Board 8 > Final Fantasy XVI previews are up

(+) Yeah! (+)

Yoshi-P's comments on the term JRPG are 100% true. Some of the other stuff mentioned in this topic, not so much

MacArrowny posted...

good news: https://www.siliconera.com/final-fantasy-xvi-combat-inspired-by-ffv-job-system/

well shit... ask and ye shall receive.

The world structure being like God of War 2018 is an interesting choice

Plus being a straight up character action game

This all appeals directly to me but a lot of the fans still pining for the old days are probably going to be upset

swordz9 posted...

Im still surprised theyve never remastered the XIII games considering how many rereleases they do

This...would love a remaster of the XIII trilogy

SHINE_GET_64 posted...

This all appeals directly to me but a lot of the fans still pining for the old days are probably going to be upset

I like action games a lot. Even more than RPGs for sure.

But variety is good right? I'm not sure we need these AAA action games when there are barely any AAA jrpgs anymore. DQ hits that old school vibe, but FF really pushed the genre and I guess that's what I miss the most.

What is it that people actually want when they say bring back FF to the classic style?

Just 4 party members in a line all controllable but with high end graphics?
Because SE does seem to pump out a number of 4 in a line titles, it just doesn't come with the FF branding.

There are plenty of retro RPGs out there these days

Give me a fun modern battle system to match the graphics and style

Leonhart4 posted...

There are plenty of retro RPGs out there these days

Give me a fun modern battle system to match the graphics and style

There are plenty of action RPGs out there these days

give me a fun turn-based battle system

MZero posted...

There are plenty of action RPGs out there these days

give me a fun turn-based battle system

Good news, Square just released one

MZero posted...

There are plenty of action RPGs out there these days

give me a fun turn-based battle system

Scarlet Grace?

I'd just like another turn-based RPG with a 9-figure budget... We haven't really gotten one since FF13.

MacArrowny posted...

I'd just like another turn-based RPG with a 9-figure budget... We haven't really gotten one since FF13.

Best you're going to get is the hybrid system FFVIIR uses, which is a good compromise in my book.

MZero posted...

There are plenty of action RPGs out there these days

give me a fun turn-based battle system

Should have bought Soul Hackers 2.

They ain't gonna make this kind of thing if it doesn't sell!

UshiromiyaEva posted...

Should have bought Soul Hackers 2.

They ain't gonna make this kind of thing if it doesn't sell!

SMT5's battle system is way more fun than Soul Hackers 2's!

Yeah but people bought that game.

Not a LOT of people, but certainly way more than SH2 which apparently tanked like a rock in the river.

Mostly what I'm upset about is the discrimination against turn-based battle systems because action is more "modern" which is bull stuff imo

and I say this as one of the biggest FFXV fans on the board! I like action RPGs a lot but sometimes I feel like some turn-based combat and I'd like to find it in some of the series that got me into it

I mean honestly I've given up hope on FF but if they take Dragon Quest next I'm going to be salty

How did I forget Yakuza 8?

MZero posted...

Mostly what I'm upset about is the discrimination against turn-based battle systems because action is more "modern" which is bull stuff imo

and I say this as one of the biggest FFXV fans on the board! I like action RPGs a lot but sometimes I feel like some turn-based combat and I'd like to find it in some of the series that got me into it

I mean honestly I've given up hope on FF but if they take Dragon Quest next I'm going to be salty

It's not necessarily "modern" but "realistic." Going into a turn-based battle in an otherwise realistic world borders on nonsensical.

So in that regard, Dragon Quest should be safe...!

Leonhart4 posted...

It's not necessarily "modern" but "realistic." Going into a turn-based battle in an otherwise realistic world borders on nonsensical.

Is it realistic for humans to turn into giant summons? Is it realistic for your allies in battle to be invincible and never get hurt no matter how much they're attacked?

MacArrowny posted...

Is it realistic for humans to turn into giant summons? Is it realistic for your allies in battle to be invincible and never get hurt no matter how much they're attacked?

"Realistic" within the parameters of the world as constructed

There are dumb aspects of action RPGs too, don't get me wrong, but just bringing everything to a grinding halt isn't very appealing in a world that can do much more

The appeal of turn-based mechanics is clearly in the idea that you are acting as a commander. Most action RPGs completely lose the feeling of controlling an entire team, which I think is the central aspect to the best Final Fantasy games. If they could somehow capture that with action mechanics, go ahead, but there's clearly stuff being lost in the transition from turn-based to action that suggests it's nowhere near a vertical upgrade.

In pretty much every action RPG I have played, the other party members might as well be non-existent. In a series where the best games have been character-driven, this is a problem.

Eh, it's not a problem in Mass Effect, where you only control Shepard and it still has a wonderful cast of characters, so I don't think the two are related.

FoolFantastic posted...

Most action RPGs completely lose the feeling of controlling an entire team, which I think is the central aspect to the best Final Fantasy games. If they could somehow capture that with action mechanics, go ahead

There's a fantastic little game you should check out called FF7 Remake!

I have mixed feelings about "pure" turn based games. I feel fine giving a pass to something like Dragon Quest since that's basically the official last stand of high budget pure retro gameplay and structure with no twists. Even then I wouldn't say Dragon Quest has "good" gameplay, but there's an artistry and traditionalism of some kind to it that I can respect.

In basically anything else I feel like you need a twist of some kind, like Bravely/Octopath boosts, Persona's sim elements, whatever stuff Fantasian appears to have going on or FF7R's take of "turns" as big swings bookended by smaller actions. The latter is probably my favorite "answer" anyone's come up with so far but none of these are perfect. By contrast, ARPGs feel like a really natural evolution of a genre that has been largely stagnant, but I can definitely recognize that there are unique elements and appeals that get lost in that transition - which IMO is fine since we've already established there are plenty of folks - including Square Enix on several different titles - trying to make the old ways work too.

Xiahou_Shake posted...

In basically anything else I feel like you need a twist of some kind, like Bravely/Octopath boosts, Persona's sim elements

I wouldn't call those twists. They still have turn-based battles, as with SMT.

You also neglected to mention Pokemon, the strongest turn-based series of all. Make the surrounding game and characters appealing and people have no problem with turn-based systems.

MacArrowny posted...

You also neglected to mention Pokemon, the strongest turn-based series of all. Make the surrounding game and characters appealing and people have no problem with turn-based systems.

Pokemon doesn't even do that anymore and it still sells like crazy!

MacArrowny posted...

I wouldn't call those twists. They still have turn-based battles, as with SMT.

Fair on Persona I suppose since the "twist" isn't directly impacting battles, but I think Bravely/Octopath definitely count since how you play those ends up being a good bit different from a more traditional game. Even the standard SMT systems that Persona utilizes would sufficiently count as a twist of some kind, I think!

But yeah I should have been more clear I'm strictly talking about my own tastes here and not like, broad market appeal, hence why I didn't mention Pokemon.

colliding posted...

anyway, all this talk about yoshi p when he isn't even the director of the game is just fuel for his personality cult, so I recommend not talking about him

Wow I had no idea he wasn't the director, he's the only one I've seen talked about and is seemingly constantly giving interviews so I just assumed >_>

That talking point has been parroted in a bunch of FF16 topics even though it gets clarified each time. In Japan, the producer has a lot of sway, on par with the director. And you really only have to take a look at the game and Yoshi-P's publicly-stated personal preferences to see that his influence is all over the place.

Leonhart4 posted...

Eh, it's not a problem in Mass Effect, where you only control Shepard and it still has a wonderful cast of characters, so I don't think the two are related.

The characters are nice but I don't feel a commander when I just blast through everything myself. I feel like they were either useless and dead or so strong I didn't have to worry about them. Maybe playing a harder difficulty would help. Oh I see you're just refuting his idea about characters being bad because of this, well whatever.

But more importantly realism just seems like a poor excuse for a video game. The idea that the action "comes to a halt" is silly because the battles are where the actions take place. And we're not trying to just copy paste 90s combat systems! Something like FF12 represents a marriage between turns and free movement, and that's also still very old. A snappy feel would be crucial. I guess I'll have to see if FF7R really goes far enough.

FFXII was the worst version of it because it gave the impression of action but it was still just waiting your turn

But you don't see turn-based systems in games like this very often because the people who play these type of games generally don't want them

It's the same reason retro RPGs don't have action systems

KamikazePotato posted...

That talking point has been parroted in a bunch of FF16 topics even though it gets clarified each time. In Japan, the producer has a lot of sway, on par with the director. And you really only have to take a look at the game and Yoshi-P's publicly-stated personal preferences to see that his influence is all over the place.

Wouldn't Yoshi-P have spent less time on FF16 than the director, since he's been working on FFXIV content the whole time as well?

If we're being real, the reason retro RPGs are turn based is because DnD is turn based.

MacArrowny posted...

Wouldn't Yoshi-P have spent less time on FF16 than the director, since he's been working on FFXIV content the whole time as well?

On the minutiae of the game, sure. The overall tone of the game and its story themes are 100% him going "I want to make this". And while the battle system is being heralded by the DMC5 Nero guy, there's FF14-esque elements incorporated into it that were probably suggested by Yoshi-P as well.

YoshiP staring bullets into the back of the UI designers head as he programs the limit break bar.

Honestly I may be looking forward to the OST more than the game.

All hail Soken, destroyer of cancer.

https://youtu.be/vk6dTkAmpfI

Xiahou_Shake posted...

If we're being real, the reason retro RPGs are turn based is because DnD is turn based.

Well yeah, but I'm talking about retro RPGs that are being made today. The turn-based system appeals to a specific audience who wants FF to be what it was 30 years ago, and Square has obliged with several offerings in that vein in recent years, even if they're not mainline FF games.

soul hackers 2 deserved to bomb but it's battle system isn't bad

it's worse than persona/press turn for sure though so I'm not sure what they were thinking really

this seems off topic but it's not I promise!

FF16 topics on this board have been 90% about people complaining about the death of turn-based combat systems. Always instigated and participated in by the exact same people. Including me - I've complained about this complaining on several occasions! I guess it's inevitable considering Square is keeping a lot of this game's story close to their chest, but I can't remember that a game that's been less fun to talk about pre-release.

I do think it's a bit ridiculous this time considering Octopath 2 released, like, yesterday. Plus stuff like Chained Echoes releasing fairly recently. Can't complain about no turn-based battle systems if you don't play the games that offer them.

KamikazePotato posted...

. Can't complain about no turn-based battle systems if you don't play the games that offer them.

You know we're on that Octopath /Chained echoes hype train AND complaining about FF16. We're selfish like that.

Game preview looks dope and I'm much more excited for this game now.

KamikazePotato posted...

I do think it's a bit ridiculous this time considering Octopath 2 released, like, yesterday. Plus stuff like Chained Echoes releasing fairly recently. Can't complain about no turn-based battle systems if you don't play the games that offer them.

I don't really agree with this argument. That's like if the NFL started playing lacrosse or something and you were "well college football and the XFL still exist so you can just watch that". Nah I want to see my favorite teams and players play football.

Good news, you still can

this is more like saying you don't like when the league changes the rules to something you regard as less enjoyable, which is fair, too, but it's how it goes sometimes

no I mean like all the teams and players are playing lacrosse and aren't allowed to play football anymore, so if you were a Chiefs fan you wouldn't be able to watch them or any of their players

sure you might enjoy college football too, but it would be normal to miss the Chiefs, Mahomes, etc.

anyway I'm excited to hear more about the hub worlds and hunts.

To me, Final Fantasy has always been a series that's all about reinventing itself so I have pretty much zero qualms with seeing the gameplay do pretty much literally anything it wants within the rough confines of "RPG". It's really been a series about inconsistency since, like, FF2.

Dragon Quest on the other hand is pretty much defined by its adherence to tradition so if DQ12 does indeed shirk the traditional gameplay, I'll definitely empathize with the folks who are sad/upset to see it, even if I myself may still end up more excited about whatever else they decide to try.

I feel like people were a lot more enthusiastic about the series changing to an action battle system before FFXV came out and somehow had worse combat than Square's other ARPGs (KH and such).

I actually like the combat in FFXV in that super early Carbuncle demo, but the final product was so horrendous. I don't know what kind of feedback they got to ruin it so much.

Xiahou_Shake posted...

To me, Final Fantasy has always been a series that's all about reinventing itself so I have pretty much zero qualms with seeing the gameplay do pretty much literally anything it wants within the rough confines of "RPG". It's really been a series about inconsistency since, like, FF2.

Dragon Quest on the other hand is pretty much defined by its adherence to tradition so if DQ12 does indeed shirk the traditional gameplay, I'll definitely empathize with the folks who are sad/upset to see it, even if I myself may still end up more excited about whatever else they decide to try.

This is the correctest take. Final Fantasy is about pushing boundaries. It has always been about pushing boundaries. The most widely hailed FFs (everything from FF4 to FF8, really, plus FFX) were the ones that kept doing wildly different shit from their contemporaries and predecessors. It would be failing the series' ultimate tradition to just go back to basic ATB. The compromise was that multiple series (plural) inherited various versions of FF's turn based systems, so those could still thrive while the flagship series went off in a brave new direction. And that's OK IMO. Saying 'Final Fantasy should have ATB!' is just being afraid of change and we don't need to be IMO. The franchise is always at its best when it's doing things nobody else even thought could be possible.