Board 8 > Bayonetta voice actress Hellena Taylor calls for a boycott of Bayonetta 3

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Thorn
10/18/22 5:18:01 PM
#151:


LordoftheMorons posted...
But it isnt standard (and from what I can tell not even an occasional thing that happens for big name VAs).
Per Schreier's article, the union had gone on strike over residuals and while it was dropped in exchange for some bonuses the act that they had a year-long strike over it implies to me it shouldn't be seen as an out-of-left-field ask for a VA - clearly it's something they want, even if the union was unable to secure it.

Hard to tell what the truth is in a situation as messy as this but I'm inclined to believe Schreier's reporting as the more likely scenario but it's also true that VAs deserve more than they're getting IMO.

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colliding
10/18/22 6:09:56 PM
#152:


yeah at this point Schreier is about as trustworthy as you're going to get in terms of video game journalism. his specialty is pointing out unethical / toxic work environments, so for him to put out a piece somewhat counter to that is saying a lot.

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squexa
10/18/22 7:39:47 PM
#153:


The real discussion should be the rise of AI voice acting. There's recently been significant leaps in AI technology that could soon render most VAs obsolete:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oQx4SyM_iH4

It's obviously not perfect right now and it's quite limited in scope, but I can already see smaller studios using them. Give it another 10 or 20 years and the tech could be good enough to replace humans entirely. From a company's point of view, AI's cheaper, more flexible, permanent and the company doesn't have to worry about the software unionizing or breaking NDA to launch a twitter boycott of your product, so it's a no-brainer when the tech reaches a certain point.

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PrivateBiscuit1
10/18/22 7:43:10 PM
#154:


I remember Troy Baker shilling that AI Voice NFT and everyone collectively saying "You fucking idiot this is your job they're working to take away." And then he doubled down hard in a smug way, then walked it all back and denounced it.

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foolm0r0n
10/18/22 7:44:03 PM
#155:


agesboy posted...
https://twitter.com/jasonschreier/status/1582439093677723648

the plot thickens
This makes a lot more sense. The key thing is that Jason and Bloomberg aren't in the business of posting he-said-she-saids. They really felt the need to put this out.

I do hope people's conclusion isn't that $15k for voicing Bayo is perfectly ok, and same with other roles like the BOTW one for $1k. SAG-AFTRA seems to be pretty successful improving VA compensation though. Seems like that should be the venue for future collective bargaining, not twitter threads.

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Grimlyn
10/18/22 7:46:03 PM
#156:


i thought replica was that ai chatbot you can cyber but no that's replika with a k

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foolm0r0n
10/18/22 7:47:27 PM
#157:


squexa posted...
Give it another 10 or 20 years and the tech could be good enough to replace humans entirely.
It's closer to 2 years for speech generation like this. It's improving really fast.

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Colegreen_c12
10/18/22 8:53:49 PM
#158:


I'm all for ai voice acting if it means small indie studios like gamefreak can get voice acting in their games.

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Lopen
10/18/22 8:55:20 PM
#159:


I feel like ai will only be used for the minor VA parts (or to replicate iconic roles where you cant get the original VA like Darth Vader) and it's not a threat to the craft as a whole but who knows.

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Lopen
10/18/22 8:56:51 PM
#160:


Like having all your previously unvoiced minor NPCs voiced via AI to save time seems like the endgame for it not putting great VA like Jennifer Hale out of business

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Grimlyn
10/18/22 9:02:56 PM
#161:


just wait til ai voices are made into ai vtubers to develop fan followings and concrete ai v-actor personalities to stan

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PrivateBiscuit1
10/18/22 9:03:22 PM
#162:


Lopen posted...
I feel like ai will only be used for the minor VA parts (or to replicate iconic roles where you cant get the original VA like Darth Vader) and it's not a threat to the craft as a whole but who knows.
This is hilariously naive.

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KamikazePotato
10/18/22 9:04:03 PM
#163:


PrivateBiscuit1 posted...
This is hilariously naive.


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Lopen
10/18/22 9:07:38 PM
#164:


Eh I don't think so. Acting is the arts. For the same reason people still paint and we don't just have AI generated art everywhere. There is a certain thing that AI won't be able to replicate, or that purists won't want AI to replicate.

Also like VA aren't super highly paid-- it's not like its a cost cutting measure. Licensing the AI is probably gonna be pricey in its own right.

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skullbone
10/18/22 9:09:33 PM
#165:


Lopen posted...
we don't just have AI generated art everywhere

Uhhh I've got some bad news for you in about 3-5 years.

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Lopen
10/18/22 9:11:16 PM
#166:


I mean

Do you know people who are into art?

I feel like you don't if you think AI drawing just removes the demand for art

Half the reason there is appeal to it to a lot of people is because you're looking into the psyche of the artist

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tazzyboyishere
10/18/22 9:16:25 PM
#167:


Voice acting is a commodity before it is art in the eyes of producers. If it allows for cheaper and easier production and won't affect their bottom line, it'll be commonplace in a heartbeat

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Dels
10/18/22 9:19:46 PM
#168:


sure but there's a difference between "i am going to this museum to look at paintings made by real people and take them in as pieces of art" and "i'm consuming a game (or something else) that has a million art assets in it"

like i don't think an art collector will want to frame a piece of AI art in their own

but i do think someone might not care if, say, they play a visual novel on steam where all the location backgrounds were made by an AI.
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Lopen
10/18/22 9:19:55 PM
#169:


We'll see. I'm not convinced until it actually happens, no matter where the tech goes.

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Lopen
10/18/22 9:20:30 PM
#170:


Dels posted...
sure but there's a difference between "i am going to this museum to look at paintings made by real people and take them in as pieces of art" and "i'm consuming a game (or something else) that has a million art assets in it"

like i don't think an art collector will want to frame a piece of AI art in their own

but i do think someone might not care if, say, they play a visual novel on steam where all the location backgrounds were made by an AI.

Location backgrounds are minor NPCs in this analogy yes

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Dels
10/18/22 9:22:59 PM
#171:


i feel voicing NPCs and drawing background assets (and i'd argue backgrounds in a visual novel aren't even that minor, you might be looking at the same one for hours) is still a pretty big part of a voice actor/artist's career
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GranzonEx
10/18/22 9:23:14 PM
#172:


If you think AI voice acting will not replace human voice acting then you haven't been following the technology. In a decade or so maybe even sooner voice actors will still exist, but mostly as voice packs. Their voices will be recorded and registered to whichever company their union retains for their rights and will be licensed out to do voice work effortlessly.

Same thing will happen to traditional on screen actors once deepfakes are perfected. In the future both visual and audio parts of acting will be purely computer generated.

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Seginustemple
10/18/22 9:24:00 PM
#173:


Damn, she wanted six figures and residuals? How much dialogue do these games even have?

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Grimlyn
10/18/22 9:24:31 PM
#174:


"art world" stuff is such a minor fraction of the actual jobs artists take which is moreso on assets & commissions

speaking as someone who's used AI for both of the latter

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GranzonEx
10/18/22 9:25:39 PM
#175:


We'll get that David ""Punished "Venom" Snake"" Hayter voice pack we've all been waiting for.

"Kept you waiting huh?"

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neonreaper
10/18/22 9:26:21 PM
#176:


I saw this video a few weeks ago

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=W4Mcuh38wyM

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foolm0r0n
10/18/22 9:28:06 PM
#177:


Lopen posted...
Like having all your previously unvoiced minor NPCs voiced via AI to save time seems like the endgame for it not putting great VA like Jennifer Hale out of business
The most prolific actors like Hale will get replaced first, since the learning corpus is so big. You'll be able to scrape all her voices and train your own AI in a handful of days. Since the model is opaque, there's no way to prove you stole her voice acting to make the model. Even if you could, the copyright laws haven't been established for AI training anyway.

So basically only the little unknown VAs will be able to have a job.

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UshiromiyaEva
10/18/22 9:28:32 PM
#178:


Lopen posted...
For the same reason people still paint and we don't just have AI generated art everywhere.

Pixiv is practically unbrowseable right now because like 50% of the uploads over the last few weeks are AI garbage.

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foolm0r0n
10/18/22 9:29:27 PM
#179:


Dels posted...
like i don't think an art collector will want to frame a piece of AI art in their own
Did you miss NFTs? A ton of them were AI generated, and pretty much all were semi-generated. Like yeah they were all worthless, but dumb people did spend a lot of money to collect them.

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Lopen
10/18/22 9:36:10 PM
#180:


Prolific VA people will want the genuine article if they can afford it.

It's about prestige. In terms of dev costs that's a drop in the bucket. It's also not really taking a lot of development time because it can be done in parallel with the programming.

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KamikazePotato
10/18/22 9:38:03 PM
#181:


VAs and artists will still exist, but their job opportunities will shrink considerably and AI will dominate 90% of the market.

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Xiahou_Shake
10/18/22 9:46:22 PM
#182:


GranzonEx posted...
In the future both visual and audio parts of acting will be purely computer generated.
I'm not saying this isn't going to happen on at least some level because capitalism, but this is a wildly dystopian notion that would completely eliminate multiple fields of art.

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Grimlyn
10/18/22 10:03:31 PM
#183:


neonreaper posted...
I saw this video a few weeks ago

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=W4Mcuh38wyM
watching now and yeah it really is fascinating to consider a lot of these examples pulled are such really good quality that really would take a number of hours to commission an artist for... and just being able to click a button to generate, and if unsatisfied just re-run it is just simply wild stuff

right now at 13:20 "look AI can't draw hands okay" lmao literally said the same thing dillos topic this afternoon (warning if you're gonna check: anime girl examples)

but like even the flawed work can easily be insanely helpful for rough story-boarding and pre-vis - and honestly many examples are still coming out flawless, perfectly fit for direct use

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KamikazePotato
10/18/22 10:05:50 PM
#184:


Xiahou_Shake posted...
I'm not saying this isn't going to happen on at least some level because capitalism, but this is a wildly dystopian notion that would completely eliminate multiple fields of art.
Yeah

So?

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Thorn
10/18/22 10:07:46 PM
#185:


Grimlyn posted...
"look AI can't draw hands okay"
Relatable.

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Lopen
10/18/22 10:15:13 PM
#186:


I realize the irony of me of all people saying this but cynicism isn't always the way to be smarter about a topic. Time will tell but I think there is a lot to artist interpretation and what it adds that an AI isn't really going to ever be able to replicate to a passable level.

Again for stuff that isn't front and center that'll be fine, but for your star roles you're not just gonna have an AI do it. Like does a Jennifer Hale AI voicing Bayonetta actually sound like what you'd expect Bayonetta to sound like, or does it sound like Jennifer Hale voicing Samus with different dialogue swapped in. Artist interpretation is so important for memorable characters.

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AriaOfBolo
10/18/22 10:27:26 PM
#187:


Lopen posted...
Do you know people who are into art?

yes, they're freaking out about AI

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KingButz
10/18/22 10:40:42 PM
#188:


GranzonEx posted...
Same thing will happen to traditional on screen actors once deepfakes are perfected. In the future both visual and audio parts of acting will be purely computer generated.

This is the most ridiculous thing I've ever heard today. Maybe for some movies, but there will always be films with real actors because some people are still going to want that.

I could see them doing it for like, extras and stuff, sure. Let AI draw the trees in my video game or voice background characters. That's like the perfect use case for it.

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foolm0r0n
10/18/22 11:03:03 PM
#189:


Lopen posted...
Prolific VA people will want the genuine article if they can afford it.

It's about prestige. In terms of dev costs that's a drop in the bucket. It's also not really taking a lot of development time because it can be done in parallel with the programming.
That's a simple marketing problem. They can & will make people want the generated stuff.

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foolm0r0n
10/18/22 11:05:09 PM
#190:


Lopen posted...
Like does a Jennifer Hale AI voicing Bayonetta actually sound like what you'd expect Bayonetta to sound like, or does it sound like Jennifer Hale voicing Samus with different dialogue swapped in. Artist interpretation is so important for memorable characters.
Style transfer is one of the strongest fields in AI art right now. You could totally do "Jennifer Hale in the style of Bayonetta". But in this case you would just generate more of Hellena's Bayonetta directly if there's enough source.

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Lopen
10/18/22 11:19:37 PM
#191:


foolm0r0n posted...
But in this case you would just generate more of Hellena's Bayonetta directly

I don't think you're getting it.

I don't want Hellena's Bayonetta. I want what Jennifer Hale thinks Bayonetta should sound like which is different than Jennifer Hale trying to impersonate Hellena Taylor.

Like imagine if we had an AI generate Heath Ledger's Joker from Jack Nicholson Joker that'd be a disaster.

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squexa
10/18/22 11:21:25 PM
#192:


Lopen posted...
Eh I don't think so. Acting is the arts. For the same reason people still paint and we don't just have AI generated art everywhere. There is a certain thing that AI won't be able to replicate, or that purists won't want AI to replicate.

Also like VA aren't super highly paid-- it's not like its a cost cutting measure. Licensing the AI is probably gonna be pricey in its own right.

AI will cost money for licensing but it'll still be much cheaper than hiring VAs across many languages. Combined with advances in translation AI, we'll soon see games available in like 50+ languages, all fully dubbed. Only very few languages today justify the costs.

The other major benefit is that AI voice acting is much more flexible. To start with, you can dub procedurally generated text, which is impossible right now with human VAs. Something as simple as a user inputted name would be a problem with human VAs and companies right now have employed all sorts of ways to try to cover it up. With procedural text generation AI getting better and better, it's inevitable that AAA games will start heavily employing them and they'd have to use AI VAs.

I'm sure there will be some purists initially outraged by AAA games having AI VA, but people will get over it quickly if the AI quality is high enough and there will probably always be games featuring real VAs.

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foolm0r0n
10/18/22 11:24:43 PM
#193:


Lopen posted...
I don't want Hellena's Bayonetta. I want what Jennifer Hale thinks Bayonetta should sound like which is different than Jennifer Hale trying to impersonate Hellena Taylor.
You're an old man, your preference doesn't matter, neither does mine. It's like our parents saying "I just prefer the warmth of vinyl". But I guess vinyls are back in style now, so maybe in 30-40 years our preference for original art will come back in style too.

But also, Bayonetta fans want Hellena's Bayonetta. No one actually wants Jennifer Hale's Bayonetta. That's clearly the compromised option.

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Dels
10/18/22 11:25:25 PM
#194:


i was definitely thinking about that as i've been playing hades recently, every time you finish a run the narrator has one random voiced line of dialogue saying "and so then X happened and the run came to an end", and after like 80 runs he says "and now i've run out of things so i'm going to start repeating them", i was thinking like, man, if they could do procedurally generated text with AI voice acting they could actually have a different line for every single completed run here!

a roguelike would be the perfect genre for this since the appeal is that every run is different. people would accept AI voice/lines there more than they would in, like, a visual novel.
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foolm0r0n
10/18/22 11:30:46 PM
#195:


squexa posted...
To start with, you can dub procedurally generated text, which is impossible right now with human VAs.
AI generation isn't really there right now either. You would need to bundle the whole model and the generator program into the game, which can be many GBs and take seconds/minutes to execute using the full GPU. That's just a matter of time, to get small enough models that are good enough for dynamic lines. But you will always get way better results from a larger and slower model, so you would still use pre-generated lines as much as you can.

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Grimlyn
10/18/22 11:30:58 PM
#196:


if AI gets normalized the AI Actors also won't come back to bite them in the ass with calls to boycott

or like turn out to be ai sex pests

or die

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Lopen
10/18/22 11:33:09 PM
#197:


I am at least interested in Hale's Bayonetta and don't think it's something an AI can accurately approximate because we don't know what that actually means. Because we've never seen it. Would the voice be close to one of Hale's existing performances? Maybe? But how does the AI choose which one. Is it going to be Jennifer Hale doing knock off Hellena Taylor? Probably not.

Like you can absolutely use an AI to replicate an existing performance for different dialogue. It's a solution to a VA walking out of an established franchise, but the initial interpretation of a memorable character is entirely up to the VA and not something you can make an AI do in a satisfying way.

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Kenri
10/18/22 11:36:50 PM
#198:


i feel like ai sex pests are absolutely in our (not even too distant) future actually

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GranzonEx
10/18/22 11:40:12 PM
#199:


Lopen posted...
I am at least interested in Hale's Bayonetta and don't think it's something an AI can accurately approximate because we don't know what that actually means. Because we've never seen it. Would the voice be close to one of Hale's existing performances? Maybe? But how does the AI choose which one. Is it going to be Jennifer Hale doing knock off Hellena Taylor? Probably not.

Like you can absolutely use an AI to replicate an existing performance for different dialogue. It's a solution to a VA walking out of an established franchise, but the initial interpretation of a memorable character is entirely up to the VA and not something you can make an AI do in a satisfying way.
You're getting hung up on the direction/performance of the voice from a real person when nobody said the AI VA will not have sound directors giving instuctions on their "performance". The "performance" is artificial but the "creativity" will still be human. Once the AI VA has essentially perfectly emulated Hale's voice it can in theory perform any character the director of the game/movie desires. And her voice can then be used in 500 games a year, without the need of her physically recording lines, and can even be used 500 years in the future at the discretion of her estate.

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Grimlyn
10/18/22 11:44:53 PM
#200:


consensual ai sex pests at least

...

don't make the mistake of inserting that ai into a physical robo body tho

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