Current Events > Star Trek DS9 was great and revolutionary SPOILERS

(+) Yeah! (+)

Kaldrenthebold posted...

However, the beach resort planet episode was quite great

Oh very much disagree. It's one of the worst. Jadzia refuses to take his concerns seriously and address their relationship. And Worf gets pissy and dabbles in terrorism because other people are having fun. On a resort planet.

Sir_Will posted...

Oh very much disagree. It's one of the worst. Jadzia refuses to take his concerns seriously and address their relationship. And Worf gets pissy and dabbles in terrorism because other people are having fun. On a resort planet.

Worf in DS9 was a huge step down from TNG. He was pretty much insufferable that entire episode. Neither of them dealt with the problem in a healthy way but at least Jadzia was trying to have a good tike on the planet. Unlike Worf who was a total dick and it wasn't even just this episode. He was also a huge asshole to Ezri. Nothing about his actions were "honorable"

DS9 had Garak, he carried the show.

Nirvanas_Nox posted...

Worf in DS9 was a huge step down from TNG. He was pretty much insufferable that entire episode. Neither of them dealt with the problem in a healthy way but at least Jadzia was trying to have a good tike on the planet. Unlike Worf who was a total dick and it wasn't even just this episode. He was also a huge asshole to Ezri. Nothing about his actions were "honorable"

I respectfully disagree here. This specific episode and Profit and Lace are mostly unwatchable, but DS9 Worf got so much more character development than he did in TNG. TNG Worf was great, but he was there mostly so Picard could tell him to calm down and be more diplomatic or to get beat up to establish how big a threat something was.

In DS9, there were so many great episodes about Worf growing into command and walking the divide between two worlds.

If we're complaining about Worf, the thing I hated the most was what he did to Kurn. I have a problem with that episode in general because everyone in the episode is looking for a quick fix for what Kurn is going through. The choice Worf makes at the end to erase Kurn's memory seems more about not wanting to deal with Kurn anymore than actually helping him.

Contrast that to "It's Only a Paper Moon" which is a brilliant episode with a fantastic ending that understands there's not a quick fix for getting over trauma. It takes time and it takes support.

Westernwolf4 posted...

TNG Worf was great, but he was there mostly so Picard could tell him to calm down and be more diplomatic or to get beat up to establish how big a threat something was.

Yeah... TNG Worf was beat up enough to establish other threats enough that it literally became a Trope...The Worf Effect.
https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/TheWorfEffect

DS9 Word on the other hand got to beat up a Gauntlet of Jem'Hadar and saved the Federation by defeating Gowron in a duel to stop interfering in the Dominion War...doubly so after Gowron ruined Kurn's life by seizing the House of Mogh's lands and titles, and publicly expelling Kurn from the High Council in disgrace.

Basically, I'm glad he finally got shown to be a great warrior, which was more rare in TNG.

For what it is worth though, that tropical planet episode was awful, with Worf being the worst part of it.

UnsteadyOwl posted...

If we're complaining about Worf, the thing I hated the most was what he did to Kurn. I have a problem with that episode in general because everyone in the episode is looking for a quick fix for what Kurn is going through. The choice Worf makes at the end to erase Kurn's memory seems more about not wanting to deal with Kurn anymore than actually helping him.

Kurn lost everything thanks to Gowron taking out his frustrations on Kurn over Worf refusing to fight in the Klingon War against the Cardassians. Kurn tried to adapt to a new life aboard DS9, but couldn't get the Klingon honor nonsense out of his system, since he, unlike Worf, actually grew up under it. Then he killed another Klingon and just couldn't go on, ready to off himself to escape all this "honor" nonsense. Honestly a tragic tale. Reminds me of the member of Q's race who killed himself due to the pain he was in in Voyager.

I'm puzzled on if Worf and Jadzia (the latter came up with the idea) to erase Kurn's memories was the right decision, but it beats Kurn offing himself. A better lesson would have probably been for Kurn to learn to life with what happened...but that's not the route the writers went with. I didn't take it as Worf wanting to get rid of Kurn at any rate.

UnsteadyOwl posted...

Contrast that to "It's Only a Paper Moon" which is a brilliant episode with a fantastic ending that understands there's not a quick fix for getting over trauma. It takes time and it takes support.

I like that episode as well, but I don't think the situations are that comparable. Nog lost his leg and had PTSD. He still had friends/family/home/etc though. Most of all, his upbringing didn't have an analog to all the "honor" nonsense Kurn was dealing with, who also lost his position as well as home.

UnsteadyOwl posted...

If we're complaining about Worf, the thing I hated the most was what he did to Kurn. I have a problem with that episode in general because everyone in the episode is looking for a quick fix for what Kurn is going through. The choice Worf makes at the end to erase Kurn's memory seems more about not wanting to deal with Kurn anymore than actually helping him.

Contrast that to "It's Only a Paper Moon" which is a brilliant episode with a fantastic ending that understands there's not a quick fix for getting over trauma. It takes time and it takes support.

Different ppl, with different stories, different situations, and far different attitudes towards their predicaments. Kurn was fully capable and willing to off himself. Rom was nowhere near the danger Kurn was. Rom had an entire support system and all the tools needed to thrive. Rom had a lot of trauma, but it was clear that his situation simply needed time. Kurn had essentially lost everything and his only choice was to live as an enemy to the world that he never chose to leave.

Are we also forgetting how much of a shit father he was in both TNG and DS9?

Nirvanas_Nox posted...

Are we also forgetting how much of a shit father he was in both TNG and DS9?

You know I just realized he totally could have turned up and been a character in Picard.

Charged151 posted...

Kurn lost everything thanks to Gowron taking out his frustrations on Kurn over Worf refusing to fight in the Klingon War against the Cardassians. Kurn tried to adapt to a new life aboard DS9, but couldn't get the Klingon honor nonsense out of his system, since he, unlike Worf, actually grew up under it. Then he killed another Klingon and just couldn't go on, ready to off himself to escape all this "honor" nonsense. Honestly a tragic tale. Reminds me of the member of Q's race who killed himself due to the pain he was in in Voyager.

I'm puzzled on if Worf and Jadzia (the latter came up with the idea) to erase Kurn's memories was the right decision, but it beats Kurn offing himself. A better lesson would have probably been for Kurn to learn to life with what happened...but that's not the route the writers went with. I didn't take it as Worf wanting to get rid of Kurn at any rate.

I like that episode as well, but I don't think the situations are that comparable. Nog lost his leg and had PTSD. He still had friends/family/home/etc though. Most of all, his upbringing didn't have an analog to all the "honor" nonsense Kurn was dealing with, who also lost his position as well as home.

Maybe it's because I'm seeing it more as an episode about depression than an episode about Klingon honor.

What I would have liked to see was for Worf to say to Kurn that he can stay with him on DS9 as long as he needs. Just because Kurn didn't adjust to life on the station right away doesn't mean he never could. Kurn did have family if Worf was willing to be there for him and I'm sure there are plenty of others on the station who would have supported him as well.

If Kurn refused and it was clear that intention was to go get himself killed then maybe the memory wipe could be a last resort. It felt like the story was missing that step. As is it came off more like "We tried a few things, he's not immediately better, so let's just rob him of his identity and be done with it."

Nirvanas_Nox posted...

Are we also forgetting how much of a shit father he was in both TNG and DS9?

Worf got done dirty with that whole storyline, particularly at the start, but I thought he was a better character by the end of it. K'Ehleyr doesn't tell Worf he is a father until Alexander is born, then K'Ehleyr dies shortly after telling him. Worf didn't want Alexander to grow up with the shame he was feeling (due to being a dishonored Klingon at the time) and thought he would have a better life on Earth with his own foster parents, which happened for a time. Alexander then came back to the Enterprise after his foster parents (or grand parents I guess) said they were too old to raise a Klingon. Worf and him had an OK relationship I guess, with it becoming better after the Episode "Firstborn". After the Enterprise-D bites it in the movie, Alexander goes back to Earth as Worf thought he would be happier there, as Alexander didn't want to become a Klingon warrior. Alexander decides to be a warrior anyway in DS9 and now does act like he was abandoned...although Worf does decide to help him be a Klingon warrior. Alexander does fit in on the ship he is serving on though, being considered a "good luck charm". Alexander is also present at Word's wedding to Jadzia, showing that their relationship is patched up.

While rocky at times, I say things worked out between the two of them. It added depth to Worf's character at any rate.

Nirvanas_Nox posted...

Worf in DS9 was a huge step down from TNG.

Eh, I don't really agree. I think he generally got more interesting on DS9. But he still had some bad moments/storylines.

Nirvanas_Nox posted...

He was also a huge asshole to Ezri. Nothing about his actions were "honorable"

I'm mixed. I do think he was too harsh but I also get he was upset. At first. I did not like them rehashing their relationship in the large finale arc. That was bad and whiney all around.

Nirvanas_Nox posted...

Neither of them dealt with the problem in a healthy way but at least Jadzia was trying to have a good tike on the planet.

To be fair, she's the one who forced them to go there despite it really not being his kind of thing. And she said it was to help their relationship, which she didn't do.

Westernwolf4 posted...

In DS9, there were so many great episodes about Worf growing into command and walking the divide between two worlds.

And he actually got a win some fistfights!

UnsteadyOwl posted...

If we're complaining about Worf, the thing I hated the most was what he did to Kurn.

Oh don't even get me started on that episode.... And while it's not nearly as bad, I don't like what they did with Alexander either, completely changing his character and motivation, but adding in comeplete incompetence.

Both Worf and Jadzia suck in the Risa episode. Obviously Worf shouldn't have joined a group that mostly just wants to ruin everyone's good time, but Jadzia is just kind of a bitch in this specific episode. Worf doesn't want to go to Risa, she bullies him into it. Worf is more comfortable in his Starfleet uniform than anything else, she belittles him for not wearing a t-shirt and bathing suit. They went there with the express purpose of furthering their relationship, she refuses to talk about it.

She also drinks juice she's allergic too just to make a childish point about how he can't tell her what to do even though the entire episode is him going along with what she wants (until the terrorism anyway).

I want to point out that while the episode wasn't necessarily "good", I actually found it to be quite humorous with Worf being fish out of water. That was mostly what I was getting at.

008Zulu posted...

DS9 had Garak, he carried the show.

Amazing character, yes but I dont think you can consider him to carry the show when hes in less than 25% of the episodes of the series.

I miss Deep Space 9. Back when Star Trek wasn't so woke and political. The closest it ever got to being political was when Rom stares directly into the camera and says with a straight face "workers of the world unite, you have nothing to lose but your chains". And when the only trans characters were in the frontline main cast and brought up their gender frequently as it bore relevance to the plot and their personal viewpoints.

Kaldrenthebold posted...

I actually found it to be quite humorous with Worf being fish out of water. That was mostly what I was getting at.

i could consider agreeing with that, if it hadn't been for the terrorism
that just doesn't feel like a Worf thing to do in my opinion

el_cheato posted...

I miss Deep Space 9. Back when Star Trek wasn't so woke and political. The closest it ever got to being political was when Rom stares directly into the camera and says with a straight face "workers of the world unite, you have nothing to lose but your chains". And when the only trans characters were in the frontline main cast and brought up their gender frequently as it bore relevance to the plot and their personal viewpoints.

Star trek has always been woke

Nirvanas_Nox posted...

Star trek has always been woke

This. Also I'm glad the showrunner is on record saying he should have been more woke. Imagine thinking Star Trek isn't woke lol

Ive had the Vizio StarTrek channel as my go to bed time thing for a while now. It only plays the original and Picard stuff though. Im gonna check if theres one for DS9, you guys got me hyped lol. I dont remember seeing much if any DS9 as a kid, I only remember the Picard stuff.

CassandraCroft posted...

I can't believe this but will wonders never cease!

Me and ImAMarvel actually agree on something. I too think Move Along Home is a fairly decent episode and also like the bit where they sing "Allimaraine"! I never got the hate for it and could give you a top twenty worse episodes than it!



Sisko gives Picard a run for his money as worst Trek Captain. Even the creators could see that Sisko was crap which is why they turned him into Hawk from Spenser For Hire.

As for the topic at hand DS9 is the worst Trek programmme ever. I just do not understand what people see in this garbage!

Here is my post I did on Quora on why DS9 is garbage:

1. Oh look lets plagiarize and copy Babylon 5 an idea that we the execs at Paramount originally rejected after J. Michael Straczynski proposed it to us in 1991.
2. Lets set it on a Space Station with the characters not going any bloody where thus alienating all the fans of TOS and TNG who grew up with the idea that Star Trek was about a Captain on a Starship travelling The Galaxy not being stuck on a Space Station not going any bloody where.
3. Quick lets bring in the Defiant to try and win back the fans of TOS and TNG and it worked! Proving yet again a Starship is the way to go over some shit Space Station.
4. Only a Commander can be in charge of a Spacestation! Quick lets make Sisko Captain to again try win over fans of TOS and TNG! Thus changing the original premise of the series.
5. The cast and crew (with the exception of Jadzia, Quark and Garak (OBrien doesnt count as he is a superior TNG crewman)) were so crap and pathetic that the creators freely admit that Worf was brought in to try and win back ratings and viewers.
6. Sisko was so shit as Captain it was unbelievable. Even the creators could see just how crap he was which is why they tried to change him in to Hawk a character Avery Brooks played in the TV shows Spencer: For Hire and A Man Called Hawk.
7. I agree with one commentator when he said that The Dominion story arc killed Star Trek. It made absolutely fantastic TV but then having to see Janeway and Archer go back to the old ways of trying to talk your way out of a fight just seemed dull and boring in comparison.
8. Another way The Dominion Arc almost killed Star Trek was that Seasons 5, 6 and 7 especially Seasons 6 and 7 suffered terribly because of it. Ill explain. take season 6 after the opening 6 parter only 3 episodes dealt with The Dominion War which meant the rest of the season was filled with utter shit, drivel, fluff and filler episodes. Same for Season 7. It is the only way to explain utter gems and Classics(note extreme sarcasm) in You Are Cordially Invited, Far Beyond The Stars (never watched by me never will), Profit And Lace, The Sound Of Her Voice, Times Orphan, Take Me Out To The Holosuite (Never watched by me and never will) (Oh look we are currently in the middle of a war that we are getting our asses kicked in what shall we do? Oh I know lets invite a Vulcan Captain to a game of that Americanized version of Rounders.), Badda-Bing Badda Bang, Prodigal Daughter (Even the creators apologized for that mess) and Chimera.
9. They destroyed Gul Dukat and Kai Winn by turning them into moustache twirling cartoon villains.
10. I hated the Bajorans and all their Prophets and Pah-Wraiths shit and nonsense. The Sisko this and The Sisko that oh shut the fuck up. That got boring after the first two episodes. Also why was Sisko emissary when it was both him and Dax that discovered the wormhole.
11. What You Leave Behind was a terrible way to end the series. They build up the amazing Dominion War Arc then rush through it in less than 20 minutes just so they could put a closure to all that Dukat, Winn Pah-Wraiths shit and nonsense and then the creators realized they had to pad it out to 88 miutes so added all that goodbye to the cast crap. So glad Voyager got it right.
Out with the Dominion episodes (Sacrifice Of Angels is my all time favourite episode of Trek) The Mirror episodes (except for the garbage Emperors New Cloak) and Trials And Tribbleations DS9 was just pure garbage of the first order.

The fact that you post on quora immediately makes your opinion invalid

LSGW_Zephyra posted...

This. Also I'm glad the showrunner is on record saying he should have been more woke. Imagine thinking Star Trek isn't woke lol

Plus star trek had the first on screen lesbian kiss and it was on DS9! Lol

Nirvanas_Nox posted...

Star trek has always been woke

i suspect he was being sarcastic, maybe?

ROBANN_88 posted...

i suspect he was being sarcastic, maybe?

Maybe. Didn't sound like it to me.

Definitely sounded sarcastic. But I know it can be hard to tell for sure.

el_cheato posted...

And when the only trans characters were in the frontline main cast and brought up their gender frequently as it bore relevance to the plot and their personal viewpoints.

That to me looks like clearcut sarcasm, i don't see how it could not be