Board 8 > Best Soulslike that isn't from From Software

(+) Yeah! (+)

UF8 posted...

officially as per like 2005 wikipedia entry conventions, metroidvanias are explicitly 2d platformers to differentiate it from zelda and 3d stuff (and castleroids/castloids are explicitly the term for igarashi's games circa sotn though i guess that term died a fiery death the moment igavania got coined instead)

I agree that they're fundamentally platformers but it's always seemed weird to me when people try to make it exclusively 2D, when nothing about the genre conventions requires that. There were 3D Metroidvanias back in the 90s!

It also feels really weird to exclude Metroid Prime from the definition.

"Super Metroid and Metroid Prime are different genres" --statement dreamed up by the utterly deranged

It is partly a hindsight thing though. Back after Prime's release I remember the big argument was "is it an FPS, an action/adventure game, or a first-person platformer?" The term Metroidvania wasn't super widespread then and as a result wasn't even involved in the conversation.

metroidvania and castleroid as a terms only came about in response to the castlevania gba games specifically for how they (and sotn) were like super metroid... so.

it's a funny matter since it really was a strict coincidence and igarashi seemingly didn't even know about metroid when sotn was made (he's said a lot of times that he was mostly inspired by zelda)

but it's because of that that the term has awkwardly landed into a very specific meaning for a very specific game with the design philosophy one associates with the phrase, because the term itself isn't meant to actually represent that design, as it's not meant to to be anything close to a genre to begin with. it's just a cute terminology for describing clones of a small handful of games, that's the reality

to a lesser degree the same goes for soulslike or roguelike (though the latter has certainly warped pretty far from, y'know, rogue at this point outside of pretty much just mystery dungeon)

The Surge 2

UF8 posted...

to a lesser degree the same goes for soulslike or roguelike

____like are actually good terms though because it IS referring to a specific game. If a game is like Dark Souls then yes it's a Soulslike. Roguelikes often aren't actually like Rogue, but that's another issue (and the clarity of the term does mean that Roguelite became more common). You can have Simslikes, Mariolikes, WoWlikes, whatever. It's all pretty clear.

Metroidvania is the worst term because it obscures the meaning of SOTNlike. If a game is even tangentially related to Metroid or Castlevania, they call it Metroidvania. They treat it like a union of the two genres instead of an intersection.

azuarc posted...

The devs had never played Dark Souls when they made the game.

Huh, I googled it and it looks like you're right:

https://mcvuk.com/development-news/when-we-made-hollow-knight/

That "retrieve currency on death" mechanic is pretty blatantly Dark Souls, though...

Big_Bob posted...

That "retrieve currency on death" mechanic is pretty blatantly Dark Souls, though...

I will switch sides for this point, because it seems everyone has forgotten that this vastly predates Dark Souls. Like it's as early as Diablo at least.

foolm0r0n posted...

____like are actually good terms though because it IS referring to a specific game. If a game is like Dark Souls then yes it's a Soulslike. Roguelikes often aren't actually like Rogue, but that's another issue (and the clarity of the term does mean that Roguelite became more common). You can have Simslikes, Mariolikes, WoWlikes, whatever. It's all pretty clear.

Metroidvania is the worst term because it obscures the meaning of SOTNlike. If a game is even tangentially related to Metroid or Castlevania, they call it Metroidvania. They treat it like a union of the two genres instead of an intersection.

Nah nobody calls Castlevania 1 or Metroid Prime Pinball a Metroidvania, so it's not anything related to those two series. It is becoming buzzword-y and misused but the same is true of e.g. Souls-like (it's like Souls? In which ways??)

I would also seriously struggle to define a Mario-like without narrowing it down (e.g. Mario 2-like is pretty obvious in meaning).

I think there is room for SotN-like and Super Metroid-like as terms. Chasm, Deedlit, and Timespinner are the former, while A Robot Named Fight, Axiom Verge, and Shadow Complex are the latter. But Aquaria and Hollow Knight don't fit either so there's clearly something else there.

UF8 posted...

but it's because of that that the term has awkwardly landed into a very specific meaning for a very specific game with the design philosophy one associates with the phrase, because the term itself isn't meant to actually represent that design, as it's not meant to to be anything close to a genre to begin with. it's just a cute terminology for describing clones of a small handful of games, that's the reality. if it was just that design it'd probably say zelda, or heck, even something like zork, on there

to go a little further with this since i ran out of time to edit it in at the time and i wasn't really satisfied with how i phrased this really. i feel like the true meaning of metroidvania specifically is a game that applies a nonlinear adventure game structure to an action-adventure platformer/sidescroller, with elements such as ability-based sequencing and a very strong emphasis on exploration (almost always with a minimap you fill in as you go (bonus points if it's grid-based and split into a bunch of rooms since that's just the standard)). again that's why it can't actually include things of other genres, since the very definition of it is the application of one genre in a different genre

and yeah that's why aquaria and hollow knight are fine with fitting into it

I will say I hate the way the term "roguelike" is used these days. There are ACTUAL roguelikes, like Nethack, Mystery Dungeon, and Crypt of the Necrodancer, and then there are games that have some gameplay systems shared with roguelikes that otherwise don't play anything like them that really should have a different name.

Kenri posted...

I would also seriously struggle to define a Mario-like without narrowing it down (e.g. Mario 2-like is pretty obvious in meaning).

To be honest, there were a lot of of third generation games that were clearly "Mario-likes" as opposed to being platformers. Like, Kirby's Adventure is a platformer. Felix the Cat is a "Mario-like". (Great Giana Sisters is simply a rip-off...)

Grand_Kirby posted...

I will say I hate the way the term "roguelike" is used these days. There are ACTUAL roguelikes, like Nethack, Mystery Dungeon, and Crypt of the Necrodancer, and then there are games that have some gameplay systems shared with roguelikes that otherwise don't play anything like them that really should have a different name.

the term I've usually heard is "traditional roguelike" for things like caves of qud that are actually like rogue

Kenri posted...

Nah nobody calls Castlevania 1 or Metroid Prime Pinball a Metroidvania, so it's not anything related to those two series

Exceptions that prove the rule

Kenri posted...

But Aquaria and Hollow Knight don't fit either so there's clearly something else there.

But those 2 games are wildly different. The only similarity is they are action games where you can explore. Yet gamers HATE the term Exploration Action, even though it most precisely describes the similarities between all these vastly dissimilar games.

Hollow Knight is not actually "like" Metroid or SOTN or Souls. It takes elements from all of them, but each element is only a small part of the whole. And so Exploration Action is also just a small part of its whole, which is totally fine. It just means it's a pretty unique kind of game.

Gamers are obsessed with genres being concise and complete descriptions, but sometimes it just doesn't work. In that case you can use "___like" or "___ elements" and it's as close as you can get. Using a super specific and overloaded term like Metroidvania for some perceived convenience when it only matches like 1/3rd of the meaning is the most wrong option.

I'm good with Exploration Action as a term.

Search Action is the dumb term.

Hollow Knight structurally is very much like both Super Metroid and SotN, I'd say - definitely has only trace elements of Souls on that front by comparison though.

foolm0r0n posted...

Exceptions that prove the rule

We could collaborate to list like 20 more games in the two series (mostly Castlevania though) that no one calls a Metroidvania but I'm guessing those would be exceptions too

foolm0r0n posted...

But those 2 games are wildly different. The only similarity is they are action games where you can explore. Yet gamers HATE the term Exploration Action, even though it most precisely describes the similarities between all these vastly dissimilar games.

Cat owners hate when I refer to cats as Fuzz Domesticates, even though that precisely describes them.

Like what?? Nobody likes new terms for things that have working terms already. I know you know that language prescriptivism is a losing battle.

foolm0r0n posted...

Gamers are obsessed with genres being concise and complete descriptions, but sometimes it just doesn't work.

This is literally what you're doing when you push "search action" or whatever new term though.

Yeah, using a new term because it's more useful and communicative in a common situation is prescriptivism. But forcing everyone to use an ancient term whose major value is differentiating an in-group, is actually descriptivism??

Kenri posted...

Cat owners hate when I refer to cats as Fuzz Domesticates, even though that precisely describes them.

This is actually a great analogy. "Metroidvania" is like if you wanted everyone in the world to use "cat" as the word for cat even though there's hundreds of languages each with their own word for it.

I don't even know what to call that. Lingual imperialism?

I have no idea what the French call Metroidvanias and frankly I don't care to know, so I'm really not sure what your point there is...? Like are you speaking in general or is this actually about me personally?

Kenri posted...

I have no idea what the French call Metroidvanias and frankly I don't care to know, so I'm really not sure what your point there is...? Like are you speaking in general or is this actually about me personally?

I recommend running before you get sucked into this conversation further

Agreed, don't worry about it

Always enjoy an argument over which person is being more insistent about their terminology

Xiahou_Shake posted...

Hollow Knight structurally is very much like both Super Metroid and SotN, I'd say - definitely has only trace elements of Souls on that front by comparison though.

indirectly that's kind of what i was getting into earlier actually, that the defining characteristics of titles being souls-like as opposed to any other kind of action game are fundamentally way more light to begin with. all you need there is a souls-esque vibe and combat style (the difficulty helps too obv). which is why it's a lot less difficult for something to really qualify as that compared to metroidvanias, and why so many metroidvanias can be safely said to employ these concepts without much issue (it has so few qualifying factors that it doesn't even conflict with the many qualifying aspects a metroidvania requires (unlike roguelikes which unfortunately kind of do even in more surface level definitions))

it's kind of funny that metroidvanias have so many particular quirks when it's being limited to just the broad concepts that those games had in common, when soulslikes are evaluated as such on all of the souls series' quirks and it's still ultimately just that many (mostly i suppose because unlike with metroidvanias, it's not like, inherently tied to a single form of action game (counting king's quest it's had forays into first and third person officially). i suppose some obviously do still have hangups over it being applied on other genres but the resistance is less clear than with metroidvanias (i say, aware that i'm more than marginally to blame for this stance being represented in this topic right now lol)

anyway i think that's just about everything i had to say here so to get back on topic i will say i thought about it a bit more and concluded that my favourite soulslike is obviously pokemon legends arceus

UF8 posted...

anyway i think that's just about everything i had to say here so to get back on topic i will say i thought about it a bit more and concluded that my favourite soulslike is obviously pokemon legends arceus

Lord of the Hollow is a pretty great Souls boss

UF8 posted...

indirectly that's kind of what i was getting into earlier actually, that the defining characteristics of titles being souls-like as opposed to any other kind of action game are fundamentally way more light to begin with. all you need there is a souls-esque vibe and combat style (the difficulty helps too obv). which is why it's a lot less difficult for something to really qualify as that compared to metroidvanias

Yeah this is a good point, in Hollow Knight the boss combat specifically is vaguely souls-y and is the other big reason besides aesthetic people call it a soulslike. People find it difficult, and other games have difficult bosses but the specific loop of the death -> boss run -> retrieve resources (usually) during the fight is what Souls is known for. And the combat itself is slow and deliberate - not quite in a Castlevania way - but focused on movement and boss patterns so that it is almost more of a slowed down MMX/Z. Pattern recognition, patience, and abusing the shit out of iframes - that's souls combat to me.

Genres are stupid and nobody should care.

Some people refer to dodge roll melee combat alone as Soulslike

That's true, dark souls is when there's a dodge roll. In that case my favorite soulslike is Kingdom Hearts 2 Final Mix.

HeroDelTiempo17 posted...

dark souls is when there's a dodge roll.

And the more dodge rolls there are, the Soulsier it is

I've heard people call Monster Hunter a soulslike... pretty sure it's only because of the roll.

Broke: Soulslike is when dodge roll

Woke: Soulslike is when iframes

Mario is a Soulslike.

there's a character in granblue relink that can attack while dodge rolling and has near infinite iframes, why isn't granblue on this list??

the simplest way is that Metroidvania means the same thing as "Search Action", which more accurates describes the unifying gameplay principles between Metroid and SotN.

kevwaffles posted...

Woke: Soulslike is when iframes

That's a Skullgirlslike

Hbthebattle posted...

the simplest way is that Metroidvania means the same thing as "Search Action", which more accurates describes the unifying gameplay principles between Metroid and SotN.

No, Metroidvania is SOTN + everything that is shares with Metroid. If you image a venn diagram of Metroid and SOTN, Search Action is the intersection, while Metroidvania is the full SOTN circle (which is why it's equivalent to SOTNlike).

foolm0r0n posted...

No, Metroidvania is SOTN + everything that is shares with Metroid. If you image a venn diagram of Metroid and SOTN, Search Action is the intersection, while Metroidvania is the full SOTN circle (which is why it's equivalent to SOTNlike).

Well, there's the question. What exactly is in the "SOTNlike" circle that isn't in search action?
Is it aesthetics? Are Metroidvanias inherently fantasy as opposed to science fiction - but that doesn't work, as games that ape DS CV like Timespinner lean heavier on the science fiction side. Is it the weapon type - Metroid games have mostly ranged weapons, while CV has mostly shorter ranges? That doesn't really make sense either - some "Metroidvanias" dont have combat at all!

I think it makes the most sense to limit it to gameplay elements, and in this case what separates CV from Metroid is the EXP bar - killing enemies in SotN makes you stronger always, which is not true in Super Metroid. But with that in mind, doesn't it make more sense to call "SOTNlikes" Metroidvanias/Search Action games with RPG elements? That's how we describe most other games with an exp bar but not other RPG trappings.

I understand that Metroidvania meant CV games specifically, but linguistic drift strikes with furious fervor.

RPG mechanics and slow melee combat (attacks stop movement and have animation follow through) are the main things that separate it from Metroid imo. You could definitely include aesthetics in there, since they are an underrated part of game genres, but not necessary here.

Timespinner has Metroid shooting but also RPG mechanics. It's one of the most brilliantly 50/50 expressions of that genre for that reason.

The upcoming Zau literally lets you toggle between Metroid and Castlevania combat which is pretty fun.

My personal favorite differentiator is whether bosses give you abilities or not. It has such a huge effect on the feel of SOTN vs Metroid.

I feel like a lot of CV's level design owes itself to its combat and specifically the series origins as a level-based action game that it still retains pieces of. The most obvious examples are Portrait of Ruin and Order of Ecclesia which have actual sub-levels to them. But even besides that when I'm mowing down enemies in a long hallway or slowly jumping through a clock tower dodging Medusa heads, that's all Castlevania, little if any Metroid.

Big_Bob posted...

That "retrieve currency on death" mechanic is pretty blatantly Dark Souls, though...

So EverQuest, an early MMORPG made in 1999, is a souls-like. Got it.

Hbthebattle posted...

the simplest way is that Metroidvania means the same thing as "Search Action", which more accurates describes the unifying gameplay principles between Metroid and SotN.

Tbh search action doesn't describe the genre at all. You don't really search and it's not primarily an action game. (Search action does kinda apply to Metroid Other M though.)

I could get behind something like "interconnected exploration platformer" but that's pretty wordy.

HeroDelTiempo17 posted...

But even besides that when I'm mowing down enemies in a long hallway or slowly jumping through a clock tower dodging Medusa heads, that's all Castlevania, little if any Metroid.

Both of those are classic Metroid too. Especially the latter. Vertical platforming while dodging enemies that it doesn't really pay to try to kill is Metroid's bread and butter.

https://twitter.com/LocalThunk/status/1772031808491962592

The most classic Metroid screen is a long hallway that you run through mashing X as you kill a ton of bugs, and later you get speed boost to do it even faster

It's a fundamentally different gameplay to Castlevania though since it's all about keeping your momentum and not stopping to attack

Kenri posted...

Tbh search action doesn't describe the genre at all. You don't really search and it's not primarily an action game. (Search action does kinda apply to Metroid Other M though.)

This is kinda the other problem. People don't even know what search and action mean.

foolm0r0n posted...

My personal favorite differentiator is whether bosses give you abilities or not. It has such a huge effect on the feel of SOTN vs Metroid.

Ok but there are Metroid games like Dread (and Fusion to a lesser extent) where a large portion of your abilites are gained through fighting bosses

Yeah Metroid does that, SOTN mostly doesn't

foolm0r0n posted...

The most classic Metroid screen is a long hallway that you run through mashing X as you kill a ton of bugs, and later you get speed boost to do it even faster

It's a fundamentally different gameplay to Castlevania though since it's all about keeping your momentum and not stopping to attack

Those descriptions reverse if you switch the era for each series.

Kenri posted...

Both of those are classic Metroid too. Especially the latter. Vertical platforming while dodging enemies that it doesn't really pay to try to kill is Metroid's bread and butter.

I feel like there's not much in the way of moving platform stuff in Metroid but I could be wrong. The hallways just feel different to me, maybe it's because Castlevania enemies feel like genuine threats more than Metroid where you can often avoid them.

Maybe this is the RPG mechanics talking. Castlevania encourages you to kill things for loot/xp and puts focus on monsters, Metroid is largely about resource conservation so if you can avoid something that's just better.

foolm0r0n posted...

Yeah Metroid does that, SOTN mostly doesn't

but then there are Castlevania games that do, like Aria. And some Metroid games where you get most of your abilities from statues and not bosses.