Current Events > this is a sadly accurate as hell double standard in writing

(+) Yeah! (+)

how is modern writing worse?

@kirbymuncher

AceMos posted...

how is modern writing worse?

at least personally I feel like there is more focus on spectacle and callbacks to past works than there used to be, both of which I consider sort of lazy things to do to help hide a lack of real substance

but then again I guess those don't directly impact character writing so much as overall direction and plotting

AceMos posted...

how is modern writing worse?

@kirbymuncher

The internet and self-publishing means more writers - talented or not - can get their works out there.

kirbymuncher posted...

at least personally I feel like there is more focus on spectacle and callbacks to past works than there used to be, both of which I consider sort of lazy things to do to help hide a lack of real substance

but then again I guess those don't directly impact character writing so much as overall direction and plotting

or its just that you are older and more cynical

plenty of great shows and movies dont do what your talking about

look at the owl house cartoon for example

I mean Korra gets shit because it wasnt as good as airbender. Korra herself is also a much more unlikable character.

Let be honest here, the examples here are always rife with bad writing and production debacles. Maybe, these issues seep into the final product and the hate is actually justified.

S08 GoT, Korra, Rey, all examples of this.

Link_of_time posted...

I mean Korra gets shit because it wasnt as good as airbender. Korra herself is also a much more unlikable character.

i found it better than last airbender exploring more complex themes

and oh no korra actually had flaws to over come

as for the rest of your crap no just no

AceMos posted...

ppl constantly bitch about harley quinn

ive seen ppl say its BS she is a olympic level gymnast talented fighter and genius psychologist saying its not possible she could do all that

AceMos posted...

ppl constantly bitch about harley quinn

ive seen ppl say its BS she is a olympic level gymnast talented fighter and genius psychologist saying its not possible she could do all that

He is a murderous psychopath and she got away with it. Like welcome to the good guys.

And she was gymnast, that is it. And she took out powerful heroes.

kirbymuncher posted...

at least personally I feel like there is more focus on spectacle and callbacks to past works than there used to be, both of which I consider sort of lazy things to do to help hide a lack of real substance

but then again I guess those don't directly impact character writing so much as overall direction and plotting

Is there a modern version of the Wilhelm Scream? Or is modern stuff less referential than prior generations?

cjsdowg posted...

He is a murderous psychopath and she got away with it. Like welcome to the good guys.

And she was gymnast, that is it. And she took out powerful heroes.

harley quinn taking down wonder woman is just as believable as batman taking down superman

both are equally stupid

AceMos posted...

ppl constantly bitch about harley quinn

ive seen ppl say its BS she is a olympic level gymnast talented fighter and genius psychologist saying its not possible she could do all that

Eh. There will always be someone who complains, but how many Harley hate posts do you see compared to Rey. Just cuz some ppl hate doesn't mean they're unpopular, look at Superman.

AceMos posted...

or its just that you are older and more cynical

I guess this is possible too but it's not like I'm only comparing against my memories or anything, I still check out older media from time to time. read dune for the first time not too long ago and was quite impressed with just how well put together the whole thing was

I am not familiar with owl house I may have to give it a look

cjsdowg posted...

And she was gymnast, that is it. And she took out powerful heroes.

How do you feel about Nightwing

All I know is whenever a character is being analyzed and their "sue-ness" is being measured/taken into account, that character is almost always a woman.

ChocoboMog123 posted...

Crow hates the Ark for oppressing Nikkes and the Outer Rim and is actually just a terrorist. Like the taliban used to be considered freedom fighters. She does bad things, she's a villain, but her cause is to gain recognition of Nikke problems. The Ark isn't going to recognize her if she doesn't actually pose a threat to them. And as far as she's concerned, the whole Ark is the enemy.
But, yeah, people have no issues identifying with Walter White and justifying his actions.

Syuen is actually just a bad person. She only cares about herself and would put everyone in danger to make a buck. She's only an ally because it gives her power.

But Crow was willing to kill her own teammates (and Yuni) to advance that cause. Even the narrative has it that the player, who's otherwise all for seeing Nikkes as people and not weapons, considers her too far gone and needing to be locked up or put down.

(I've never actually watched an ep of Breaking Bad and have a very casual idea of the memes, so I can't comment on that part)

Sure, the player hates Syuen too, but they're not on the same level of being irredeemable.

ellis123 posted...

Is there a modern version of the Wilhelm Scream? Or is modern stuff less referential than prior generations?

I don't know if usage of stock sound effects counts as being referential <_<

AceMos posted...

i found it better than last airbender exploring more complex themes

and oh no korra actually had flaws to over come

as for the rest of your crap no just no

Yep, it sure did explore themes. Characters were shit, unlikable, and the writing, well, let me tell you. Some people die in s03 so there's that. A lot this can be blamed on the production issues, so there's my point again.

kirbymuncher posted...

I don't know if usage of stock sound effects counts as being referential <_<

The Wilhelm Scream originally was used as a reference (well, minus when it started). Ot os only now that it is used as a stock thing rather than being a reference.

TMOG posted...

How do you feel about Nightwing

He was trained by batman before he started taking out powerful foes. And they had her beat him.

Is this particular reddit page failing to load for anyone else, I've been trying to read it off and on for like 30 mins, and it keeps giving me an error, but the rest of the site doesn't

Edit: okay I had to go on my PC, it still wasn't working, but then a different browser worked

darkace77450 posted...

I too remember all the praise for Jon Snow's "deep brooding" and all the hatred (actual hate, as in criticism; not to be confused with "love-to-hate") Cersei's "insufferable smugness."

Cersei got an innocent kid's spine broken and killed her husband so she could keep fucking her (objectively) extremely attractive brother. People hate Cersei because she is a fucking psychopathic serial killer.

darkace77450 posted...

I too remember all the praise for Jon Snow's "deep brooding" and all the hatred (actual hate, as in criticism; not to be confused with "love-to-hate") Cersei's "insufferable smugness."

Is this about the show or the books

As far as I know people hate Cersei's insufferable smugness in the show because she's a fucking idiot and things just work out for her for no reason in a show that had previously had actual consequences for characters

Metal_Gear_Raxis posted...

It's like seeing Edelgard haters describe her and Dimitri!

https://www.reddit.com/r/FireEmblemThreeHouses/comments/wlvlwo/edelgard_is_a_victim_of_misogyny_but_shes_not_the/

I think this trope is at play here.

https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/MenAreGenericWomenAreSpecial

This kind of notion that liking male characters for something is normal, but liking female characters has to be due to some sort of extraneous attraction. Even a lot of progressives fall under this trap.

While were citing tropes, Most Writers Are Male. Couple that with their (perhaps unwarranted) fear of being called sexist if they dont make female characters godly and a long history of expected cliches (women want kids, men win the girl in the end, femininity is at odds with toughness) and its no surprise a lot of female characters end up badly written.

The generic tough girl is expected to act a certain way (being aggressively anti-men) instead of just acting like a person. End result is people dont like that character. Meanwhile characters like Ellen Ripley are popular because they dont need to show off their strength.

Samus has always been written by males yet nobody is ever mad at her protryal, in fact the one time people hated Samus was other M the worst written game in the franchise, gender has nothing to do with it, it's the writer's abilities to write those characters that do. There's also the major from ghost in the shell. Through that one's a bit odd because she's written very differently in the show compared to the manga.

tremain07 posted...

Samus has always been written by males yet nobody is ever mad at her protryal, in fact the one time people hated Samus was other M the worst written game in the franchise, gender has nothing to do with it, it's the writer's abilities to write those characters that do. There's also the major from ghost in the shell. Through that one's a bit odd because she's written very differently in the show compared to the manga.

There was nothing to be mad at because she's barely a character in games other than Other M and Fusion and she was written terribly as soon as they tried to flesh her out. Suddenly she wants to be a Mom and looks up to her male commander and feels lost without him.

Awful.

It's not that male writers are always bad at writing female characters. It's that they often fall into the same traps because of their lack of perspective.

Punished_Blinx posted...

There was nothing to be mad at because she's barely a character

false samus had a defined character before other M

it was subtle but it was there

and a major thing about her was her hatred of taking orders

shown in both fusion and the manga

she also was very heroic often doing things for no reward at all (prime 1 and 2 are not missions for her)

Yawn_Master2 posted...

I placed your words verbatim (misspellings and all) into modus ponens. Logically what you said made the conclusion everyone is dumb. You know. Modus ponens.

Are you trolling or is your reading comprehension actually primary school level?

I feel like the meme is willingly putting a spin on both sides. For example, for the male it's having heroic and villain traits. For the female it's smugness while ignoring what makes her a hero? Isn't this just how you choose to look at ultimately the same thing?

I feel like there are some subconscious biases at play here where OP is holding women to a misogynistic standard.

I honestly don't think that the gender is big line between them, at least not so extreme as shown in the meme.

Mary sue, annoying crybaby, incoherent character, overly violant, "corny sob story" and so on can easily get hits on every side.

And the author even uses Star Wars as a reference.

Wtf, when was Kylo Ren called to do some "deep brooding" instead of "bothersome whining"? When was his character called "complex"?

Not a problem with morally grey characters per se, or female characters either. Problem is the writing. Most writers can barely figure out how to write women, and they typically can't manage to make a coherent morally grey character on purpose. The two problems are now compounded and on main street since is the only difference.

Although complaining about it now is kinda moot as it's becoming way more natural, but when the push for more female MCs came in most media it just became pretty obvious very quickly that human interaction was not a lot of these writers strong suit.

Thinking about it. Look how many fans MCU Wanda has. She is a literal monster and ppl still "stan" her like crazy. So it might not be about sex. And like I talked about before Harley help to blow up a city kill Lois and her baby, kill Jimmy, killed the Titans. Who she gets on the good guy team. So even the meta and in comic world she should be hated alot more then she is.

cjsdowg posted...

Thinking about it. Look how many fans MCU Wanda has. She is a literal monster and ppl still "stan" her like crazy. So it might not be about sex. And like I talked about before Harley help to blow up a city kill Lois and her baby, kill Jimmy, killed the Titans. Who she gets on the good guy team. So even the meta and in comic world she should be hated alot more then she is.

Thanos had an entire community dedicated to stanning him.

cjsdowg posted...

Thinking about it. Look how many fans MCU Wanda has. She is a literal monster and ppl still "stan" her like crazy. So it might not be about sex. And like I talked about before Harley help to blow up a city kill Lois and her baby, kill Jimmy, killed the Titans. Who she gets on the good guy team. So even the meta and in comic world she should be hated alot more then she is.

People like enjoyable power fantasies. Doesn't quite matter how evil they are at heart as long as they throw up some potentially benevolent reason for doing these evil things, and are badass as all hell while enacting their plan. Gender plays no role in the "I would totally murder everyone who got in the way of me and my family" power fantasy.

Turbam posted...

Who was Morally gray in Korra?

Korra herself was basically Zuko who had the benefit of being born to loving parents on the good guys' side, and there's a lot of similarities in their arcs. Her 'grayness' mostly comes from her impulsive, borderline bratty behavior and temper that occasionally toes the line with violence (she straight-up publicly threatens to ice the judge who sentences her father to prison). Which is of course part of what made her such a good character, and helped make her growth so rewarding; but the double-standard for female MCs is very much a thing, to the point where I'm sure there's plenty of CEmen right now frothing at the mouth over me calling Korra 'a good character.'

By contrast, Katara had a lot of these same impulses, but since she's the supporting love-interest character, she's not put under the same scrutiny that a female MC is.

There is currently an anti harley topic right now

yusiko posted...

There is currently an anti harley topic right now

Well, that makes sense. Post-Injustice Harley is dogshit.

yusiko posted...

There is currently an anti harley topic right now

In that same topic , there are people defending villains and anti-hero women. Harly is just the worst.

https://old.reddit.com/r/fireemblem/comments/1724lsn/everybody_makes_bad_decisions_from_time_to_time/
https://gamefaqs.gamespot.com/a/user_image/8/0/8/AAZo6AAAE6KY.jpg

PBusted posted...

https://old.reddit.com/r/fireemblem/comments/1724lsn/everybody_makes_bad_decisions_from_time_to_time/
https://gamefaqs.gamespot.com/a/user_image/8/0/8/AAZo6AAAE6KY.jpg

Who are these people who like characters who keep making bad choices? Like half the reason people hate TLJ is because every single person made stupid choices any chance they could get.

cjsdowg posted...

Who are these people who like characters who keep making bad choices? Like half the reason people hate TLJ is because every single person made stupid choices any chance they could get.

compare how ppl treat anakin to rey

AceMos posted...

compare how ppl treat anakin to rey

I will give you that, he is a genocidal monster and people blame Mace for telling people to watch out for that psycho.

darkace77450 posted...

I too remember all the praise for Jon Snow's "deep brooding" and all the hatred (actual hate, as in criticism; not to be confused with "love-to-hate") Cersei's "insufferable smugness."

One was portrayed as a hero and the other as a villain. Jon generally did likable things that drew support from the audience, and Cersei did the exact opposite.
Danaerys and Stannis would be better examples. Danaerys was called a Mary Sue and criticized for her weaknesses ruling while Stannis the Mannis was praised even with his failures and dirty deeds (until he killed his daughter).
Arya was generally liked until the final season, and even then it was less her character and more of just what the writers decided to have her character do and not do.

I think the discrepancy is overblown. Theres definitely a this character is me! from some men or masculine people towards male characters who then criticize characters of other genders for the same traits. However, any regular person doesnt care about either in such a passionate way.

I really dont understand why people dont know what morally gray is. Why do they think creating a plague that kills the living and the dead is gray? Attacking villages to kill the people to raise them as undead serving her. Enslaving an entire race of sentient creatures so you can prolong your power by making more undead with them is morally gray? Burning down a world tree with thousands of people living in it? All with her own damn will restored after being controlled as a banshee. Thats just pure evil.

There's a similar situation in Tower of God where one of the female characters takes a fairly villainous turn. I'd be fine if people simply disliked her for that, but the fanbase goes way beyond the pale, and it's not helped by fans falling in love with every single villain who hurts Bam and friends.

Rachel isn't really morally grey. She's a proper villain, but over time her views have been expounded upon and she's a pretty nuanced character. Most fans of the series wish she would raped, burned at the stake, and all number of edgy horrible things you can do to women. Other villains in the series? Most of the fanbase falls in love with them and begs SIU to turn them into good guys, and a lot end up forming explicitly temporary alliances with Bam and then back-stab him when the moment is ideal for them.

It's been a while since I read the books. But Shallan was a great morally grey character in the Stormlight Books. Possibly one of my favorites of all time, but as expected she's absolutely hated by a decent number of the fanbase. I've only read the first two books I think. In those Shallan is initially portrayed as a goody noble who really wants to study under a higher ranked, but generally disliked noble, Jasnah. The moment she doesn't get her way she reveals to the audience that she's actually here to steal something and will have to resort to Plan B. Shallan has pretty consistently been my favorite part of the books, and while I've heard she gets more insufferable in the later books I can't imagine her getting so toxic I'd ever fall out of love with her. Sanderson's come a long way since Vin, at least.

AceMos posted...

compare how ppl treat anakin to rey

What are you talking about? People shit all over Anakin for a host of reasons.

AceMos posted...

how is modern writing worse?

@kirbymuncher

Well, of nothing else, there has been a noted uptick in writers adapting source material that they loudly and proudly dislike.

The Witcher, Rings of Power, Man of Steel, among others.

Not sure whether that necessarily makes the writing inherrently "worse," but you're certainly going to get a lot more negative reception the more you try to steer a property away from what made fans love it in the first place. And there are a lot of writers today far more eager to "make their mark" than tell a cohesive story.

Ignoring the source material is par for the course sadly.

DuuuDe14 posted...

Ignoring the source material is par for the course sadly.

Ignoring, sure. I'm not even going to say that's a bad thing. Adaptations need to, well, adapt, and things being cut or changed even majorly, isn't inherrently bad. Kubrick's Shining barely has anything to do with King's book, but its still excellent.

Buy there's "ignoring" the source material, and then there's outright contempt for it. If you don't like superman (like snyder), or don't like the Witcher, maybe you shouldn't be writing the screenplay.