Poll of the Day > Did Satan give humanity free will/consciousness?

(+) Yeah! (+)

Really makes that God figure look like an asshole if you think about it.

Has anyone noticed how 'new atheists' deride religion as primitive superstition, but when you hear their hot takes it quickly becomes clear they have only the shallowest concept of it?

Lil_Mello posted...

I'm not an atheist.

He was right about the rest, though.

Those gnostics have some fun theories about the demiurge.

We are naught more than puppets, dancing beneath infinite marionette strings

No we were born with it and that's a good thing. Anyone who says otherwise is shit deep in denial, and prefers to let other people do their thinking for them so they never hafta take accountability for their actions.

God put a tree of knowledge right in front of humans and gave humans the gift of curiosity, he totally expected them to eventually eat from the tree

Lil_Mello posted...

r u me from the past

satan and god not real and it's debatable if free will is real since it's an abstract concept without a core definition.

MightBeOverSoon posted...

Has anyone noticed how 'new atheists' deride religion as primitive superstition, but when you hear their hot takes it quickly becomes clear they have only the shallowest concept of it?

Nah, it's like anything there are morons on both sides. I'm sure if I dug I could find some stupid fucking statement from a die hard Christian. The Bible also has plenty of stupid shit in it, so backing that book is beyond ridiculous.

God gave humans free will but Satan introduced sin to them. You can think of it like him inventing sin. God said that humans' love was only really valid if they were able to choose.

Yeah it makes God kind of a self righteous dick, or something so intelligent he's closer to a finely tuned perfection machine than a human, or limited by his own lack of free will. It makes Satan a more interesting anti-hero, but Satan only has powers given to him by God, he's completely under control by God.

How hell came to be a place of pure suffering is not really well established aside from the fact that it naturally became that way from the absence of God, though several times it's implied that God set it up that way.

If God is real he would be a dick to make it so we can't do anything bad, free will is the point of being human. It's what separates us from slaves, sure would a society where no one could murder or hurt anyone be a better place in theory? Maybe, but humanity and free will are a good thing. It also makes it mean more when someone does something good because they are doing it by choice and not by being forced.

We are the only thing on the planet that can think and reason, almost every living thing on the planet is driven by animal instinct. Meanwhile we can determine what we we want to do then do it, not be driven purely by our instincts.

God created the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil to give mankind free will. They were given the choice of whether to eat of it or not. It may not even have needed to be any special kind of tree. It could have been an ordinary tree that God said not to touch, and as soon as they disobeyed they would have learned of sin.

If God had not created the Tree of Knowledge then man would have had no opportunity to sin, and thus would never have had free will.

I remember someone made a very good argument that we don't have free will. That literally every instance in your life builds to where you going to react to the next instance a certain way.

And ya know it kinda made sense. Wonder if that's got anything to do with the fact I flip a coin for some choices in life. Cause deep down I know what I'm going to choose if I allow myself.

Sufferedphoneix posted...

I remember someone made a very good argument that we don't have free will. That literally every instance in your life builds to where you going to react to the next instance a certain way.

Sounds like determinism. It makes a lot of sense to me, but I also heard it doesn't work well with quantum theory. I don't know the half of it though and I'm still not sure whether it's more reasonable to believe in free will or some form of determinism. I'm just content with having the illusion of free will.

Muscles posted...

God put a tree of knowledge right in front of humans and gave humans the gift of curiosity, he totally expected them to eventually eat from the tree

Fruit = Sex
Snake = A close, but not divinely chosen, human relative

God guided our evolution but it was tainted by another primate whose evolution was guided by the .

Yellow posted...

God gave humans free will but Satan introduced sin to them. You can think of it like him inventing sin. God said that humans' love was only really valid if they were able to choose.

Yeah it makes God kind of a self righteous dick, or something so intelligent he's closer to a finely tuned perfection machine than a human, or limited by his own lack of free will. It makes Satan a more interesting anti-hero, but Satan only has powers given to him by God, he's completely under control by God.

How hell came to be a place of pure suffering is not really well established aside from the fact that it naturally became that way from the absence of God, though several times it's implied that God set it up that way.

Nah it's definitely well established where hell came from.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hel_(mythological_being)

We have always been free to choose what is available to us. What is available, however, has almost never been made freely available.

Revelation34 posted...

Nah it's definitely well established where hell came from.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hel_(mythological_being)

A) I went to Bible study classes as a kid to memorize these things so it's a little more than my thoughts on the matter
B) I'm talking about Roman Catholicism, not whatever that is

It's an interesting question, if you treat it as digging deeper into the plot mechanics of a fictional universe -- a bit like arguing about Star Wars. But the moment you treat it as an actual explanation of how the real world works, that's the point when you should buy 12 rolls of rubber wallpaper for your room.

The Gnostics were right about the demiurge. Christians worship the false God.

I have so many good memories of asking my grandma many questions about how religion works. She really cared about that stuff. I was just fascinated. I also feel like it was a missed opportunity to feel that same interest in science.

My other grandma was that classic edge lord atheist, I find myself somewhere in between where I'm just fascinated by the stories but I don't believe any of them are true. I think religion is fascinating aside from the fact that it hinders people's potential to really understand how the universe works, and the inevitable dangerous political consequences of a faith-based philosophy to believing anything.

I don't really believe in free will.

Yellow posted...

God gave humans free will but Satan introduced sin to them. You can think of it like him inventing sin. God said that humans' love was only really valid if they were able to choose.

Yeah it makes God kind of a self righteous dick, or something so intelligent he's closer to a finely tuned perfection machine than a human, or limited by his own lack of free will. It makes Satan a more interesting anti-hero, but Satan only has powers given to him by God, he's completely under control by God.

How hell came to be a place of pure suffering is not really well established aside from the fact that it naturally became that way from the absence of God, though several times it's implied that God set it up that way.

There is no God or Satan, but if there were, and the stories of the Bible were accurate, then no, Satan didn't introduce sin to mankind; God did, because God is the one whose expectations define sin.

Satan didn't invent sin by telling Eve to eat from the tree, and Eve didn't invent sin from eating from the tree; God invented sin by putting the tree in the garden knowing that Adam and Eve would eat from it, telling them not to, then holding it against them when they did. Nothing counts as a sin without God to hold it against someone.

GEKGanon posted...

There is no God or Satan, but if there were, and the stories of the Bible were accurate, then no, Satan didn't introduce sin to mankind; God did, because God is the one whose expectations define sin.

Satan didn't invent sin by telling Eve to eat from the tree, and Eve didn't invent sin from eating from the tree; God invented sin by putting the tree in the garden knowing that Adam and Eve would eat from it, telling them not to, then holding it against them when they did. Nothing counts as a sin without God to hold it against someone.

I'm not preaching the consistency of the bible here. To me you're just picking apart why lightsabers wouldn't work.

But there is a more or less "official" answer, which is the one I gave you.

MightBeOverSoon posted...

Has anyone noticed how 'new atheists' deride religion as primitive superstition, but when you hear their hot takes it quickly becomes clear they have only the shallowest concept of it?

This. Some of the most awful conversations I've had about religion are with atheists. I'm not religious at all but I find them to typically be just as close-minded as the worst fundamentalists.
At least with religious folk, I've felt more like I'm discussing things in good faith, no pun intended

It's so weird to me that atheists won't even acknowledge that there could be something beyond our perception of reality on this plane of existence

OhhhJa posted...

This. Some of the most awful conversations I've had about religion are with atheists. I'm not religious at all but I find them to typically be just as close-minded as the worst fundamentalists.
At least with religious folk, I've felt more like I'm discussing things in good faith, no pun intended

It's so weird to me that atheists won't even acknowledge that there could be something beyond our perception of reality on this plane of existence

I don't doubt it exists. I doubt that any of the ancient Abrahamic schizophrenics had a magical connection with them. lol.

Also, fuck it, I doubt it exists. Going by PBS spacetime I'm pretty sure anything outside our existence is just meaningless math. But that's the thing. I only respect conversations from people who have a tiny sliver of education or scientific background, not people who dress up like wizards for extremely predictable human nature reasons.

Yellow posted...

I don't doubt it exists. I doubt that any of the ancient Abrahamic schizophrenics had a magical connection with them. lol.

Also, fuck it, I doubt it exists. Going by PBS spacetime I'm pretty sure anything outside our existence is just meaningless math. But that's the thing. I only respect conversations from people who have a tiny sliver of education or scientific background, not people who dress up like wizards for extremely predictable human nature reasons.

Sure. But even astrophysics has limitations about our understanding of the universe. Hell, the james webb telescope is currently upending a lot of what we thought we knew about the early universe or if we're even correct about the age of our universe or the big bang. A lot of what we do know is still technically theoretical as well. Either way, the scientific community still doesn't possess all the answers about our universe or what potentially existed before or what may exist beyond the boundary of our universe (if there is one at all). Maybe we will one day but we haven't seemed to get any closer to a lot of these answers for decades

This could even be a simulation for all we know as has been suggested by a lot of folks. Then what... we have a god of some sort of that is the case. The universe is made up of information, after all, and when you break it down to the smallest degree, we get to quarks which are technically made of nothing...

Then we could delve into the weird world of quantum mechanics but that's a lot

Yellow posted...

I'm not preaching the consistency of the bible here. To me you're just picking apart why lightsabers wouldn't work.

But there is a more or less "official" answer, which is the one I gave you.

I'm not worried about the "official" answer, I'm simply stating what actually makes sense (as far as a nonsensical religion is concerned), and what makes sense is that "sin" as a concept is contingent on God's displeasure, and God's displeasure is defined by God, meaning he is therefore the source of sin.

Yellow posted...

A) I went to Bible study classes as a kid to memorize these things so it's a little more than my thoughts on the matter
B) I'm talking about Roman Catholicism, not whatever that is

Christianity took the name Hel and added another l.

OhhhJa posted...

It's so weird to me that atheists won't even acknowledge that there could be something beyond our perception of reality on this plane of existence

You clearly don't talk to many atheists or know much about atheism.

Also "New Atheism" is a dead movement, not a form of atheism. If anything it's referring to anti-theism, if not the positions of a specific handful of people (e.g., "the four horsemen"). It's not a philosophical term, it was coined by a journalist to refer specifically to those people. Nowadays it's usually used by religionists as another pejorative, along with "internet atheist" and "lacktheist".

OhhhJa posted...

This. Some of the most awful conversations I've had about religion are with atheists. I'm not religious at all but I find them to typically be just as close-minded as the worst fundamentalists.
At least with religious folk, I've felt more like I'm discussing things in good faith, no pun intended

It's so weird to me that atheists won't even acknowledge that there could be something beyond our perception of reality on this plane of existence

Something that isn't measurable has no impact on anything, and is therefore has no relevance. It only has relevance if it did have impact on something, as that in itself would be measurable. If the thing in question isn't perceptible because it is outside of this plane of existence, then it is still irrelevant, as it would only be relevant if it contacted this plane of existence.

What I'm saying is, something that has no bearing on us is meaningless to us, and it only has meaning when it has measurable bearing on us.

GEKGanon posted...

Something that isn't measurable has no impact on anything, and is therefore has no relevance. It only has relevance if it did have impact on something, as that in itself would be measurable. If the thing in question isn't perceptible because it is outside of this plane of existence, then it is still irrelevant, as it would only be relevant if it contacted this plane of existence.

What I'm saying is, something that has no bearing on us is meaningless to us, and it only has meaning when it has measurable bearing on us.

Unless, of course, your consciousness isnt what you perceive it to be. It's natural to believe that your consciousness is simply you, an individual, completely separate from the rest of the matter around you. For all we know, your mind could be the only really consciousness and everything you perceive to be someone else is just an illusion. Perhaps we're just the universe dreaming and none of us are real. We exist seemingly in a sea of information without the faintest clue of why or how any of this exists in the first place. I think it's somewhat shortsighted to definitively assert that there is no god/being/phenomenon beyond our universe or if this universe is even "real" in the first place even if that god or being doesn't give a shit about us

You're right that none of this affects our day to day lives and we can live and die without ever knowing the answers and it would have zero impact on us (which is why i dont really think about this stuff much). But that doesn't mean there isn't something beyond this plane of existence nor does it prove atheists are correct.

I think atheists often think from a purely scientific perspective but until science has ALL the answers i think it's fair to consider applying philosophy. And I'm not dumping on science. I'm actually really into astrophysics. I'm sure this sounds like pretentious hippie talk to some people but it's just stuff I've thought about in my free time.

OhhhJa posted...

but until science has ALL the answers

you do not understand science then lmao

agesboy posted...

you do not understand science then lmao

Explain. I'm simply saying that you can't apply scientific expertise to something that it hasn't provided an explanation for

There is no point in expanding upon some religion's lore. Humanity created a thing. It died. That's it. Moving on to the next hing.

OhhhJa posted...

Explain. I'm simply saying that you can't apply scientific expertise to something that it hasn't provided an explanation for

science will never have "ALL the answers" because it is constantly trying to disprove itself and arrive to a better conclusion, which is never the final conclusion

agesboy posted...

science will never have "ALL the answers" because it is constantly trying to disprove itself and arrive to a better conclusion, which is never the final conclusion

Sure. Science attempts to provide the best possible explanation for any given phenomenon and constantly adapts if new information comes to light. That doesn't mean there isn't overwhelming scientific consensus on a given topic.

I guess what I really mean to say is that science hasn't completely made philosophy obsolete yet imo

OhhhJa posted...

Unless, of course, your consciousness isnt what you perceive it to be. It's natural to believe that your consciousness is simply you, an individual, completely separate from the rest of the matter around you. For all we know, your mind could be the only really consciousness and everything you perceive to be someone else is just an illusion. Perhaps we're just the universe dreaming and none of us are real. We exist seemingly in a sea of information without the faintest clue of why or how any of this exists in the first place. I think it's somewhat shortsighted to definitively assert that there is no god/being/phenomenon beyond our universe or if this universe is even "real" in the first place even if that god or being doesn't give a shit about us

You're right that none of this affects our day to day lives and we can live and die without ever knowing the answers and it would have zero impact on us (which is why i dont really think about this stuff much). But that doesn't mean there isn't something beyond this plane of existence nor does it prove atheists are correct.

I think atheists often think from a purely scientific perspective but until science has ALL the answers i think it's fair to consider applying philosophy. And I'm not dumping on science. I'm actually really into astrophysics. Really, I'd say my interest in astrophysics has been the catalyst for my views on this topic. I'm sure this sounds like pretentious hippie talk to some people but it's just stuff I've thought about in my free time.

I think you missed the point. If something isn't measurable, it doesn't matter if it is there or not. If I told you there was goblin in your house, but you can't see it, hear it, feel it, touch it, smell it, taste it, or measure it in anyway whatsoever, and its presence can't be felt or known, and it has no capacity to interact with or effect anything around it, then it doesn't matter if the goblin is there, because the end result is the same as the goblin not being there.

Every human encounter with a divine being was actually an Alien Astronaut visitation

Tree of Knowledge is like a repackaged Prometheus or Pandora's box.

The Buddha story about being curious and realizing death in the world is also similar.

And now that I think about it, I wonder where the phrase "curiosity kills the cat" comes from?

NeoSioType posted...

Tree of Knowledge is like a repackaged Prometheus or Pandora's box.

The Buddha story about being curious and realizing death in the world is also similar.

And now that I think about it, I wonder where the phrase "curiosity kills the cat" comes from?

Keep digging and see what happens when you find out.