Poll of the Day > Bayonetta's VA not reprising her role in 3 because she was only offered $4k

(+) Yeah! (+)

for the main character of a very popular series

https://twitter.com/hellenataylor/status/1581289084718227456

and kamiya gets ratio'd to hell because maybe he wasn't just pretending be to an ass all this time

https://twitter.com/PG_kamiya/status/1581316361657102337

who ever thought he was pretending

until now he's only blocked people for writing messages to him in english or for random silly reasons, like some of the wonderful 101 pledges "rewarded" a block and one of the stretch goals had him unblock everyone. it's explicitly been a gag most of the time

he's now blocking people who are asking him about the bayonetta situation in japanese which is just straight malicious deflection

That's how actors do, I don't blame her.

Define "very popular series"

jsb0714 posted...

Define "very popular series"

Popular enough to be in Smash is popular enough.

agesboy posted...

until now he's only blocked people for writing messages to him in english or for random silly reasons, like some of the wonderful 101 pledges "rewarded" a block and one of the stretch goals had him unblock everyone. it's explicitly been a gag most of the time

he's now blocking people who are asking him about the bayonetta situation in japanese which is just straight malicious deflection

maybe on social media, but the dude has a reputation for being an asshole for a reason

If that is true, how many hours of VA work was it?

Like... if it was 10 hours, that'd be $400/hr. Not sure how many hours it takes to record lines that amount to X amount of time in the finished product.

Also, didn't she get replaced by Jennifer Hale, who is a far bigger name VA and also part of a union/guild? Either she's lying, or Kamiya oddly offered her (way?) less than he ended up paying out to the replacement anyway, which makes no sense.

keyblader1985 posted...

Popular enough to be in Smash is popular enough.

Plenty of characters that the vast majority have never heard of make it into Smash, if they're owned by Nintendo or at least 2nd party.

jsb0714 posted...

Define "very popular series"

3 million copies in two games seems pretty popular to me. Sure, it's no Pokemon or Mario, but that's still pretty respectable.

streamofthesky posted...

If that is true, how many hours of VA work was it?

Like... if it was 10 hours, that'd be $400/hr. Not sure how many hours it takes to record lines that amount to X amount of time in the finished product.

Also, didn't she get replaced by Jennifer Hale, who is a far bigger name VA and also part of a union/guild? Either she's lying, or Kamiya oddly offered her (way?) less than he ended up paying out to the replacement anyway, which makes no sense.

Plenty of characters that the vast majority have never heard of make it into Smash, if they're owned by Nintendo or at least 2nd party.

the only character that that really fits for is ness, and even then people know who he is now

streamofthesky posted...

Like... if it was 10 hours, that'd be $400/hr. Not sure how many hours it takes to record lines that amount to X amount of time in the finished product.

i can tell you right now that they aren't doing all of the voicework for the main character in 1-2 sessions lol

that is massively underestimating the amount of effort that goes into voicework

hera posted...

the only character that that really fits for is ness, and even then people know who he is now

Marth and Roy were pretty fucking "who?", at least in the West, pre-Melee.
Game & Watch?
And while he's an awesome character from my 2nd favorite game of all time... we really gonna pretend Shulk was well-known before Smash?

marth and roy were definitely applicable back then because global localization wasn't as big of a thing as it is now, but their popularity has since caught up for the most part

streamofthesky posted...

Game & Watch?

lol zoomer

streamofthesky posted...

And while he's an awesome character from my 2nd favorite game of all time... we really gonna pretend Shulk was well-known before Smash?

1.5 mil sales of specifically XC1 pre-melee means he isn't unknown, at least, and he had DLC during the peak of Xenoblade 2's popularity

he was pretty well known then, yeah

hell, just the campaign to even bring xenoblade out of japan made people aware of him

adjl posted...

3 million copies in two games seems pretty popular to me. Sure, it's no Pokemon or Mario, but that's still pretty respectable.

So is it "very popular" or " respectable"?

agesboy posted...

marth and roy were definitely applicable back then because global localization wasn't as big of a thing as it is now, but their popularity has since caught up for the most part

Yeah, that's my point. They weren't well known, getting in Smash made them well known.
Nintendo puts their own characters in all the time, specifically to "market" their games.

lol zoomer

ok, boomer?

1.5 mil sales of specifically XC1 pre-melee means he isn't unknown, at least, and he had DLC during the peak of Xenoblade 2's popularity

Not unknown, far from "popular".
I watch people play XC1 all the time, it's my favorite story ever and it's interesting seeing people react to the plot twists.
Vast majority go in knowing him as "that guy from Smash Bros". And when his trailer reveal came out, a lot of people didn't know who he was.

streamofthesky posted...

ok, boomer?

43 MILLION sales dude

your zoomer ignorance doesn't make it niche. it was fucking massive and left a big cultural impact

streamofthesky posted...

Vast majority go in knowing him as "that guy from Smash Bros". And when his trailer reveal came out, a lot of people didn't know who he was.

i'm gonna need a citation of the "vast majority" here that doesn't come directly from your ass

This has David Hayter and MGSV written all over it. Jenn Hale is going to be FAR more expensive than Helena would ever be. They were planning on replacing her and gave her an insulting offer to ensure it.

Zero knowledge on VA pay. How bad of an offer is 4k? What should one expect?

From what I've heard, it's insultingly low (especially the first offer, which was below $4k; she only got the $4k offer after directly messaging Hideki Kamiya). The franchise has made $450m not counting merch, and English Bayonetta is apparently one of the few roles that weebs will actually turn English subs back on for because she nails it.

Shit varies a lot though. Like: https://twitter.com/sonicmega/status/1581330480179208192

Video game voice actors are absolutely underpaid. Bayonetta's VA noted in one of her videos today that she just can't afford a car at current rates. It's hard to exactly gauge how underpaid they are, because wage discussions are often covered by NDA's.... which Bayonetta's VA is ignoring because she does not have enough money to be worth prosecuting lol.

By hour they're certainly paid a lot, but they comparatively don't have a stable source of income unless you're Tara Strong or JYB or... Jennifer Hale, the new Bayonetta. Honestly, JP->NA entertainment looks like an objectively shit umbrella to be under. Translators- even popular ones- usually get paid near minimum wage. Crunchy has had a lot of drama recently for how horrifically they pay their TLs.

https://twitter.com/shinimomi/status/1581381779868778496

lmao (yeah i know it's probably automated because of mass reports, but he tanked his entire reputation among people that liked him in one tweet)

agesboy posted...

Crunchy has had a lot of drama recently for how horrifically they pay their TLs.

The kicker is that Crunchyroll's TLs are not even that good. I don't know how fast they have to translate them but ONIBE (one of the few fan TL groups left) takes ~5 hours to release their Love Live subs, and they are always high quality (and include things like custom Karaoke typesetting which we don't see in CR's subs).

They've burned bridges with any translators that might have been competent, so I legit wouldn't be surprised if at least a few works each season are just edited DeepL machine translation. It's not like their wages justify much more.

I have to wonder if they were just trying to push Taylor out in favor of Hale (who is, to be fair, a much bigger name), but also is going to be commensurately WAY more expensive. I doubt Jennifer would even respond to an offer of $4K.

DiScOrDtHeLuNaTiC posted...

I have to wonder if they were just trying to push Taylor out in favor of Hale (who is, to be fair, a much bigger name), but also is going to be commensurately WAY more expensive. I doubt Jennifer would even respond to an offer of $4K.

If switching VA was their goal all along, they could've just told Helena they were going in a new direction for the sequel or something. she's not owed a job for every bit of Bayonetta VA work in the future.
Cause like you said, Hale presumably would cost way more.
So none of this makes sense as presented thus far...

It's a niche series on what's a presumably limited budget given that.... It's a niche series.

And really, how long are the Bayonetta games? They're short right? How much dialogue can there possibly be. She's well within her right to turn that down as an independent contractor, but the offer itself doesn't seem that criminal without knowing the details regarding the game itself. Could've been a quick and easy $4000, and now for someone else it likely will be.

Krow_Incarnate posted...

It's

There's a reason why so many people are disagreeing with you. Your entire post is predicated on ignorance about the job. Other people who are in the industry are backing her up on this.

Also, big spoilers for Bayonetta 3: It's a multiverse sort of game with alternate versions of Bayonetta. This means that whoever voiced Bayonetta in the game would have to voice multiple "versions" of her. It should go without saying that this means that the role is larger than one would expect, and voicing Bayonetta is NOT a small thing to do to begin with.

That's pretty insulting.

streamofthesky posted...

If switching VA was their goal all along, they could've just told Helena they were going in a new direction for the sequel or something. she's not owed a job for every bit of Bayonetta VA work in the future.

she was probably licensed for 3+ games in her original audition for bayonentta 1 and they used this fucking super lowball as a way to get rid of her. it's not rockett science lol

of course she's owed nothing, but we can all hear the difference. and we can choose to not support the game anymore.

Japanese company treats it's employees like shit. No surprise there.

streamofthesky posted...

If that is true, how many hours of VA work was it?

Like... if it was 10 hours, that'd be $400/hr. Not sure how many hours it takes to record lines that amount to X amount of time in the finished product.

This, although even then it feels a little light.

Count_Drachma posted...

This, although even then it feels a little light.

I don't know. Apparently she said her previous gigs for the games were like 16 hours of work. I actually thought it might be a bit more than that, but really don't know how many hours of work it takes to get the (at best, being very generous) 5 total hours of Bayonetta dialogue in a game.
If it is 16 hours, then that's $250/hr, which seems pretty fair.
And again, there's no way in hell Jennifer Hale did it for less than Taylor.
So I'm very skeptical... if the job had gone to some no-name they got for cheap, it'd be more believable

streamofthesky posted...

I don't know. Apparently she said her previous gigs for the games were like 16 hours of work. I actually thought it might be a bit more than that, but really don't know how many hours of work it takes to get the (at best, being very generous) 5 total hours of Bayonetta dialogue in a game.
If it is 16 hours, then that's $250/hr, which seems pretty fair.
And again, there's no way in hell Jennifer Hale did it for less than Taylor.
So I'm very skeptical... if the job had gone to some no-name they got for cheap, it'd be more believable

Ok, found the interview people were referencing regarding the amount of time she spent on the prior games.

https://youtu.be/G1k7Cwr66O0?t=450

kamiya deleted his Twitter account

streamofthesky posted...

If it is 16 hours, then that's $250/hr, which seems pretty fair.

Look at it in terms of regular jobs? Sure. Look at it in terms of the entertainment industry and how much the lead roles make in other media? It's an absolute joke.

The Bayonetta franchise has grossed $450 million. In any other medium, the actor behind the titular character would be a millionaire several times over, and quite deservedly so given that the acting behind the character is a major component of the overall style that has drawn so many people to the series. That $4000 is seen as acceptable (and more than that, an industry norm) is utterly ludicrous, as is the idea that the flagship character who has defined the series is seen as so replaceable.

The usual response to this is that it's not particularly fair to offer royalties and larger salaries to voice actors when the developers that put more work into the game don't get that, and that's very true. The mistake, however, is using that to justify keeping VA's from being properly compensated instead of using it to demand proper compensation for everyone working on the game.

streamofthesky posted...

And again, there's no way in hell Jennifer Hale did it for less than Taylor.

There's a good chance they just wanted a bigger name and lowballed Taylor for the sake of driving her out. It's what happened with Keifer Sutherland replacing David Hayter, despite how undeniably essential Hayter's performance was for establishing Snake as a character. Studios like the idea of attaching bigger names to their products for promotional reasons, but in practice it rarely does anything to improve the product (and in many cases actually makes it worse, such as everyone's reaction to Pratt's Mario). Screen actors are not necessarily good voice actors, which is something a whole lot of people don't seem to realize despite making the same mistake and seeing the consequences repeatedly.

adjl posted...

Look at it in terms of regular jobs? Sure. Look at it in terms of the entertainment industry and how much the lead roles make in other media? It's an absolute joke.

Except it's not, it's within the typical union standard for VA wages.

The Bayonetta franchise has grossed $450 million.

That "figure" is complete fucking bull shit.
To make $450 million on sales, not including merchandise (as she clarified), it would need to sell 7.5 million copies at the full $60 price point.
Bayonetta 1 was a sales flop, it probably sold a million eventually but went on discount fast.
Bayonetta 2 I heard sold only 400K copies, b/c it was on the Wii U only.
Not sure what the Switch ports sold, but no way in hell did the Bayonetta franchise make that much money.
I love the series, but it's sadly not that popular and has nearly died multiple times.

In any other medium, the actor behind the titular character would be a millionaire several times over, and quite deservedly so given that the acting behind the character is a major component of the overall style that has drawn so many people to the series. That $4000 is seen as acceptable (and more than that, an industry norm) is utterly ludicrous, as is the idea that the flagship character who has defined the series is seen as so replaceable.

"In any other medium"
This is video games. The VA might be a huge part of it for like... a visual novel.
But for a short action game like Bayonetta? Oh, fuck no. The actual programming of the game, the combat, the QA testing, all sorts of other factors are far more important than the VA.
That $4000 would be for roughly 16 hours of work over 4 days, as Hellena said regarding prior Bayonetta jobs.
That is a fair wage. It's a week of work. You can't live off 1 week of work, it's insane to expect that. She's apparently mainly a theater actress, so I don't know what her income situation is like. But looking at her extremely paltry VA credits, being a VA is clearly not her main career.

The usual response to this is that it's not particularly fair to offer royalties and larger salaries to voice actors when the developers that put more work into the game don't get that, and that's very true. The mistake, however, is using that to justify keeping VA's from being properly compensated instead of using it to demand proper compensation for everyone working on the game.

And yet it's always the fucking VAs that are whining.
You say everyone should be paid more? Then start with those underpaid, overworked developers. They have the worst fucking deal in all of this right now.

There's a good chance they just wanted a bigger name and lowballed Taylor for the sake of driving her out. It's what happened with Keifer Sutherland replacing David Hayter, despite how undeniably essential Hayter's performance was for establishing Snake as a character. Studios like the idea of attaching bigger names to their products for promotional reasons, but in practice it rarely does anything to improve the product (and in many cases actually makes it worse, such as everyone's reaction to Pratt's Mario). Screen actors are not necessarily good voice actors, which is something a whole lot of people don't seem to realize despite making the same mistake and seeing the consequences repeatedly.

Yeah. Which sucks if it's the case (I don't give a shit about an actor's "fame", I'd rather keep the same person that did the job fine all along), but again Platinum is under no obligation to hire her for every game.
The insane frothing rage over this is astounding.
Rockstar forced their team into months of overtime crunch for Red Dead Redemption 2, for example. Which is way worse than giving one person a lowball offer. On a far bigger game/franchise. And ellicited nowhere near this much outcry.

streamofthesky posted...

Rockstar forced their team into months of overtime crunch for Red Dead Redemption 2, for example. Which is way worse than giving one person a lowball offer. On a far bigger game/franchise. And ellicited nowhere near this much outcry.

there was a pretty huge outcry from that when it happened, you just weren't listening lol

I play all vidya games on mute
Sounds are just distractions

I mean I'd accept 4K just for voice acting but if I were part of a popular video game series I'd expect a bit more so idk.

wwinterj25 posted...

I mean I'd accept 4K just for voice acting but if I were part of a popular video game series I'd expect a bit more so idk.

i mean if you've spend hundreds to thousands of hours training and learning a profession that gets accomplished in short bursts and gigs were far between, you wouldn't have the same expectations hourly as a 9 to 5 job

Pretty sure the series has sold less than 3 million copies combined, hardly what you'd call "hugely popular."

agesboy posted...

i mean if you've spend hundreds to thousands of hours training and learning a profession that gets accomplished in short bursts and gigs were far between, you wouldn't have the same expectations hourly as a 9 to 5 job

As I said she should expect more but 4K isn't to be sniffed at for one project as a voice actor.

it is actually since you only get a few roles per month no matter how hard you hustle, due to the nature of the profession

agesboy posted...

it is actually since you only get a few roles per month no matter how hard you hustle, due to the nature of the profession

Honest question, what do you think is a good salary for a voice actor in the videogame industry then?

Because as far as I know, the market rate is about 250$ per hour of work. And as far as I know, Taylor recorded previous Bayonetta games in 16h of work.

So... 4000$ seems to be the market rate, and it's being offered for a game that is not immensely popular, and made by a company that isn't that well-off... What more do you expect?

streamofthesky posted...

Except it's not, it's within the typical union standard for VA wages.

And the typical union standard is a joke. SAG-AFTRA is notoriously flaccid when it comes to negotiating video game VA wages, in part because they think very little of the medium and in part because the industry pushes back so hard against compensating anyone properly and they just can't be bothered to do their job and push back harder.

streamofthesky posted...

"In any other medium"
This is video games.

And why should that make a difference?

streamofthesky posted...

But for a short action game like Bayonetta? Oh, f*** no. The actual programming of the game, the combat, the QA testing, all sorts of other factors are far more important than the VA.

I'd handily rank the VA work as being just as important as the visuals, soundtrack, sound effects, and other such parts of the game. Sure, they're not the main focus, but when they're done well (and they were done well), they tremendously enhance the experience.

Thematically, so much of the Bayonetta games relies on who she is as a character. You can't tell me that the game would be equally enjoyable if the combos were reduced to mere hit counts and damage numbers between nondescript polygons instead of flashy, over-the-top eviscerations, and Taylor's performance is a major part of establishing a character that's consistent with those visuals. She did an excellent job, and deserves to be compensated accordingly, just like everyone else that contributed to that.

This also is not at all unique to video games. Movies have hundreds of people working on them much harder than the actors do that play roles no less important, yet receive a pittance compared to the actors. Why, then, is it acceptable to pay screen actors orders of magnitude more than their behind-the-scenes colleagues, but so unfathomable to pay the voice actors that provide the bulk of the front-end performance more than those working on the back end?

streamofthesky posted...

That $4000 would be for roughly 16 hours of work over 4 days, as Hellena said regarding prior Bayonetta jobs.

In addition to months of auditions (including travel, in many cases) and other communication leading up to actually getting the part. The nature of gig work is such that distilling it down to an hourly wage fundamentally misunderstands it. Making $250 an hour doesn't amount to much when you only get to work for 16 hours before having to hunt for a new job.

streamofthesky posted...

And yet it's always the f***ing VAs that are whining.

Because they have a union. That's what unions do: Give those represented by them the power to push for better treatment. In a world where not pushing for better treatment means getting treated like garbage, you can bet they'll take advantage of their privilege to whine whenever they can, and they absolutely should.

streamofthesky posted...

You say everyone should be paid more? Then start with those underpaid, overworked developers. They have the worst f***ing deal in all of this right now.

Why pick only one to start with? I can care about multiple instances of corporate exploitation at a time, you know. Possible avenues include boycotting games that excessively crunched their staff, boycotting studios that abuse their staff, boycotting studios that engage in union-busting...

streamofthesky posted...

Rockstar forced their team into months of overtime crunch for Red Dead Redemption 2, for example. Which is way worse than giving one person a lowball offer. On a far bigger game/franchise. And ellicited nowhere near this much outcry.

This has been going on for like two days. There were definitely at least two days of outcry about RDR2's crunch. I also have no intention of ever buying RDR2 because of how Rockstar treated the devs. Same with Cyberpunk. Same with anything Actiblizz or Ubisoft squirt out.

Personally, I'm undecided on what this means for me buying Bayonetta 3. I wasn't planning to get it right away anyway because I still need to finish 1 and play 2, but this has kind of soured my interest a bit and may turn me off of ever getting it. That said, to boycott Bayonetta over this behaviour would, for consistency's sake, require me to boycott most of the games industry. As much as it's terrible, it's also really widespread, to the point where a targeted boycott is pretty much impossible.

AliceShiki posted...
So... 4000$ seems to be the market rate, and it's being offered for a game that is not immensely popular, and made by a company that isn't that well-off... What more do you expect?

Whatever they're paying Hale, at least, since I can guarantee she didn't take $4000.

Thinking about all the advances we've seen in AI recently, I wonder how long it's going to take to the technology to replace voice acting. Removing actors that age and ask for money in favor of a mascot.voice file you can quickly implement in any product sounds like a corporate wet dream.

So... does that make Jennifer Hale a hard worker... or a voice slut?

4000 dollars to voice a main character for a AAA game with an established series is fucking criminal.

Not to mention the fucking TON of dialog that's in the first 2 games.

funkyfritter posted...

Thinking about all the advances we've seen in AI recently, I wonder how long it's going to take to the technology to replace voice acting. Removing actors that age and ask for money in favor of a mascot.voice file you can quickly implement in any product sounds like a corporate wet dream.

Hard to say. Voice acting in games is still relatively new, to the point where claiming that a game is anywhere close to fully voiced is still something that can be used to market it (to the point where releasing a AAA game without some manner of voice acting is almost unheard of). Generate the voice with an AI, and you lose the ability to claim that, so it may be more trouble than it's worth. We're also very far out from being able to generate a voice that's going to be as good as an actual VA (at least a well-selected one that does a good job), so having a real voice actor will continue to be something that can be marketed (much like having fully orchestrated soundtracks was in the mid-2000's).

funkyfritter posted...

Thinking about all the advances we've seen in AI recently, I wonder how long it's going to take to the technology to replace voice acting. Removing actors that age and ask for money in favor of a mascot.voice file you can quickly implement in any product sounds like a corporate wet dream.

Unlikely to ever happen. People really overestimate the uses of AI.

They're useful alright, but they don't substitute people. Not in art, not in translation, not in VA. They don't do the job well-enough for that, and it's impossible for their improvement to reach the point you want.

Of course, if you want a cheap job, AI is definitely functional, but a well-done job requires a human's interpretation of the work.
EvilMegas posted...

4000 dollars to voice a main character for a AAA game with an established series is fucking criminal.

Not to mention the fucking TON of dialog that's in the first 2 games.

Bayonetta is AA at best. It's far from AAA. It's an IP that almost got cancelled a few times and that only exists because Nintendo saved it.

The first two games don't have that much dialogue. Taylor herself said that the recording for previous games was done in 16h.
adjl posted...

Whatever they're paying Hale, at least, since I can guarantee she didn't take $4000.

You absolutely do not know that.

Hale has a buttload of jobs, differently from Taylor. I believe Hale is credited in over 200 works in imdb, while Taylor is credited in like... 24 or something.

Taylor can take market rate for a job. She has plenty of other jobs coming her way and she doesn't have to worry about making ends meet at the end of each month. Market rate is, most likely, perfectly fine for her.

Of course, there's no way to know how much she is being paid, but it's perfectly plausible that she accepted the job for market rate, because she, quite frankly, has no reason to reject a job that is paying a fair amount for what it asks of her.

What we have to wonder is why did Taylor refused to be paid the standard market rate. Because that is kinda baffling, especially when she is struggling financially and doesn't have many jobs coming her way.