Board 8 > Do you objectively consider Ocarina of Time to be the best game ever made?

(+) Yeah! (+)

I've been spending a lot of time recently reading through this Wikipedia article: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_films_considered_the_best

And just looking through film history with this as my guide, and learning a lot about films that I've never heard of. And tonight I started thinking about gaming history, and I feel like the consensus here is that the closest thing to our Citizen Kane would have to be Ocarina of Time.

But at the medium of gaming has developed a lot more since OoT then filmmaking has in it's entire history, in my opinion (though I'm sure there's a good debate that could be had there too). If you consider the technical advancements of gaming, especially 3D gaming since OoTs release I have to wonder if it will always remain as revered to future audiences as it is to those that were able to appreciate it when it was new. It seems like modern film critics have no problems judging Citizen Kane against a modern film, but I find it hard to believe that gaming will turn out the same way.

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Not even close. It is a very good game but it isn't even the best game in its own series.

If we're talking objectively it's probably something like Tetris.

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No, I don't even think it was the best game when it was released.
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I don't even consider it a good game to begin with. I think that a lot of its release-period praise was based on mechanical advancements within its own series that simply came as a result of 2D->3D transition, which led to an overinflated and overhyped reputation. And in modern times that reputation is self-fulfilling, where people playing it for the first time go into it knowing that it's considered the best and then call it the best because they think that they're "supposed to".

Judging the game in a vacuum personally I find it flawed in many ways.

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Should've done this with botw

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No, IMO every mainline Zelda since has been better

I think trying to pick an objective best game is foolish though because there's too many subjective variables

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I'm not sure if it was ever my favourite Zelda. Hard to recall my feelings as a 6 year-old, but as far as I can tell I had stronger feelings for LttP.

Majora's Mask afterwards definitely left a more significant mark on me though.

MZero posted...

I think trying to pick an objective best game is foolish though because there's too many subjective variables

this though yeah

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KingButz posted...

No, I don't even think it was the best game when it was released.

Yes

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It was immediately surpassed by majora's mask so no

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I think it was for a while. But honestly, it's hard to say considering how many amazing games have come out after its release.

Ocarina of Time was either my #1 for a while or within my Top 10. But considering the release of God of War 4, Persona 5 Royal, Final Fantasy VII Remake, Super Mario Galaxy, and various Smash Bros. titles (to include Melee which easily can go even with Ocarina in terms of quality), it's hard to really call it "best game ever" the way I could when the pool of legendary games was far smaller nearly 20 years ago.

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I voted no on the basis that best ever is a very high bar to reach. I think if you do try to approach the question "objectively" OoT is probably up there, in the top 5 or 10. The primary criterion I would use to determine "objectively" which is the greatest game would be cultural and artistic impact on the medium, which is something you can measure with a certain degree of objectivity. Ocarina of Time is an extremely influential game that is also very well designed and artistically well-realized. Super Mario 64 is also in the conversation from this point of view, and the original Super Mario Bros. probably trumps both.

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'Objectively' is an impossible barometer to meet, but if I was forced to choose one, it probably goes to Minecraft

And I don't even like Minecraft very much

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I make a distinction between "Best" and "Flawless". Tetris is the closest thing we have to a flawless game. There have been variations of it, but the base version of the game has been something that has only been altered and not technically improved upon. Pac-Man, for example, is extremely good for a first title, but Ms. Pac Man is just a straight up upgrade in every way.

We get into problems too of impact and design. Super Mario Bros. 1 is a game that is very well designed but in terms of a game is overshadowed by SMB3 and World. But it can't be understated how important SMB1 was to gaming in combination with it being one of the greatest games of all time.

A factor that a lot of 2D games have over 3D titles is that a great deal of 2D titles still hold up quite well because of the limitations of the medium in terms of controls. Being on the N64 in a way holds OoT back because N64 controls largely suck. Take a game like Golden-eye. Very big in getting the console shooter to be popular. But it's ass to play right now. The thing is though, OoT is probably among the most playable N64 games if you would to go back to it right now. Even a really great game like Mario 64 is reasonably hard to play on original hardware. I'd say in terms of how the game plays in comparison to 3d games that came after it (even in its own series) OoT is much closer to say Halo (which is still the backbone of Console FPS games) to Golden Eye.

Which leads us into a matter of timing. Or I guess the Citizen Kane problem. As someone who studied the film I know that it was where many common film techniques really got used (or at least widely shown) to the world for the first time. As a cinematic piece when compared to what we have today it's watchable, but only someone who understands its value and history in that vacuum is going to rank it highly as a film.

Is Pokemon RBY the best mainline pokemon game in terms of like what's in the actual game? No, for as "little" innovation pokemon does each game has done something new and added various intricacies to the battle and world. It does get to a point where maybe enough is enough, but it's hard to say that things like GSC, DPP, XY, B/W are not just objectively better games from a gameplay standpoint. But should we really fault RBY for being the first game in this matter?

The truth is though Videogames as a medium is not really old enough to have a real Citizen Kane quite yet. Or maybe the difference in the medium and how poeple interact with it makes it so there never will be. People are still playing the original SMB1 and I'd say that really old games like Pac-Man, Missile Command, etc are closer to great short films that are not really judged in the same way as what we know as features.

Now as for the question. I do think it's the best game of all time. But I don't know about "objectively" as I'm not sure any game can hit that mark. If anything I think it can be put objectively on a "short" list of games. I use the term short loosely because you can probably argue for up to like 100 games or something based on certain metrics.

It's like saying would Babe Ruth really be the best player in baseball today? We can look at numbers and extrapolate based on his time he played and give him bonuses for modern technology, training ,etc... but since like no one has even really seen him play who is seriously studying the sport (and since he doesn't play today) it's impossible to tell. It's like the Bruce Lee issue. He's become more of a legend then a man and it's hard to tell where the line is drawn.

Also, Majora's Mask is a bad game. Just like purely from a world and level design standpoint every other 3D Zelda game has it beat. One of the reasons OoT has stood up so well is because its level and world design are reasonably strong (with the Overworld being fine and the dungeons being on average very good). While MM pretty much has the worst overworld and dungeon design in the series. And there is 0 way that this "caring about the NPCs" thing or whatever makes it better than the other titles in the series either. OoT, TP, and even Skyward Sword has had their big emotional moments and grand reveals that were simply much more important on the grand scale of things compared to what MM has done. Are you telling me you think the interactions you have with family A in MM is more meaningful in the game then what you have with Midna, Saria, Shiek, the uhh boat (honestly WW is the game I've played the least in the series) or even someone like Groose?

I don't know how you measure something like that but OOT is genuinely a top 3 game for me so I voted yes. The only two games I like more are Resident Evil 4 and Wind Waker.

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Above a certain level it's hard for me to rank things. It's sufficient to simply say it's great

The game has flaws, but it's still super fun as long as you're willing to look up a strategy guide if you get stuck

Enjoyment is so subjective, too

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No

Been done better since

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Axl_Rose_85 posted...

Not even close. It is a very good game but it isn't even the best game in its own series.

Not only have better games been released since, Link to the Past stands the test of time better due to the graphics not looking like crap by modern standards.

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No, that's stupid.

The best video game ever made is Outer Wilds

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HeroDelTiempo17 posted...

The best video game ever made is Outer Wilds

Yes

Smokes Ocarina imo

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I'm not sure that there is a "Citizen Kane of video games", if you mean a game that plays the same role, and whose popularity/reputation, played out in the same way as Kane did in the film industry/community. In terms of being the go to GOAT candidate, sure (although Vertigo has cut in on that a lot recently for film), however, I'm not sure there is a more direct corollary. OoT is more comparable to The Godfather, IMO, which was considered a GOAT candidate in both populist and critical circles from the very beginning.

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LOL no

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Never played a Zelda game so no.

Axl_Rose_85 posted...

Not even close. It is a very good game but it isn't even the best game in its own series.

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Its decent, but no.

Not until June 9th, 2009 I didn't.

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xp1337 posted...

Not until June 9th, 2009 I didn't.

And then it was dethroned December 15, 2015, I assume.

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Leonhart4 posted...

And then it was dethroned December 15, 2015, I assume.

fraudulent result

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Fair enough. I accept Mass Effect 3 in its place.

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hardly. shepard brought further shame upon the galaxy for losing that fight.

i'm pretty sure that's the canonical reason refuse was added to the game - as an exploration of how mentally broken shepard was a consequence of having failed us not once, but twice.

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The ending of that match was worse than the original ME3 ending.

But I accept the legitimacy of the X-Stats for games that were not rallied.

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I'm going to throw my hat in for Doom

• Influenced an entire genre that is still arguably the most popular to this day
• Crafted the template for huge set-piece moments with monster infighting
• Helped spread and popularize online multiplayer
• Its shareware model giving more people the chance to play initially is like proto-early access
• Revolutionary graphics engine that has influenced game development for decades
• Still easily accessible and widely distributed (especially notable for trying to be ported to literally every electronic out there)

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for the record I've never seen Citizen Kane and literally the only thing I know about it is the spoiler through references.

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Mario 1 is the Citizen Kane of video games because everyone knows the princess is in another castle.

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HeroDelTiempo17 posted...

No, that's stupid.

The best video game ever made is Outer Wilds

I think this is correct

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Thinking some more, I think objective the best game ever has to be a game that was fundamentally unique and not derivative and holds up well into the future

I think Tetris, Portal, and Outer Wilds are my top 3 objectively best games, but I think you have an argument for stuff like Super Metroid and ocarina of time.

Edit: Just saw doom as a mention, that also is a fantastic choice

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HeroDelTiempo17 posted...

No, that's stupid.

The best video game ever made is Outer Wilds

You mean Majora's Mask 2?

Any way you look at it it comes back to MM

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And MM is just OoT 2 so it just comes back to that

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MM is just LttP3 when you really think about it

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Leonhart4 posted...

MM is just LttP3 when you really think about it

how can it be LttP3 when LttP2 came out 13 years later?

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MZero posted...

how can it be LttP3 when LttP2 came out 13 years later?

That wacky Zelda timeline man

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Like Citizen Kane, Ocarina of Time commands the most respect in gaming which is really what this question is about.

I doubt more than a handful of people who watches Citizen Kane for the first time today without knowing the context of its place in history would say it's the best movie ever. The medium is just too diverse now.

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charmander6000 posted...

Like Citizen Kane, Ocarina of Time commands the most respect in gaming which is really what this question is about.

I guess. Ocarina of Time is also still new enough that a lot of people feel good about themselves for not liking it or thinking it's overrated.

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There is no such thing as an objective best game ever made rather by definition IMO.

As for me personally, I gave OoT (3D) 12 hours of my time several years ago in hopes I'd see what so many others did in it, but to no avail.

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Citizen Kane is such a weird comparison because we hear its praise without context. I don't think Ocarina of Time is really the best comparison because they both operate in different spheres inside their medium - Ocarina of Time is very much the perfect example of movement in 3D gaming taking the next leap. It's a technological marvel. Meanwhile, Citizen Kane feels more like an endpoint to black and white cinema - it's not so much laying out new techniques as much as it is refining them in a ceaseless display.

I don't think there's really a good comparison for what Ocarina of Time represents because early cinema is kinda marred by problematic content. Like, Ocarina of Time feels like the equivalent of film moving into the sound era, but I don't have a clear idea of what the first great sound film would be.

Like, if we're going for the Citizen Kane comparison, I think Half-Life 2 or Resident Evil 4 would be a better answer, two games that did nothing explicitly new but represent a high in the medium that hasn't been outright outdone.

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Palbatross posted...

Not only have better games been released since, Link to the Past stands the test of time better due to the graphics not looking like crap by modern standards.

They literally remastered it 10 years ago.

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pjbasis posted...

And MM is just OoT 2 so it just comes back to that

Nah it's a totally original game with a Zelda skin

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