Poll of the Day > If you like roguelikes/lites you should watch this cool Greek Youtuber, Sidf.

(+) Yeah! (+)

He has a sexy....I mean cool accent. He has a great personality, is blunt, and just loves games. Hes informative about whatever game hes playing so he is a great way to get into new games.

He doesn't have many subs but he is definitely deserving of a bigger following. I would hate for him to slip into obscurity since he wants to play different games but his channel got a decent following from his INSCRYPTION videos.

Sidf:
https://www.youtube.com/c/SifdGaming/videos

Where's the roguelike stuff, there's no ASCII gameplay.

I know this one YouTubers who plays lots of roguelikes/lites, and is like a genius

LinkPizza posted...

I know this one YouTubers who plays lots of roguelikes/lites, and is like a genius

@LinkPizza
Channel?

shadowsword87 posted...

Where's the roguelike stuff, there's no ASCII gameplay.

Roguelike as a genre has evolved way past that XD
But I guess theres still games like Caves of Qud for you.
Honestly the ASCll might be what keeps me from getting into that game.

dioxxys posted...

Channel?

I have to ask my buddy for the channel

shadowsword87 posted...

Where's the roguelike stuff, there's no ASCII gameplay.

This is what I hate about roguelike fandom. A large portion adamantly look down on anything that's not, basically, EXACTLY like Rogue, down to the ASCII.

I checked out the r/roguelikes subreddit, and very quickly noped out in favor of r/roguelites.

keyblader1985 posted...

This is what I hate about roguelike fandom. A large portion adamantly look down on anything that's not, basically, EXACTLY like Rogue, down to the ASCII.
I checked out the r/roguelikes subreddit, and very quickly noped out in favor of r/roguelites.

Because they're fundamentally a different genre, tile gameplay with complex systems. People have taken a genre that's existed since the dawn of the computer, that hasn't changed in 30 years, said "ew, I want good graphics and conveniences like saves and progression" and fucked with it.

It's a horribly niche and awful genre that a bunch of people rolled up in, demanded changes, and complained about the old guard because they liked the old ways.

It's a hard genre, damn hard. It rewards taking your time, learning the system, learning how to handle certain situations, complexity and creativeness. You can use and abuse systems no problem. You can dip a sword into a potion to see if it's a fire potion, discover that it, is, a fire potion, have a flaming sword and also a firebomb. You can worship gods and gain their favor by wearing certain kinds of hats. It's a genre that's built on knowledge and experience.

Then you have FTL where there's a few meta builds that you can roll through the game 80% of the time, action packed, and no complexity built in. But, it redefined a genre to something fundamentally different because nobody had a frame of reference.

shadowsword87 posted...

Because they're fundamentally a different genre, tile gameplay with complex systems. People have taken a genre that's existed since the dawn of the computer, that hasn't changed in 30 years, said "ew, I want good graphics and conveniences like saves and progression" and fucked with it.

Sounds like a rogue purist wouldnt be happy unless it was almost the exact same game, and then whats the point? Like you said, it hasnt changed in 30 years.

Also lmao at "good graphics" most AAA sheep would scoff at the idea of modern roguelikes/lites having "good graphics" since none of them except Returnal have aaa graphics.

shadowsword87 posted...

It's a hard genre, damn hard. It rewards taking your time, learning the system, learning how to handle certain situations, complexity and creativeness.

Sounds like you described most modern roguelikes

dioxxys posted...

Sounds like a rogue purist wouldnt be happy unless it was almost the exact same game, and then whats the point? Like you said, it hasnt changed in 30 years.

There are plenty of roguelike games, ADOM, NetHack, Dungeon Crawl Stone Soup, Tales of Maj'Eyal, and those are just the major ones. There's plenty of stuff with a lot of complexity, I really like POWDER and Brogue, even if they're more simple of a game.
The genre is the same, each game is unique.

dioxxys posted...

Also lmao at "good graphics" most AAA sheep would scoff at the idea of modern roguelikes/lites having "good graphics" since none of them except Returnal have aaa graphics.

I was speaking in what's known as "hyperbole" because I was making a joke that graphically, roguelikes are crap. But, gameplay triumphs over graphics.

dioxxys posted...

Sounds like you described most modern roguelikes

I wish you the best if you think you can learn, and beat, an oldschool roguelike in the amount of time it takes to learn, and beat, a modern roguelite.

dioxxys posted...

roguelikes/lites having "good graphics" since none of them except Returnal have aaa graphics.

uh...hades

Hades doesn't have AAA graphics. It looks fantastic, but that's entirely a matter of good art direction, not graphical fidelity.

shadowsword87 posted...

Because they're fundamentally a different genre, tile gameplay with complex systems. People have taken a genre that's existed since the dawn of the computer, that hasn't changed in 30 years, said "ew, I want good graphics and conveniences like saves and progression" and fucked with it.

Genres evolve over time. Every genre of video game or story evolves from what it used to be. The only reason roguelikes would be an exception to that rule, and that the term roguelite exists, is because purists refuse to compromise.

It doesn't matter how much a game has in common with the genre; if it has a few noticeable differences then it's deemed not a roguelike, and very often looked down on. That doesn't happen with other genres, or at least not nearly to the same extent. Not even with "Metroidvanias" or the argument over what is or isn't a fighting game (like Smash).

adjl posted...

Hades doesn't have AAA graphics. It looks fantastic, but that's entirely a matter of good art direction, not graphical fidelity.

i would say it's AAA graphics

if not, then what exactly constitutes AAA graphics? if hades isn't considered AAA then i could make a real good argument that windwaker isn't AAA graphics either

Adam_Savage posted...

i would say it's AAA graphics

if not, then what exactly constitutes AAA graphics? if hades isn't considered AAA then i could make a real good argument that windwaker isn't AAA graphics either

If Hades was made in 2002 it would be AAA

Adam_Savage posted...

i would say it's AAA graphics

if not, then what exactly constitutes AAA graphics? if hades isn't considered AAA then i could make a real good argument that windwaker isn't AAA graphics either

I was thinking full 3D Graphics and/or games that make use of all modern graphical techniques such as Antialising, texture filtering, dynamic shadows, godrays, particle effects, bloom, etc. Maybe a game like Wind Waker doesnt meet todays standards but back then it was still a AAA title for back in the gamecube era.

using that criteria, most games considered AAA don't have AAA graphics then

AAA isn't quality, it's budget.

keyblader1985 posted...

Genres evolve over time. Every genre of video game or story evolves from what it used to be. The only reason roguelikes would be an exception to that rule, and that the term roguelite exists, is because purists refuse to compromise.

it's because the term roguelike means games that are very like rogue; they branch into other genres if they stray too far away. roguelikes are fundamentally centered on the exact gameplay experience of rogue

If you want the exact gameplay experience of Rogue, play Rogue. No other game is gonna be exactly the same.

I say NetHack is probably the epitome of roguelike

shadowsword87 posted...

Because they're fundamentally a different genre, tile gameplay with complex systems. People have taken a genre that's existed since the dawn of the computer, that hasn't changed in 30 years, said "ew, I want good graphics and conveniences like saves and progression" and fucked with it.

It's a horribly niche and awful genre that a bunch of people rolled up in, demanded changes, and complained about the old guard because they liked the old ways.

It's a hard genre, damn hard. It rewards taking your time, learning the system, learning how to handle certain situations, complexity and creativeness. You can use and abuse systems no problem. You can dip a sword into a potion to see if it's a fire potion, discover that it, is, a fire potion, have a flaming sword and also a firebomb. You can worship gods and gain their favor by wearing certain kinds of hats. It's a genre that's built on knowledge and experience.

Then you have FTL where there's a few meta builds that you can roll through the game 80% of the time, action packed, and no complexity built in. But, it redefined a genre to something fundamentally different because nobody had a frame of reference.

If you want a game like that, give cogmind a shot. It's made to be turn based, meant to be difficult and has tons of builds that you have to adapt to on the fly. It also uses ascii art for the weapons that looks phenomenal. It has an actual story line you can build up over multiple runs, and even like 9 different endings or something too. It's a pretty intense game. I'm sure it'd scratch your roguelike itch.

https://store.steampowered.com/app/722730/Cogmind/

The game is honestly still being updated too but it's already complete, the guy is just adding some extras.

Ahh yes, and the game has some adaptability to how YOU play as well too. I forgot to mention that. That adds to the difficulty as well.

Ya, I play a lot of cogmind... according to steam I have 170 hours on it

And you guys are pretty harsh, I've played a lot of roguelikes and the way it has been used to describe experiences of primarily perma death and procedurally generated dungeons is awful. If people want to do that, go use the term rougelite. A roguelike in my opinion has a set of definitions that are almost universal among these titles.

Nethack, TOME (Tales of Maj'Eyal), Brogue, DCSS (Dungeon Crawl Stone Soup), Cogmind, CDDA (Cataclysm Dark Days Ahead [Another game I'd recommend @shadowsword87 A "zombie" apocalypse roguelike).

These are all turn based games, that have permanent death, are all on a grid, very complex, are about exploring and killing tons of monsters and have procedural generation so no game is like before and no game can be done the same way or with some sort of meta build to stomp the game.

http://www.roguebasin.com/index.php?title=Berlin_Interpretation

Oddly enough, the berlin interpretation, made from a conference ABOUT roguelikes where a bunch of people who love those games came to discuss what is a roguelike exactly. They understand that roguelike as a definition changes over time, but determined to solidify what it meant. I think it's a pretty accurate definition and encompasses a type of game I enjoy and like.

Do notice that looking like ASCII isn't highly valued, and tbh that's fine with me, I always played the games with tiles, ASCII was just a way these games were made in the past and it's ok for that to go away.

I honestly think Cogmind is a big step in evolution of roguelike (I mean I only played about 400 hours of that game) and has tons of improvements that make it seem to be superior to most other roguelikes in my eyes. But again that's just my own opinion.

What DOES get old is when people go around saying Hades is a roguelike or dead cells, or slay the spire, or binding of isaac are all roguelike games. They aren't. They don't HAVE to be. People just decided to call them roguelikes apparently because they're dumb and think anything with perma death and randomized elements make a game roguelike. They fail to see that to be a rogue like you have to be LIKE rogue. And rogue was a game that was again, turn based, complex, and played on a grid. IMO the playing on a grid part is almost mandatory along with being turn based and well obviously complex, if it's simple it's difficult to make a game where you want to die a lot and learn you know? It's ok to call it rogue lite in that case or hell just get away from the name rogue if you aren't going to be like it. Just call it permadyingrandomdungeongenerator because that's what the name roguelike seems to be used by people who don't TRULY understand what it means. It gets irritating when people who have never even played games that are on a grid or turn based but have played something like hades or dead cells say they know what a rogue like is when they haven't even played games ACTUALLY like rogue. That's the odd part. I'm sure they mean rogueLITE or "permadyingrandomdungeongenerator."

I get the frustration that @shadowsword87 has honestly when people make this discussion because an actual roguelike is quite distinct. But unfortunately it does seem to be going the same way RPG as a definition went. RPG definition used to mean JRPG in general but then so many "RPGs" came out that JRPG had to be its own category separate from WRPG and Action RPGs and so forth. I think people just need to realize that the same is currently and actively happening to the term roguelike. It's just the people who actually know what a roguelike is similar to those people who played TONS of JRPGs in the past are getting drowned out by modern day people who think they know what an RPG is.

Ahh yes and finally ANOTHER recommendation for @shadowsword87 for roguelikes is Rift Wizard. It's actually a short and sweet roguelike, you play as a wizard who has to fight through 25 floors. You have access to all your spells, but you have to buy them with skill points. Probably a super simple roguelike, but the complexity comes from spell interactions and enemy types that have resistances to spells.
And also don't forget about CDDA.

If you've played any of the three I mentioned (Cogmind, CDDA, or Rift Wizard), tell me, I'd like to hear some recommendations, I've played a ton of roguelikes and I'm curious to see some newer ones. Not sure if you're a part of the roguelike discord server, but there's always more recommendations there and they do separate roguelikes from roguelites there too funnily enough.

Lokarin posted...

Ya, I play a lot of cogmind... according to steam I have 170 hours on it

Did you ever win? Getting that first win and doing it a second time is what finally sets you free to find the other neat stuff throughout the game.

badjay posted...

Did you ever win? Getting that first win and doing it a second time is what finally sets you free to find the other neat stuff throughout the game.

I have not won, and I actually don't know the victory condition... but I only made it to the final boss a few times.

I think there are alternate win conditions as well, it's been a while... but ya - it's a GREAT game

Lokarin posted...

I have not won, and I actually don't know the victory condition... but I only made it to the final boss a few times.

I think there are alternate win conditions as well, it's been a while... but ya - it's a GREAT game

There are alternate ways to win. If you want some hints for the final boss I can offer you one.

badjay posted...

There are alternate ways to win. If you want some hints for the final boss I can offer you one.

It's been a while since I last played it, if I was actively playing I'd be ok with some hints but out of context it wouldn't help me any

Anyone playing battle bands? I will kick all yalls asses

badjay posted...

It gets irritating when people who have never even played games that are on a grid or turn based but have played something like hades or dead cells say they know what a rogue like is when they haven't even played games ACTUALLY like rogue. That's the odd part. I'm sure they mean rogueLITE or "permadyingrandomdungeongenerator."

yeah this is my entire view on this

and for the record, i absolutely do not like roguelikes (i sort of like roguelites but only when there's guaranteed progression because i suck at games). i just don't see why the term needs to be overtaken by people that would never touch the original rogue (or games that the original fans like for the same reasons) with a ten foot pole. as i said before, the genre is very narrow in what fans want in certain aspects

badjay posted...

These are all turn based games, that have permanent death, are all on a grid, very complex, are about exploring and killing tons of monsters and have procedural generation so no game is like before and no game can be done the same way or with some sort of meta build to stomp the game.

That's another thing; I can list several games that fit all those descriptions, that several people adamantly insist are not roguelikes. It seems like even the so called purists can't agree on a solid set of criteria. So why shouldn't a game that checks *most* of those boxes be thrown in with the rest?

keyblader1985 posted...

That's another thing; I can list several games that fit all those descriptions, that several people adamantly insist are not roguelikes. It seems like even the so called purists can't agree on a solid set of criteria. So why shouldn't a game that checks *most* of those boxes be thrown in with the rest?

Well why don't you list them? The only I can think of that isn't considered a roguelike by the discord is Crypt of the Necrodancer. I think it's because you don't have infinite time to think on your "turn" which is on the beat movement. But I would concede that it's also a roguelike in my eyes. It is turn based gameplay in my eyes even if those turns are as fast as a beat.

rpg definitely never meant jrpg lmao

Adam_Savage posted...

rpg definitely never meant jrpg lmao

You're right I was trying to find a similar parallel, but it'd be nice to expand upon that. I remember being younger and hearing RPGs and wondering what exactly it meant and interpreting it. To me back in the era SNES games it usually meant the traditional JRPG treatment. To others, playing Zelda was an RPG. To others, they could talk about DND being an RPG. The definition of a genre waters down at some point the more people get into it and expand upon it and it's best to just section off and be precise in what you think a certain word means. That was the point I was trying to make. It's probably better to create a new term that means what you actually want it to mean.

Thinking more on it, Soulslike is a good one. If everything difficult is a soulslike then what is TRULY soulslike? This is the kind of thing that's plaguing genres right now.

a soulslike is a souls-like game made by a different developer than fromsoft

if it's from fromsoft, it's just a souls

....is dragon's dogma a soulslike

theres obviously some inspiration there but i dont think i can classify it as one

badjay posted...

Well why don't you list them?

Mainly Mystery Dungeon games like Shiren, some others like Adventure Bar Labyrinth/Labyrinth Story, and some others. I've seen people say they're only roguelites, despite that for most of them the "lite" aspect is only for the fairly short main campaign, and once that's complete you unlock countless other traditional "start from zero, permadeath" dungeons that are bigger and much harder.

keyblader1985 posted...

Mainly Mystery Dungeon games like Shiren, some others like Adventure Bar Labyrinth/Labyrinth Story, and some others. I've seen people say they're only roguelites, despite that for most of them the "lite" aspect is only for the fairly short main campaign, and once that's complete you unlock countless other traditional "start from zero, permadeath" dungeons that are bigger and much harder.

Ironically, while I love roguelikes - I don't like the Mystery Dungeon clones like Shiren and Izuna

Lokarin posted...

If Hades was made in 2002 it would be AAA

Nah, publishers were still in their "eww, it's 2D? What is this, 1991?" phase back then.

agesboy posted...

is dragon's dogma a soulslike

Nah. Basically Monster Hunter applied to a more traditional WRPG style game.

Shiren is not a clone; it was the first original IP under the Mystery Dungeon label. Before that the series only used existing franchises like Dragon Quest (and later it became synonymous with Pokemon Mystery Dungeon).

Izuna was the first game of the genre that I played, and I fell in love with the gameplay style.

I've been following Sifd since he had like 2k subscribers. In fact, I've tried tons of indie games thanks to his recommendations and playthroughs.

Don't care much about his accent though.

HagenEx posted...

I've been following Sifd since he had like 2k subscribers. In fact, I've tried tons of indie games thanks to his recommendations and playthroughs.

Don't care much about his accent though.

But Sidf!

I hope he takes off, I dont want his channel to die, I hope I lead at least a few people to his channel.

GanonsSpirit posted...

AAA isn't quality, it's budget.

This. 99% of AAA graphics look like ass.

badjay posted...

You're right I was trying to find a similar parallel, but it'd be nice to expand upon that. I remember being younger and hearing RPGs and wondering what exactly it meant and interpreting it.

Back in the day there were RPGs and CRPGs (Console RPGs).
RPGs were games like Baldur's Gate.
CRPGs were what we call JRPGs now.

DocDelicious posted...

Back in the day there were RPGs and CRPGs (Console RPGs).
RPGs were games like Baldur's Gate.
CRPGs were what we call JRPGs now.

Wat.

Revelation34 posted...

Wat.

JRPGs used to be referred to as Console RPGs or CRPGs.

The earliest role-playing video game on a console was Dragonstomper on the Atari 2600 in 1982.[1] Bokosuka Wars, originally released for the Sharp X1 computer in 1983,[2] was ported to the NES console in 1985, and was a commercial success in Japan, where it laid the foundations for the tactical role-playing game subgenre.[3] Other notable early console RPGs included ports of Namco's 1984 arcade action role-playing games: The Tower of Druaga,[4] which was ported to the NES in 1985,[5] and Dragon Buster,[6] the first video game to feature a life meter (called "Vitality" in-game),[7] also ported to the NES in 1987.[8]

https://gamicus.fandom.com/wiki/Console_role-playing_game

badjay posted...

If you've played any of the three I mentioned (Cogmind, CDDA, or Rift Wizard), tell me, I'd like to hear some recommendations, I've played a ton of roguelikes and I'm curious to see some newer ones. Not sure if you're a part of the roguelike discord server, but there's always more recommendations there and they do separate roguelikes from roguelites there too funnily enough.

I'm going to be completely honest: I have fallen out of roguelike games for a few years now and haven't picked up anything in the past... half decade or so?
When I did, I mostly played a lot of the more simple roguelikes, like doomRL. I mostly did a lot of learning of the history and more or less cheating my way through the games when I could.

If you send me a link to the discord I'll check it out though.

I can see the qualm old fans of Rogue have as I'd be livid also if they started calling games Souls-like but were nothing like Dark Souls.

Though the way things have been going, rogue likes are no longer being defined as grid based turn-based rpg games. The only big differentiation I've seen is that people will label games Roguelites is if by playing the game, you can gain new powers after continuous play (ex: Hades, Rogue Legacy). It becomes harder to define which of these are defined by unlocks, as unlocks don't actually make you more powerful but expand your range of choice.

It's the way things are going, yes, but that doesn't mean it's still not frustrating.

agesboy posted...

....is dragon's dogma a soulslike

theres obviously some inspiration there but i dont think i can classify it as one

I'd think of it as a game that has difficult combat and is oriented around boss fights that block your progression in general. Primarily about traversing through exploration to find such means so it isn't linear. When you die you go back to a check point and lose your current level's experience (usually souls/runes/blood whatever).

Oddly enough Hollow Knight CAN fit this description. I don't play TOO many souls games, I've played Demon Souls and Dark Souls and kind of stopped after that. Looking forward to get back into Elden Ring however.

But I can promise you that soulslike IS a word that is starting to get thrown around lightly that it has become a satire to call any difficult game a soulslike.

keyblader1985 posted...

Mainly Mystery Dungeon games like Shiren, some others like Adventure Bar Labyrinth/Labyrinth Story, and some others. I've seen people say they're only roguelites, despite that for most of them the "lite" aspect is only for the fairly short main campaign, and once that's complete you unlock countless other traditional "start from zero, permadeath" dungeons that are bigger and much harder.

Honestly, this is a tough one for me. I'm quite limited in my playtime of games like Mystery Dungeon. But looking it up, it's possible it could be classified as such.
http://roguebasin.com/?title=Pokemon_Mystery_Dungeon
It even has an entry here, so SOMEBODY thought about it and put thought into considering it. I would say no, because I've thought some were easy, or they don't have much diversity in options. If it were to be a roguelike it'd be a rather simple one. Not to be insulting or anything. Rift Wizard is a "simple" roguelike to me and that's just 25 floors of fighting enemies.

shadowsword87 posted...

If you send me a link to the discord I'll check it out though.

https://discord.gg/9pmFGKx

dioxxys posted...

I can see the qualm old fans of Rogue have as I'd be livid also if they started calling games Souls-like but were nothing like Dark Souls.

Though the way things have been going, rogue likes are no longer being defined as grid based turn-based rpg games. The only big differentiation I've seen is that people will label games Roguelites is if by playing the game, you can gain new powers after continuous play (ex: Hades, Rogue Legacy). It becomes harder to define which of these are defined by unlocks, as unlocks don't actually make you more powerful but expand your range of choice.

They aren't but it's starting to be noted that the definition is being essentially watered down. IIt became ESPECIALLY apparent in the 2010s when I was going to pax east and seeing plenty of indie games being defined as roguelikes solely because they had ONLY procedurally generated dungeons, none of this permanent death stuff. The realization I came to is that procedural generation in your game is just a lazy way out of not creating actual levels for your games. Of course, if you're an indie game not having to worry about level design by designing a random level ai well so you don't have to worry about it is fine especially with the budgets indies have. It was just something I noticed a lot during those times when I was super excited to play "roguelikes." I started playing nethack and expecting to find more nethack, not what I had found in those years. Granted I did find Crypt of the Necrodancer which I have...200 hours in.

Ahh yes if anyone has a roguelite they feel like playing, bullets per minute is a wonderful game to play. It's a FPS that counts to the beat of the music, how you shoot, how you dash, how you reload is based off of the beat of the song. Enemies also move and shoot to the beat and enemy projectiles fly at the speed of the beat.

https://store.steampowered.com/app/1286350/BPM_BULLETS_PER_MINUTE/

I put in about 40 hours or so.