Board 8 > ~FIGHT!~ Zenos, Selvaria, Tifa, Kiryu vs. Tusk, Aigis, Kirby, Sagat

(+) Yeah! (+)

Kirby is dead. He starts in the air next to Tifa, but he was dolphin kicked and gonna not stop blasting away til he is on the literal moon.

Luckily it is in a mountain though I guess.

Oh BTW

Something I forgot that is both funny and actually important and powerful

Kiryu's Staminan Royale bottles have medicine that boosts health...but they also ramp up his Heat gauge. A lot. Heat is very comparable to Limit Breaks as presented in the FF7 universe, right down to characters being surrounded by a blue glow while benefitting from it. Kiryu, tough dude that he is, is liable to toss Tifa a bottle if he sees she's at all wounded. You know what's better than one Dolphin Flurry? Two Dolphin Flurries, IMO.

Johnbobb posted...

One thing I'm not fully sold on is Aigis. I get how Kirby gets away but how does she? Can she survive the initial onslaught? Trying to understand what Persona characters can do is difficult even when I've played the game, and hers I haven't. From what I can tell from her she's at her best at a range, but doesn't seem to be exceptionally mobile or durable.

Aigis has jets in her legs.

https://youtu.be/jbYvblCtz1I

She's good. Others of her model (or older) use it for flight and escape.

If you're wondering whether Aigis can safely take that limit and not get mauled after BTW:

https://gfycat.com/deliriousrevolvingbluetickcoonhound-shin-megami-tensei-persona-3-fes

One good hit from Metis (another robot) sends her flying, wounded. She's gonna be absolutely feeling that Dolphin Flurry.

And speaking of Kirby's and Aigis' flying capabilities -- you know what Zenos can do? Cast lightning bolts. Just one of those sent Omega reeling. You know what Aigis is weak to? Lightning. You know what she can't do while flying? Become resistant to lightning. She's dooooooone.

How literally are we taking "entrance"? Like literally the loading zone or are they in the center of the first room? Because I re-read the terrain and it said Spiral Mountain is accessible. It's possible that Tifa gets knocked out of the lair entirely and either onto the bridge or below the lair's entrance. If she falls that far, I think it's a lot more likely that Aigis and Kirby escape.

Metis is exactly equal to Aigis in strength for plot reasons.

"I was able to send myself flying with a punch" proves very little other than you're very strong we're all very proud. I couldn't do that. I would assume most robots designed for combat could, regardless of build, like if The Crushinator couldn't send The Crushinator flying, I'd be concerned about The Crushinator's prospects as a Crushinator!

I'm glad Zenos has swapped from cleaving her to shooting lightning specifically, though. If he's NOT cleaving her, Kirby has the opportunity to properly escape with her underground. "But how will Kirby know what option" well if Zenos has nifty little battle precog, Kirbo can make that work, too. Learn what's coming, react, escape. Like again, wanna emphasize Kirby is legit just. In the air, free to act. And also he's Zenos.

Kamekguy posted...

Metis is exactly equal to Aigis in strength for plot reasons.

"I was able to send myself flying with a punch" proves very little other than you're very strong we're all very proud. I couldn't do that. I would assume most robots designed for combat could, regardless of build, like if The Crushinator couldn't send The Crushinator flying, I'd be concerned about The Crushinator's prospects as a Crushinator!

I'm glad Zenos has swapped from cleaving her to shooting lightning specifically, though. If he's NOT cleaving her, Kirby has the opportunity to properly escape with her underground. "But how will Kirby know what option" well if Zenos has nifty little battle precog, Kirbo can make that work, too. Learn what's coming, react, escape. Like again, wanna emphasize Kirby is legit just. In the air, free to act. And also he's Zenos.

There's no swapping here. The point I'm making is that even if you think Aigis and Kirby could outrange his slashing range (they can't), Zenos still has options with pinpoint tracking to shoot them down. Unlike Tusk, he's not limited to just close quarters combat.

Ok looked into Tusk some more and I think

Team Sagat

Team Zenos

maybe doesnt always win, but with Kirby and aigis at a disadvantage and tusks win condition being sagat cannot die I struggle to see how this goes the other way more often than not

Aight, despite my posts against Zenos before, I should note that my respect for him is crazy high.

To quote someone from the Discord who can't post on B8 yet:

"Do not let them be harmed or the badass warrior won't fight you" - well aigis has already been dolphin kicked half to death so that's not happening. the best selvaria can do at this point is try to hide the bodies

That's enough for me. Team A TEST OF YOUR REFLEXES!

Team Zenos

I don't think the instructions work for long enough for Kirby and Aigis to not get wrecked, and it's just downhill from there.

Drak brought up a good point in the Discord about how Selvaria prioritizes Zenos's safety above all else, and Zenos is probably going to be counter-attacked by Aigis and Kirby. So she'll disobey the other orders to protect Zenos, and if that's the case Team Zenos wins.

What's throwing me is I just really don't get this argument of Zenos just immediately killing everybody super quick. In the videos shown, especially that first one, he's moving at a snail's pace and the giant blast he lets out doesn't seem like it's actually doing anything

alternate argument

If Selvaria sees a very small creature that looks like her master and has his abilities, will she attack it?

Am I seeing some orders are orders disrespek from Mr Lopen

Johnbobb posted...

What's throwing me is I just really don't get this argument of Zenos just immediately killing everybody super quick. In the videos shown, especially that first one, he's moving at a snail's pace and the giant blast he lets out doesn't seem like it's actually doing anything

You mean the one where he breaks Shinryu's prison? It cleaves the containment system in half and then makes every single piece of its drone array explode with a single sword swing. It's a showcase of both his reach (he never moves from the spot and hits targets like twenty to thirty feet away from him and behind the trapped dragon) and AoE (there's like an easy dozen plus small targets to tag on top of the central system). Or am I misunderstanding what you're referring to?

Please keep in mind that Kirby and Aigis know this plan. Like they KNOW Selvaria has gotten these orders. Zenos and Selvaria have explicitly not been attacked at all so far, they are not under fire, only Tifa is and she hit a woman unprompted. Kiryu too but that's funny. Selvaria is comparatively not gonna give a shit past "OH NO MY LORD'S ULTIMATE CONQUEST"

With that said, for all of those who do think Aigis is absolutely dumpstered... that means Zenos is not focusing on Kirby. Please understand, if Aigis knows she is going to die, she is gonna do so making sure Kirby is 100% okay. Please understand, those Zenos attacks? Those are going RIGHT at a conflicted Selvaria and a stunned Tifa and Kiryu.

And THEN Kirby runs away. Probably injured after Zenos has dealt with Aigis, sure, but I am not seeing her go down in one here. Even when hit with lightning, she just gets ONE MORE'd and usually stunned, it's not like Pokemon where she becomes turbofodder'd instantly.

Though I do wanna ask Kanz a bit of a question - how does Zenos' "mild precog" work, exactly? Like what are its specific parameters, when it triggers, etc?

The issue is, even if Kirby gets away, it still leads to a 4 v 3 where the strongest member of the team down in numbers doesn't have to be taken out. Kiryu can hand out his Staminans to heal up, whereas Kirby has no way of healing himself. I don't see an injured Kirby and Sagat very long against Selvaria, Kiryu, and Tifa.

Zenos' precognition is an artificial form of a magically granted permanent boon, The Echo (his version is known in game as 'Resonance'). In very very simplified terms, it allows him to read the currents of aether (the life energy that sustains everything, and which powers up both martial techniques, magic and even many forms of technology in the world of XIV) and react to incoming attacks based on that. We see this in action in gameplay once, here:

https://youtu.be/eVw-1qm2eIE?t=263

(this isn't Zenos but the enemy fought here, Fordola, has the same kind of Resonance as him)

As you can see, it doesn't matter what you hit Fordola with, she simply counters it because she can read your moves. It takes a special gadget that the Warrior of Light is handed with instructions to use it when the time is right and not knowing what it'll do to foil the Resonance and keep it from activating, allowing it to be cancelled temporarily.

We see Zenos use his Resonance here, in turn:

https://youtu.be/RVb5oPybGas?t=32

(watch for about a minute and ten or so)

Everything up until his eye turns dark is just pure battle skill and instincts on his part. Working out that a forcefield would allow him to completely no-sell the incoming dual tech is his Resonance gift kicking in.

Kirby can actually regen his own health on-hit using the Morpho Knight Sword, which can be swapped to in a pinch (and is ultra evasive like, dude's got teleport spam like crazy with it going on. Trust me, I know, I spammed with it) and has the disruption wave effect which causes confusion (in Star Allies is actively makes your allies lose control and attack P1, even if they're normally human controlled. In Forgotten Land it screws with your vision). I do see it as a very valid option for later in the fight after his Zenos AoE stuff has really messed up Tifa and Kiryu, but I do admit "full heal" sounds juicier.

Y'know if they have time to drink it before they die.

Zenos viator Galvus butchers

Unless I have missed a line where he himself has some sort of special reason to toy with the enemy, he's just going to murder the people next to tifa since they are both prone to start and he certainly has the attack potency required to do so. After that is done in short order, because Zenos is so not playing with people so weak as they are beneath his time to waste unless there is some sort of clause (or PLOT) then yeah. We don't see on screen the hundreds this guy murders for the fun of it because it's not compelling use of game time, but his legacy as a butcher is pretty well known. It just so happens most of his screen time is fanboying over the warrior of light, which is fair WoL is based.

Anyway bye

i haven't read any posts in this topic has anyone argued that zenos will turn into shinryu and hilariously use tidal wave to knock the enemy into pits and get flooded through the lair

because that would be funny i encourage this

KanzarisKelshen posted...

Dear vassal, it is I, Zenos viator Galvus.

wait does zenos refer to himself as viator, it doesn't seem like he would

I will now gladly argue that Kirby uses his Zenos tidal wave to knock every enemy out of the lair and onto Spiral Mountain, breaking their spines horribly.

zenos & selvaria SOLOES

tusk seems like a really cool merc but the stip that he leaves the battle kinds cements it

this isn't nearly as one-sided as some people make it out to be but ultimately Zenos barely takes it

although I fully demand people to properly respect Zenos Kirby after this

Johnbobb posted...

this isn't nearly as one-sided as some people make it out to be but ultimately Zenos barely takes it

although I fully demand people to properly respect Zenos Kirby after this

My kirby respect is massively expanded off having to fight him here ngl

I was unsure what the reactions would be but the lil guy's a menace

Dante posted...

KanzarisKelshen posted...

Dear vassal, it is I, Zenos viator Galvus.

wait does zenos refer to himself as viator, it doesn't seem like he would

this is a good point, I also don't think he would? it's a derogatory title given to him by third parties. so Selvaria might be able to suss out that it's a fake message (not sure how quick on the uptake she is)

but even assuming she believes it, I think the match opens with Zenos fighting Kirby/Aigis. considering Selvaria's #1 priority is protecting her lord, she seems the type to back him up in combat instead of arguing with him over battle tactics while Aigis is trying to gun both of them down.

and yeah, Tank is good, but the "last man standing" clause kind of makes things rough for his team.

Team Zenos

zenos could literally solo this

I have to go with Team Zenos, but its a bit closer than I first expected.

CHANGE to team Zenos

missed the bit where Sagat dying poofs tusk.

Given that Selvaria is 100% gonna kill Sagat that 2 on 3 for Kirby and Aigis (with my contention that kirby absolutely kills Tifa instantly) is a bit rough for them.

When I saw Kiryu I expected Mechagodzilla and was like "what"

I think my take on this is that Aigis just gets murdered in the opener by Zenos, Kirby probably escapes via drill/wheel. If we say Kiryu and Sagat have a bro-brawl somewhere (which is likely) then Tifa / Selvaria / Zenos get to fight Tusk / Kirby, and I think they win. Even if Kirby is a complete Zenos-clone. Mostly because once Kirby reveals himself as a powerful/identical foe Zenos is going to fight him (with Tifa on his side) while Selvaria stalls Tusk. I think she can hold out (with her 2x lives) long enough for Kirby to go down and then Tusk has a 3v1 (or 2v1 if he manages to KO Selvaria twice in the meantime) and Zenos with Tifa backing him (the only materia she needed to have picked up before they flew into battle was Carbuncle for the auto-raise) will eventually wear Tusk out. at that point whoever's left goes and cleans up Kiryu/Sagat.

I am giving Kirby way more respect than anyone else on purpose just to see if it swings the fight and since I don't believe it does I'm coming down on the side of Team Zenos viator Galvus, and friends(?).

As I said earlier (in discord) I don't think the advice is going to change much, mainly because Zenos isn't going to pay attention to Selvaria's "No, my lord!" until Aigis is already dead and at that point Selvaria has to give up on the idea as the 'don't let them be harmed' bit of the advice has already been rendered moot, and the best she can do is stall Tusk out while Zenos fights Kirby-zenos so he gets to fight TWO awesome powerful foes in a single day. Which would make him very happy. Number one subordinate, this girl. It would be a different fight if Aigis got to live more than five seconds but she would eventually end up dead due to lightning attacks later on in the battle so... eh. I like Aigis but this just wasn't her day.

Mail-in vote from Mistaya (who will be joining us tonight to vote on the other match topic! Grr b8 posting restrictions).

I'm gonna be dead honest, I got a lot further than I thought I was gonna.

Dante posted...

wait does zenos refer to himself as viator, it doesn't seem like he would

Team Zenos

Selvaria is very loyal and no questions asked but I think she's smart enough to catch this when Zenos says "no I didn't"

Zenos yae Galvus
(technicality, if was viator, would be later in story.)

I'd think Kirby and Aigis would get just cut down at the start, even with Selvaria's confusion, and then just a huntdown of Sagat, with Tusk being a problem but 2v4 is a bit one sided with the teams. I would like to see post battle.

Zenos vs Tusk "No, you don't get the choice of leaving me unsatisfied, you fight me or die!"