Current Events > Star Trek DS9 was great and revolutionary SPOILERS

(+) Yeah! (+)

Wasn't so episodic once the Dominion war started.
All shows do that these days. Like BB and the Mad Men and stuff.
I'm sure DS9 wasn't the first to do that. I think Dallas or something did it first but ya know. Who cares about Dallas.
And the first girl on girl kiss on tv. That was a huge deal. (In b4 zoomer bitches about right wingers being angry)Tons of perverted trekkies like myself AND the horny jocks who never watched Trek in their lives were tuning in.
And we were all disappointed. It was barely a peck.
But still.
And The Sisko was a bad ass ALPHA. Great character. None today come close.

Sisko = best captain

It only got good when the dominion war started. And they should have never introduced ezri so far in. However it's still better then Discovery. Also Pike, Picard, and Janeway are the best captains.

I said this a while back, Deep Space Nine was Breaking Bad before Breaking Bad. It has everything. Great characters, great story, lots of funny and serious moments, etc. I haven't watched the show in 5 years I'll probably re watch it soon

If you have a chance, watch Babylon 5. It feels like season 3-7 of DS9.

https://youtu.be/hyzlVpiypOM?feature=shared

Its goofy. I dont think I like it but am glad it exists. I never finished the show myself, just didnt have time to when it was on Netflix. Garak is definitely my favorite part of the show, overall my favorite after TNG.

[LFAQs-redacted-quote]

Definitely watch Babylon 5.

[LFAQs-redacted-quote]


It's great. The first season has a ton of world building, and a few episodes I skip upon rewatch, but it's amazing. DS9 edges it out just a bit, but that's my inner trek fan coming through.

Section 31 related episodes and dozens of episodes are some of the best in TV history even to this day Like on the same level as episodes in season 5 of
Breaking Bad

RadDude9000 posted...

And the first girl on girl kiss on tv.

...LA Law did it more than 4 years earlier...
DS9 was like the fifth show doing it.
...on American telly, of course.

emblem-man posted...

Definitely watch Babylon 5.

It's good but DS9 is way better

[LFAQs-redacted-quote]


I can't believe this but will wonders never cease!

Me and ImAMarvel actually agree on something. I too think Move Along Home is a fairly decent episode and also like the bit where they sing "Allimaraine"! I never got the hate for it and could give you a top twenty worse episodes than it!

Thud posted...

Sisko = best captain

Sisko gives Picard a run for his money as worst Trek Captain. Even the creators could see that Sisko was crap which is why they turned him into Hawk from Spenser For Hire.

As for the topic at hand DS9 is the worst Trek programmme ever. I just do not understand what people see in this garbage!

Here is my post I did on Quora on why DS9 is garbage:

1. Oh look lets plagiarize and copy Babylon 5 an idea that we the execs at Paramount originally rejected after J. Michael Straczynski proposed it to us in 1991.
2. Lets set it on a Space Station with the characters not going any bloody where thus alienating all the fans of TOS and TNG who grew up with the idea that Star Trek was about a Captain on a Starship travelling The Galaxy not being stuck on a Space Station not going any bloody where.
3. Quick lets bring in the Defiant to try and win back the fans of TOS and TNG and it worked! Proving yet again a Starship is the way to go over some shit Space Station.
4. Only a Commander can be in charge of a Spacestation! Quick lets make Sisko Captain to again try win over fans of TOS and TNG! Thus changing the original premise of the series.
5. The cast and crew (with the exception of Jadzia, Quark and Garak (OBrien doesnt count as he is a superior TNG crewman)) were so crap and pathetic that the creators freely admit that Worf was brought in to try and win back ratings and viewers.
6. Sisko was so shit as Captain it was unbelievable. Even the creators could see just how crap he was which is why they tried to change him in to Hawk a character Avery Brooks played in the TV shows Spencer: For Hire and A Man Called Hawk.
7. I agree with one commentator when he said that The Dominion story arc killed Star Trek. It made absolutely fantastic TV but then having to see Janeway and Archer go back to the old ways of trying to talk your way out of a fight just seemed dull and boring in comparison.
8. Another way The Dominion Arc almost killed Star Trek was that Seasons 5, 6 and 7 especially Seasons 6 and 7 suffered terribly because of it. Ill explain. take season 6 after the opening 6 parter only 3 episodes dealt with The Dominion War which meant the rest of the season was filled with utter shit, drivel, fluff and filler episodes. Same for Season 7. It is the only way to explain utter gems and Classics(note extreme sarcasm) in You Are Cordially Invited, Far Beyond The Stars (never watched by me never will), Profit And Lace, The Sound Of Her Voice, Times Orphan, Take Me Out To The Holosuite (Never watched by me and never will) (Oh look we are currently in the middle of a war that we are getting our asses kicked in what shall we do? Oh I know lets invite a Vulcan Captain to a game of that Americanized version of Rounders.), Badda-Bing Badda Bang, Prodigal Daughter (Even the creators apologized for that mess) and Chimera.
9. They destroyed Gul Dukat and Kai Winn by turning them into moustache twirling cartoon villains.
10. I hated the Bajorans and all their Prophets and Pah-Wraiths shit and nonsense. The Sisko this and The Sisko that oh shut the fuck up. That got boring after the first two episodes. Also why was Sisko emissary when it was both him and Dax that discovered the wormhole.
11. What You Leave Behind was a terrible way to end the series. They build up the amazing Dominion War Arc then rush through it in less than 20 minutes just so they could put a closure to all that Dukat, Winn Pah-Wraiths shit and nonsense and then the creators realized they had to pad it out to 88 miutes so added all that goodbye to the cast crap. So glad Voyager got it right.

Out with the Dominion episodes (Sacrifice Of Angels is my all time favourite episode of Trek) The Mirror episodes (except for the garbage Emperors New Cloak) and Trials And Tribbleations DS9 was just pure garbage of the first order.

[LFAQs-redacted-quote]

I don't particularly get the hate for it either. Don't get me wrong, it's not very good, but it's like an average first season of Star Trek episode. The singsong rhyme was annoying, but it was supposed to be annoying. And I even got a laugh at the end of the episode when the aliens look at Quark like he's a moron for thinking they were going to kill everyone and say, "It was only a game."

Oh god someone mentioned DS9 being good and Cassandra is going hard against it already

Kaldrenthebold posted...

Oh god someone mentioned DS9 being good and Cassandra is going hard against it already

Oh, I thought they got banned but lmao I guess they blocked me.

emblem-man posted...

Definitely watch Babylon 5.

Absolutely. Just be prepared for the entire first season to be mostly episodic for the purpose of world building. They are mostly good, just not as awesome and heavily story arced as the later seasons.

CassandraCroft posted...

I can't believe this but will wonders never cease!

Me and ImAMarvel actually agree on something. I too think Move Along Home is a fairly decent episode and also like the bit where they sing "Allimaraine"! I never got the hate for it and could give you a top twenty worse episodes than it!



Sisko gives Picard a run for his money as worst Trek Captain. Even the creators could see that Sisko was crap which is why they turned him into Hawk from Spenser For Hire.

As for the topic at hand DS9 is the worst Trek programmme ever. I just do not understand what people see in this garbage!

Here is my post I did on Quora on why DS9 is garbage:

1. Oh look lets plagiarize and copy Babylon 5 an idea that we the execs at Paramount originally rejected after J. Michael Straczynski proposed it to us in 1991.
2. Lets set it on a Space Station with the characters not going any bloody where thus alienating all the fans of TOS and TNG who grew up with the idea that Star Trek was about a Captain on a Starship travelling The Galaxy not being stuck on a Space Station not going any bloody where.
3. Quick lets bring in the Defiant to try and win back the fans of TOS and TNG and it worked! Proving yet again a Starship is the way to go over some shit Space Station.
4. Only a Commander can be in charge of a Spacestation! Quick lets make Sisko Captain to again try win over fans of TOS and TNG! Thus changing the original premise of the series.
5. The cast and crew (with the exception of Jadzia, Quark and Garak (OBrien doesnt count as he is a superior TNG crewman)) were so crap and pathetic that the creators freely admit that Worf was brought in to try and win back ratings and viewers.
6. Sisko was so shit as Captain it was unbelievable. Even the creators could see just how crap he was which is why they tried to change him in to Hawk a character Avery Brooks played in the TV shows Spencer: For Hire and A Man Called Hawk.
7. I agree with one commentator when he said that The Dominion story arc killed Star Trek. It made absolutely fantastic TV but then having to see Janeway and Archer go back to the old ways of trying to talk your way out of a fight just seemed dull and boring in comparison.
8. Another way The Dominion Arc almost killed Star Trek was that Seasons 5, 6 and 7 especially Seasons 6 and 7 suffered terribly because of it. Ill explain. take season 6 after the opening 6 parter only 3 episodes dealt with The Dominion War which meant the rest of the season was filled with utter shit, drivel, fluff and filler episodes. Same for Season 7. It is the only way to explain utter gems and Classics(note extreme sarcasm) in You Are Cordially Invited, Far Beyond The Stars (never watched by me never will), Profit And Lace, The Sound Of Her Voice, Times Orphan, Take Me Out To The Holosuite (Never watched by me and never will) (Oh look we are currently in the middle of a war that we are getting our asses kicked in what shall we do? Oh I know lets invite a Vulcan Captain to a game of that Americanized version of Rounders.), Badda-Bing Badda Bang, Prodigal Daughter (Even the creators apologized for that mess) and Chimera.
9. They destroyed Gul Dukat and Kai Winn by turning them into moustache twirling cartoon villains.
10. I hated the Bajorans and all their Prophets and Pah-Wraiths shit and nonsense. The Sisko this and The Sisko that oh shut the fuck up. That got boring after the first two episodes. Also why was Sisko emissary when it was both him and Dax that discovered the wormhole.
11. What You Leave Behind was a terrible way to end the series. They build up the amazing Dominion War Arc then rush through it in less than 20 minutes just so they could put a closure to all that Dukat, Winn Pah-Wraiths shit and nonsense and then the creators realized they had to pad it out to 88 miutes so added all that goodbye to the cast crap. So glad Voyager got it right.
Out with the Dominion episodes (Sacrifice Of Angels is my all time favourite episode of Trek) The Mirror episodes (except for the garbage Emperors New Cloak) and Trials And Tribbleations DS9 was just pure garbage of the first order.

Good god, shut the fuck up. This reads like worlds most annoying youtuber who overuses adjectives and hyperbole for the sack of padding the length of the video because at the core they don't really have anything interesting to say.

Someone tell Cassie to unblock me, I enjoy seeing their unhinged rants and I can tell they're stinking up this topic with 'em.

pegusus123456 posted...

Someone tell Cassie to unblock me, I enjoy seeing their unhinged rants and I can tell they're stinking up this topic with 'em.

Me, too

DS9 is great, but NOT revolutionary. And it's not so much that B5 is similar to DS9, as much as DS9 is an inferior copy of B5. The creator of B5 presented its concept to the company that created DS9. They said no, but tried to copy it. Except, they didn't really "get" it until B5 was broadcast and the long-running plot arcs became apparent. That's why seasons 3+ of DS9 are when it finally gets good. They had to see B5 in action to copy it properly.

I love J. Michael Straczynski's work but he's full of shit.

Trying to claim he was ripped off because he invented the concept of a TV show set on a space station is stupid and reeks of bitterness. Dude literally pretending he never saw Space: 1999.

That aside. Deep Space 9 is better than Bab 5 in every single way except continuity.

Dudes with a straight face gonna claim The Shadow War, terrible CGI, Delenn, Sheridan being saved by Deus Ex Machina is better than In the Pale Moonlght, Dr Bashir, Odo.

The acting, the plots, the effects, the dilemmas, the setting. Deep Space 9 is just all round a better show. Gul Dukat has more depth than the entire Centauri race.

Especially after Sinclair left. G'kar was carrying Babylon 5 hard.

It was a good show but DS9 was a great show. Claiming otherwise is just pure hipser. Next will be claiming Crusade was better than Voyager

CassandraCroft posted...

They destroyed Gul Dukat and Kai Winn by turning them into moustache twirling cartoon villains.

Not sure how I feel about Kai Winn, but the intent was for Gul Dukat to be evil. That was achieved. I will say though after his daughter died, the character became a lot less interesting. Less screentime and just felt listless/aimless beyond a need to hurt Bajor.

pegusus123456 posted...

Someone tell Cassie to unblock me, I enjoy seeing their unhinged rants and I can tell they're stinking up this topic with 'em.

They said:

Sisko gives Picard a run for his money as worst Trek Captain. Even the creators could see that Sisko was crap which is why they turned him into Hawk from Spenser For Hire.

As for the topic at hand DS9 is the worst Trek programmme ever. I just do not understand what people see in this garbage!

Here is my post I did on Quora on why DS9 is garbage:

Oh look lets plagiarize and copy Babylon 5 an idea that we the execs at Paramount originally rejected after J. Michael Straczynski proposed it to us in 1991.
Lets set it on a Space Station with the characters not going any bloody where thus alienating all the fans of TOS and TNG who grew up with the idea that Star Trek was about a Captain on a Starship travelling The Galaxy not being stuck on a Space Station not going any bloody where.
Quick lets bring in the Defiant to try and win back the fans of TOS and TNG and it worked! Proving yet again a Starship is the way to go over some shit Space Station.
Only a Commander can be in charge of a Spacestation! Quick lets make Sisko Captain to again try win over fans of TOS and TNG! Thus changing the original premise of the series.
The cast and crew (with the exception of Jadzia, Quark and Garak (OBrien doesnt count as he is a superior TNG crewman)) were so crap and pathetic that the creators freely admit that Worf was brought in to try and win back ratings and viewers.
Sisko was so shit as Captain it was unbelievable. Even the creators could see just how crap he was which is why they tried to change him in to Hawk a character Avery Brooks played in the TV shows Spencer: For Hire and A Man Called Hawk.
I agree with one commentator when he said that The Dominion story arc killed Star Trek. It made absolutely fantastic TV but then having to see Janeway and Archer go back to the old ways of trying to talk your way out of a fight just seemed dull and boring in comparison.
Another way The Dominion Arc almost killed Star Trek was that Seasons 5, 6 and 7 especially Seasons 6 and 7 suffered terribly because of it. Ill explain. take season 6 after the opening 6 parter only 3 episodes dealt with The Dominion War which meant the rest of the season was filled with utter shit, drivel, fluff and filler episodes. Same for Season 7. It is the only way to explain utter gems and Classics(note extreme sarcasm) in You Are Cordially Invited, Far Beyond The Stars (never watched by me never will), Profit And Lace, The Sound Of Her Voice, Times Orphan, Take Me Out To The Holosuite (Never watched by me and never will) (Oh look we are currently in the middle of a war that we are getting our asses kicked in what shall we do? Oh I know lets invite a Vulcan Captain to a game of that Americanized version of Rounders.), Badda-Bing Badda Bang, Prodigal Daughter (Even the creators apologized for that mess) and Chimera.
They destroyed Gul Dukat and Kai Winn by turning them into moustache twirling cartoon villains.
I hated the Bajorans and all their Prophets and Pah-Wraiths shit and nonsense. The Sisko this and The Sisko that oh shut the fuck up. That got boring after the first two episodes. Also why was Sisko emissary when it was both him and Dax that discovered the wormhole.
What You Leave Behind was a terrible way to end the series. They build up the amazing Dominion War Arc then rush through it in less than 20 minutes just so they could put a closure to all that Dukat, Winn Pah-Wraiths shit and nonsense and then the creators realized they had to pad it out to 88 miutes so added all that goodbye to the cast crap. So glad Voyager got it right.

Out with the Dominion episodes (Sacrifice Of Angels is my all time favourite episode of Trek) The Mirror episodes (except for the garbage Emperors New Cloak) and Trials And Tribbleations DS9 was just pure garbage of the first order.

When I rewatched DS9 a few years ago "Far Beyond the Stars" hit harder for me than it did when it originally aired. Here's a show from the 90's about a character in the 24th century experiencing a vision of the 50's that deals with issues we're still dealing with today.

And I don't think I have to say how good "The Visitor" is. Avery Brooks and Cirroc Lofton both do a great job and Tony Todd is on another level in that episode.

I could go on about DS9 episodes I love but I'll stop there for now.

Charged151 posted...

Not sure how I feel about Kai Winn, but the intent was for Gul Dukat to be evil. That was achieved. I will say though after his daughter died, the character became a lot less interesting. Less screentime and just felt listless.

I mean Kai Winn was always an evil villain

I 100% agree on Gul Dukat tho. The writers were pissed off about how deep and complex he had gotten and the positive fan response to him so they basically went "Fuck you! He's just pure insane genocdial wizard thing now!" and it sucked.

That's bad writing and the downside of the last season of DS9.

The same thing happened with Spike in Buffy and instead of making him kill babies they went whole hog with him and made him the best character in the show. Pissing off Joss Whedon so much he shoved James Masters against the wall and screamed that he was going to kill him.

Oh, that's boring, that's just the same copy/pasted response they always use

UnfairRepresent posted...

I 100% agree on Gul Dukat tho. The writers were pissed off about how deep and complex he had gotten and the positive fan response to him so they basically went "Fuck you! He's just pure insane genocdial wizard thing now!" and it sucked.

I forget the name of the episode, but SFDebris made a good point about the episode where Gul Dukat has a nervous breakdown and finally admits he loathes Bajorans: that was the climax of his character arc and the only problem with the episode is that he doesn't die in it.

I mean I agree that it would be "less" bad if he had died there

But "Hey it turns out he just hates Bajorians" is TOS level writing. Dukat was more than that. He sacrificed everything he had worked for, his career, his wealth, his home, his family just to embrace his half Bajorian daughter and even forgave her for betraying the entire Cardassian race.

Just go "Nah he's just wizard Hitler with fire aliens lol" is such a step down

I love the scene where Sisko and Dukat are discussing their sons and Sisko is trying to use their shared experience of responsibilities getting in the way of family as a chance to bond. And Dukat just throws it back in his face and goes "All my son will know is that the Federation took his father away on his birthday!"

That's a great character. Dukat is so delightful as a villain because he is capable of knowing right and wrong, he's intelligent and he has demonstrated that he can do the right thing... But then he still often does the wrong thing knowingly and is bitter and vindictive and proud. You know? Like a real person.

CassandraCroft posted...

(never watched by me never will)

It's like 45 minutes. Surely you can hate watch it and then spend several more hours ranting about it.

UnfairRepresent posted...

I mean Kai Winn was always an evil villain

There was more going on with her character than that, but almost all qualities of the character were negative. Being easily manipulated into almost bringing the Cardassians back to Bajor...embracing the Pah-Wraiths...making love to Gul Dukat. I remember her for always being played as a fiddle by other villains. She did save Sisko's son on one occasion though... IDK. She just never did anything for me and I never was all that pleased with her getting screentime.

UnfairRepresent posted...

I 100% agree on Gul Dukat tho. The writers were pissed off about how deep and complex he had gotten and the positive fan response to him so they basically went "Fuck you! He's just pure insane genocdial wizard thing now!" and it sucked.

That's bad writing and the downside of the last season of DS9.

We are in agreement. He was easily one of the best characters the show had in terms of depth...then he had a weird twist at the end which didn't make all that much sense. Interesting how the man who killed his daughter, Damar, actually became a significantly better character after this happened. He didn't survive the show's ending though.

UnfairRepresent posted...

The same thing happened with Spike in Buffy and instead of making him kill babies they went whole hog with him and made him the best character in the show. Pissing off Joss Whedon so much he shoved James Masters against the wall and screamed that he was going to kill him.

I never watched that show, but that is funny in a sad kind of way.

I am doing a rewatch right now. It is still so damn good.

This is the first time my wife has watched it. I envy her seeing it for the first time.

Whatever happened to that guy doing the watchthrough topic anyway?

I get leaving off though, he went hard on those posts. Like full-fledged reviews

You mean me? Too much uni work, not enough free time or energy for it. Plan on resuming it when I get my degree later in the year.

mystic_belmont posted...

If you have a chance, watch Babylon 5. It feels like season 3-7 of DS9.

I've heard good things about it. If it is like Deep Space Nine, I'll probably end up liking it.

splodeymissile posted...

You mean me? Too much uni work, not enough free time or energy for it. Plan on resuming it when I get my degree later in the year.

Ah, I couldn't remember your name. Good to know everything's alright.

pegusus123456 posted...

Whatever happened to that guy doing the watchthrough topic anyway?

I get leaving off though, he went hard on those posts. Like full-fledged reviews

He is post #22.

CassandraCroft posted...

I agree with one commentator when he said that The Dominion story arc killed Star Trek. It made absolutely fantastic TV but then having to see Janeway and Archer go back to the old ways of trying to talk your way out of a fight just seemed dull and boring in comparison.

I thought that was handled really well. You had a slow burn of the coming conflict as early as Season 2 onward until the war finally broke out significantly later. Lots of memorable moments. Heck, we finally got to see what the Breen look like!

As for what killed Star Trek (for a while), that would probably have been Enterprise Season 3. The whole Temporal Cold War was meh as it was, but the whole Xindi arc was all kinds of terrible. Sad the show didn't make it past Season 4 though. The show runners were planning to show the Federation-Romulan conflict...and we never learned who "the Future Guy" was. Apparently he was planned to be a messed up version of Captain Archer somehow, but we'll never see it in action.

All deep space nine did was copy Babylon five's homework.

Kidding as both were great shows

The Delta Flyers podcast started doing a rewatch/review of DS9 now that they finished Voyager. Each week Terry Farrell or Armin Shimmerman join as well.
A fun way to rewatch the series.

philsov posted...

It's like 45 minutes. Surely you can hate watch it and then spend several more hours ranting about it.

Been watching DS9 for over 30 years!

Saw the pilot episode day 1 when I was on vaction in the US in 1993! Had the entire series on VHS!

So if I have never watched it explain my post!

Oh look what do I say is my all time favourite episode of Trek? Oh yeah I do believe it is Season 6 episode 6 Sacrifice Of Angels! I adore The Mirror Universe episodes, Trials And Tribblations and another episode I adore is the season 3 episode Civil Defence the one where this counter insurgency programe is triggered and traps the crew in various locations on the station

Oh look we have virtually destroyed the fantastic Dukat what shall we do with him next? Oh yeah turn him into a lame Bajoran named Angil and with Winn get them to release The Pah-Wraths! Utter crap!

Oh lets all go around grabbing everyones ears to check their "Pagh" whatever that crap was!

The Bajorans were the worst alien race ever created for Star Trek! Even the Kazon are better than The Bajorans.

I love to watch my favourite scenes on Youtube

Come on then I double dog dare you to tell me why you like DS9? Or are you just another one jumping on the "we love DS9 bandwagon" without ever actually seeing the programme!

Been watching DS9 for over 30 years!

Saw the pilot episode day 1 when I was on vaction in the US in 1993! Had the entire series on VHS!

So if I have never watched it explain my post!

Oh look what do I say is my all time favourite episode of Trek? Oh yeah I do believe it is Season 6 episode 6 Sacrifice Of Angels! I adore The Mirror Universe episodes, Trials And Tribblations and another episode I adore is the season 3 episode Civil Defence the one where this counter insurgency programe is triggered and traps the crew in various locations on the station

Oh look we have virtually destroyed the fantastic Dukat what shall we do with him next? Oh yeah turn him into a lame Bajoran named Angil and with Winn get them to release The Pah-Wraths! Utter crap!

Oh lets all go around grabbing everyones ears to check their "Pagh" whatever that crap was!

The Bajorans were the worst alien race ever created for Star Trek! Even the Kazon are better than The Bajorans.

I love to watch my favourite scenes on Youtube

Come on then I double dog dare you to tell me why you like DS9? Or are you just another one jumping on the "we love DS9 bandwagon" without ever actually seeing the programme!

@pegusus123456 will tell you why he likes DS9

But you'd have to unblock him first to see.

Im copying over a post I made on the Star Trek board a few years back specifically talking about Dukat post-Waltz.

Alright, so this is coming from probably the only person in existence who actually liked the post-Waltz Dukat, and saw it as both a natural evolution of his character and a very good way to loop him into Sisko's plot with the Prophets and the Pah-Wraiths.

Dukat's rationalization for The Occupation wasn't limited to just Waltz. Bits and pieces of it were shown throughout the run of DS9 beforehand, especially with regards to how he thought he was a much more benevolent overseer than he was being given credit for. He thought he deserved the love of the Bajoran people for cutting back on the harsh punishments, providing more food, etc. Hell, he had a whole conversation about it with Weyoun during their stint on the station, where he asked with all sincerity why the Bajorans didn't have a statue erected in his honor. He'd always been delusional about his role in The Occupation, Waltz was just Sisko finally confronting him about it in a far more blunt manner than he'd been able to for the past five years. So as far as whether I liked Dukat's rationalization? Yeah, it fits perfectly with the character we'd seen for the previous five years, no question.

As for the aftermath, Dukat essentially gave in, and decided that if everyone was going to see him as the villain no matter what, then he might as well finally do something (in his mind) to deserve it. If he can't get the respect of Sisko as a friendly rival, he'll get that respect by achieving, to paraphrase a comment he made to Weyoun before they lost DS9, "A true victory by making Sisko realize it was wrong to oppose him in the first place. To force him to acknowledge his greatness." If he can't get the love of the Bajoran people by treating them marginally better than a brutish dictator would, he'll make them love him through the power of the Pah-Wraith. It may have been madness that drove him to that point, but everything after Waltz, to me, seems just as intelligent and cunning as ever. And that shows far more than his madness in future episodes after Waltz.

I don't think it was just the loss of Ziyal that drove him to that point either, it was more the straw that broke the camel's back. He was already losing it when he went looking for her during the evacuation of the station, ignoring Damar's pleas to leave as soon as possible. He had victory within his grasp, and it slipped through his fingers in mere seconds; the Cardassian people would almost certainly not back him after such a defeat, and the Dominion likely wouldn't allow him to keep his position as head of the Cardassian government for much longer either, if not outright execute him. Literally all he has at this point is Ziyal, there's nothing left. Hell, he even forgave her as soon as she admitted to playing a part in his defeat, and clung to her even after Damar shot her despite his insistence earlier that any traitor would deserve no mercy. Losing the battle nearly broke him, and losing Ziyal finally pushed him over the edge.

This is also why I like his involvement with the Pah-Wraiths. Up until now, the Bajoran religion was nothing but superstition, or at best primitive Bajoran culture trying to make sense of what are nothing but aliens dwelling in a wormhole. He paid them little mind until they handed him his greatest military defeat, at the behest of their Emissary Sisko. In this case, it was he that was forced to acknowledge the greatness of the Prophets, and see that they truly were a source of power. But, with at least a passing knowledge of Bajoran culture, he was able to find the Pah-Wraiths. And if they were as powerful as the Prophets and something that the Prophets themselves seemed to fear, then of course it makes sense to ally with them. If the Prophets were more powerful than even the Dominion military might, and the Pah-Wraiths as their opposition were equally powerful, then of course Dukat is going to pursue that power. Especially if it lets him deal a blow against both Kira, who he interacts with more than any Bajoran and is a deeply religious person that he wants to hurt for all the times she spurned him, and Sisko, the Emissary of the Prophets and probably the person who he wants to respect him more than anyone.

mystic_belmont posted...

If you have a chance, watch Babylon 5. It feels like season 3-7 of DS9.

emblem-man posted...

Definitely watch Babylon 5.

https://gamefaqs.gamespot.com/a/forum/8/8fdfa6d0.jpg

philsov posted...

It's like 45 minutes. Surely you can hate watch it and then spend several more hours ranting about it.

Oh look no response I see!

Just what I thought another little casual jumping on the "We love DS9 bandwagon" without ever seeing it!

One thing I did love about DS9 was the massive Starship battles! It is the only thing that DS9 put TNG and Voyager to shame with!

***WARNING MASSIVE SPOILERS AHEAD***

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dbGs93JFfb0

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=owP8rodvksA

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ECfOA6BBsjw

That is DS9 and Star Trek at its finest!

For sheer action episodes DS9 was second to none (TNG, Voyager and Enterprise had their moments but cant compare to DS9)!

But it was everything else about the programme that let it down badly!

Ultimately, Trek can't do a "people suck" plotline. The entire point of the Trek universe is that everyone can be redeemed, or maybe we just have to see their POV. It's Quaker SF. TNG was basically "talking beats fighting". The entire point of Voyager is "Starfleet doesn't cheat". The entire point of Disco is "the far future sucked until they were reminded about Federation ideals". The entire point of Picard is "no one Treks as hard as Picard, and that's why they can't win". Honestly, I love it. But B5's real TV innovation was telling a story where everybody is kind of terrible. If you win, you've sacrificed so much, you can't enjoy it. By the end of B5, we didn't even want the good guys to win. That's not a Trek story, but it was still great SF, and it was very rare at the time. It set the stage for shows like Kirkman's Walking Dead and Invincible.

UnfairRepresent posted...

But "Hey it turns out he just hates Bajorians" is TOS level writing. Dukat was more than that. He sacrificed everything he had worked for, his career, his wealth, his home, his family just to embrace his half Bajorian daughter and even forgave her for betraying the entire Cardassian race.

Loving his daughter doesn't mean he didn't hate Bajorans. Also, he literally tried to kill her in In Purgatory's Shadow.