Poll of the Day > DEMOCRAT says she was HORRIFIED to see a WOMAN with PENIS at an ASIAN SPA!!!

(+) Yeah! (+)

I mean couldn't you have a covering or a cup etc that you can wear if your trans and going into a female spa, so nobody is offended?

I don't particularly like looking at male genetalia myself, and I certainly wouldn't want a daughter of mine exposed to such when going into a spa etc. I think it's reasonable to expect no male genetalia in a women's spa. If you identify as female but have not had surgery, is it that much to ask for you to cover up your junk?

Honestly even going that far doesn't seem enough because what stops guys who actually are not trans from dressing up and wearing a cup etc, to go into such spa's and see nude women. There are very horny guys who would probably totally do that.

I'm pro trans rights etc, but you ALSO need to consider other peoples rights and preferences, and women should not have to be forced to see male genetalia if they want to use a spa. I would, instead, suggest provided (all sex) spa's where anyone can go (male/female/non-designated etc). That does require a whole extra spa, but....perhaps not, perhaps the MALE spa can be designated that way, open to all genders, but the female spa is for people with female genitalia only. I don't think many guys would mind if a woman (or a trans woman etc) used the male spa, so that would probably work.

Honestly I'm not comfortable being naked with strangers in any setting lol, never liked it in gyms/changing rooms (Even though I had to do it often since I like to swim etc). I'm a guy and I STILL don't like it, if I was a girl and there were guys in my changing room etc (or people with guy parts), I would change in the toilet instead.

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wolfy42 posted...

There are very horny guys who would probably totally do that.

and they would get thrown out and maybe even charged for being creeps

big difference between someone just changing or sitting in the sauna relaxing and somebody leering at people while they sit there with an erection

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wolfy42 posted...

There are very horny guys who would probably totally do that.

Now youre sounding like that women. But that brings up another question. Whats to stop gay guys from going to a spa to look at other naked guys. Or lesbian women from looking at other naked women
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Mead posted...

and they would get thrown out and maybe even charged for being creeps

big difference between someone just changing or sitting in the sauna relaxing and somebody leering at people while they sit there with an erection

LinkPizza posted...

Now youre sounding like that women. But that brings up another question. Whats to stop gay guys from going to a spa to look at other naked guys. Or lesbian women from looking at other naked women

It may happen a bit, but yeah, seriously, you guys didn't see the "horny" kinda guys who tried to spy on girls etc when you were in high school/college etc? I can easily imagine them dressing up as a girl to get in a locker room etc. I just don't think having people with male genitalia in a female spa/changing room etc makes sense. There has to be a way to make everyone feel included and comfortable.

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wolfy42 posted...

There has to be a way to make everyone feel included and comfortable.

Nope. Literally impossible Some guys might not feel comfortable around other nude guys. And I know straight guys who wouldnt like a gay guy looking at them. Cant please everyone
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LinkPizza posted...

Nope. Literally impossible Some guys might not feel comfortable around other Jude guys. And I know straight guys who wouldnt like a gay guy looking at them. Cant please everyone

As I mentioned before, I have never felt comfortable being nude around strangers (heck even with doctors of either sex). I have put up with it due to neccesity, but given my choice I would change in private (in fact I actually use the toilet to pee in mens rooms with urinals if one is opened).

I think in general it's ok to most men to have women in their changing rooms/spas etc, so having the "male" spa's changing rooms be all gendered (any gender can be in them) would solve alot of the problems. Female changing rooms are ONLY for those who have female genitalia though. This is directly because many women have been sexually assaulted etc, and it's unfair to expect them to be nude in a spa etc with a person of any gender who has male genitalia. I personally think that is more of a burden on them, then it would be for someone who is trans to use a "all gender" spa.

This would literally only require you to change the name of male changing rooms and male spas, to all gender changing rooms and spas, and then just have a female only one as well.

It's not a perfect solution, but I think it's the best and "should" enable the greatest number of people to feel comfortable/safe etc. Yeah, nothing is perfect, but it's better then having .......ANY......male genitaled people in a female changing room/spa that still find women attractive (and just because someone identifies as a woman, doesn't mean they are not attracted to them, and also still have male genitalia.

If I was a woman or was converted into being a woman, I would still find them attractive, so if I actually did identify as female (which I don't), and went into a female spa etc, I would still find the women attractive. If I didn't have surgery and still had male genitalia, I could ever get aroused. I personally would NEVER do that as I would consider that extremely rude, and I would continue to use a male spa/changing room (even though I would feel even more uncomfortable doing so). I would probably just change in the bathroom at that point for sure.

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wolfy42 posted...

I mean couldn't you have a covering or a cup

folks, we've found ourselves a genius

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A woman shouldnt be discriminated against just because she has a dick.

You dont have to look at peoples genitals at the spa, you dont have to go to the spa at all if you dont want to and every place has rules in place that are expected to be followed.

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wolfy42 posted...

It may happen a bit, but yeah, seriously, you guys didn't see the "horny" kinda guys who tried to spy on girls etc when you were in high school/college etc? I can easily imagine them dressing up as a girl to get in a locker room etc.

People bring that up a lot in the context of all the bathroom bills floating around, but here's the thing: Trans women have been using women's bathrooms for decades, and that's never been a problem. Being a creep is already grounds to throw someone out and ban them from using the place, regardless of their alleged gender identity. There's no need to bar people from coming in because they *might* be a creep.

wolfy42 posted...

it's better then having .......ANY......male genitaled people in a female changing room/spa that still find women attractive (and just because someone identifies as a woman, doesn't mean they are not attracted to them, and also still have male genitalia.

Except lesbians are already accepted. Why should that lesbian having a penis change that?

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wolfy42 posted...

I think in general it's ok to most men to have women in their changing rooms/spas etc, so having the "male" spa's changing rooms be all gendered (any gender can be in them) would solve alot of the problems. Female changing rooms are ONLY for those who have female genitalia though.

Many places do have that. And it really seems kind of sexist, tbh
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wolfy42 posted...

I would probably just change in the bathroom at that point for sure.

So the people worried about changing in a room with other nude people can do that
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Look, I'm a bit overprotective of kids. I even had them look away (both genders) when a male janitor lifted his shirt and scratched his pot belly in front of them. Perhaps I am a prude but I just don't want kids (especially young girls) exposed to male genitalia. I'm also protective of women who have been sexually abused/raped etc.

I sadly have no kids of my own, I'm not female so this would not directly affect me. I general tend to try to stay out of such issues, since I have no horse in the race so to speak.

In this case though, I feel strongly that while everyone has the right to identify as whatever gender they are, there should be restrictions in any places involving children for sure, and honestly I find it's ........cruel, to not take into account the possible negative experiences of some of the other people using the same facilities.

I don't believe in discrimination, but, I also don't believe you need to flex your muscles and push to be treated the same in EVERY way, there are other places to stand your ground and push for equality. IF you have the same genitalia as the people in a (gender specific) facility, then you should use it.

IF you still the original parts you were born with, even if you feel you should have been born with other parts, I feel you should continue to use that gender's form of changing room or any room involving nudity.

I would say that wearing soemthing to cover such parts would also be ok to some degree (still has some problems but it would be a compromise).

IF all of that is impossible and anyone with whatever bits can be in any changing room etc, that should DEFINATLY be posted and made VERY clear to anyone who plans on using it.

I would not want my daughter to be exposed to male genitalia at a gym for instance and would totally NOT be ok if that happened (if I had a daughter of course). I would not be ok with that happening to my friends daughters that I care about etc either.

Yeah, Im an american, and we are overly concerned about nudity etc, but I can't help how I feel, and that is how I feel about kids. I'm not ok with children being exposed to that when going to the YMCA for instance for swim lessons or swimming in the pool in the summer. Luckily they have family changing rooms and so I would use that if I brought any kids to the pool, but honestly not everyone is going to know that is even needed and kids could easily be exposed without the parents even knowing, or not knowing till afterwards.

There ARE ways for everyone to be accommodated, it would just cost more money/require new construction or rooms etc. I don't thinks ok just to tell people that women with male genitalia are now allowed in female only changing rooms, so deal with it.

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wolfy42 posted...

Look, I'm a bit overprotective of kids.

what are you protecting them from in this situation though? Bringing a kid somewhere like that is a questionable decision at best but obviously no one should ever leave them alone in a place with nude strangers and any abuse of children is obviously a serious crime regardless of sex or gender

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Mead posted...

what are you protecting them from in this situation though? Bringing a kid somewhere like that is a questionable decision at best but obviously no one should ever leave them alone in a place with nude strangers and any abuse of children is obviously a serious crime regardless of sexual or gender

In the specific SPA situation above I agree, that was the mothers choice, although I don't think she knew in advance women with dicks would be in the spa (pretty sure she didn't from her response). While it's a bit questionable to bring a young girl into such a place, she did not expect her daughter to be in a mixed gender spa, and thought only people with female genitalia would be included.

In many places like the YMCA though kids change in a large changing room, often unsupervised by parents (especially for swim lessons etc). Personally I don't think they should be unsupervised, but that is the way they do it.

Plain and simply, I just believe if you feel you are a certain gender then they need to diferentiate the changing rooms/spas etc not by gender but by plumbing.

If you have a clit, then over there you sit.
If you have a dong, then that direction is wrong!!

Something like that.

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wolfy42 posted...

Look, I'm a bit overprotective of kids.

So dont bring them to a spa Its that simple
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wolfy42 posted...

It may happen a bit, but yeah, seriously, you guys didn't see the "horny" kinda guys who tried to spy on girls etc when you were in high school/college etc? I can easily imagine them dressing up as a girl to get in a locker room etc. I just don't think having people with male genitalia in a female spa/changing room etc makes sense. There has to be a way to make everyone feel included and comfortable.

No. I don't live in an anime. If a person was this bold and cunning to try this out, they probably would already have a girlfriend.

I have seen the depths of loserdom and while there may be the will there usually is not the skill. The forever alone are hopeless, pathetic creatures

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DragonClaw01 posted...

No. I don't live in an anime. If a person was this bold and cunning to try this out, they probably would already have a girlfriend.

I have seen the depths of loserdom and while there may be the will there usually is not the skill. The forever alone are hopeless, pathetic creatures

I mean, it is a different world then when I grew up. We didn't have the internet, tons of pron online etc, so I guess any of those crazy horny dudes have other outlets now. When I was a kid there was even a dude in elementary school who would go around feeling up the girls.

Maybe the "horny" guys are not common anymore, but there used to be guys who basically from puberty or sometime in the next few years were all about sex, seeing chicks naked etc.

While that may be outdated, people of my generation can't help thinking they are still out there, so I think it may be partially a generational thing, and younger people may not have seen people like that as much or even know about them (and maybe they don't even exist anymore).


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wolfy42 posted...

Maybe the "horny" guys are not common anymore, but there used to be guys who basically from puberty or sometime in the next few years were all about sex, seeing chicks naked etc.

there are still just as many of them but they usually stay indoors since most people dont tolerate creepy stuff they want to do

there are different expectations nowadays and more communication

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Yeah, everyone just does porn, video games and cry's about not getting a girlfriend on 4chan now a days. No one is going through the effort to be a masher it peeping tom

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Everyone's all worked up.

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idk it is a nude spa why are you taking your child there if you're worried about nudity

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Naruto_fan_42 posted...

idk it is a nude spa why are you taking your child there if you're worried about nudity

they misunderstood and thought they said they only had steamed clams

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DragonClaw01 posted...

If a person was this bold and cunning to try this out, they probably would already have a girlfriend.

not trying to make a point, it just fits what you're saying

Man died accidentally after climbing behind women's washroom wall
https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/calgary/calgary-mall-body-washroom-wall-public-police-homicide-1.4645550

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adjl posted...

Yeah, indecent exposure only applies to places where people aren't explicitly permitted to be naked.

is it wrong for a male to enter the women's changing room at a swimming pool? and then is it also wrong for him to get naked there?

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Sahuagin posted...

is it wrong for a male to enter the women's changing room at a swimming pool? and then is it also wrong for him to get naked there?

That would wrong as he is not in the place he is suppose to be if he changes in there. Or even just going in, since hes not suppose to be there
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LinkPizza posted...

That would wrong as he is not in the place he is suppose to be if he changes in there. Or even just going in, since hes not suppose to be there

is that it? the rules say "this type of person cannot enter", so the only moral issue there is that he broke the rule about entering rooms?

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Sahuagin posted...

is it wrong for a male to enter the women's changing room at a swimming pool? and then is it also wrong for him to get naked there?

yes because he is a man

if she was trans and had a penis though it wouldnt be a big deal, that is different from a man

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Sahuagin posted...

is that it? the rules say "this type of person cannot enter", so the only moral issue there is that he broke the rule about entering rooms?

AFAIK, the lockers rooms say he cannot enter. If they were trans, then what Mead said is correct. I dont know many places with lockers rooms that say anyone can enter either one
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Mead posted...

yes because he is a man

if she was trans and had a penis though it wouldnt be a big deal, that is different from a man

I didn't say "man" I said "male"

but regardless what is the difference between the two situations? ie: why is it wrong for a "man" to enter?

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Sahuagin posted...

I didn't say "man" I said "male"

but regardless what is the difference between the two situations? ie: why is it wrong for a "man" to enter?

because men arent allowed in there

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Mead posted...

because men arent allowed in there

so again, the only moral issue here is the breaking of room entering rules?

Mead posted...

if she was trans and had a penis though it wouldnt be a big deal

what if trans women were "not allowed in there"?

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Sahuagin posted...

what if trans women were "not allowed in there"?

then trans women wouldnt be allowed in there

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Mead posted...

then trans women wouldnt be allowed in there

and so it would be morally wrong for trans women to enter?

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Sahuagin posted...

and so it would be morally wrong for trans women to enter?

it would break the rules and they should be thrown out

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Mead posted...

it would break the rules and they should be thrown out

and is morally wrong? (you began by saying it was wrong for a "man" to enter; I hadn't specifically said morally wrong, so perhaps you meant legally wrong instead)

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Sahuagin posted...

and is morally wrong? (you began by saying it was wrong for a "man" to enter; I hadn't specifically said morally wrong, so perhaps you meant legally wrong instead)

I dont see what difference it makes? Everywhere has rules. Its wrong to break rules of places when you go to them.

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Mead posted...

I dont see what difference it makes? Everywhere has rules. Its wrong to break rules of places when you go to them.

yes, it's legally wrong to break legal rules, that's just a tautology.

is it morally wrong for a "man" to enter the women's change room at a swimming pool?

this might actually be a better example: is it morally wrong for a man to invite a woman to his apartment but surprise her by being fully nude when she arrives?

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Sahuagin posted...

is it morally wrong for a "man" to enter the women's change room at a swimming pool?

In most cases, yes

Sahuagin posted...

this might actually be a better example: is it morally wrong for a man to invite a woman to his apartment but surprise her by being fully nude when she arrives?

This also depends on many things. Like the relationship between the two. Or what they were going to do once there
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people trying to back each other into corners: the topic

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LinkPizza posted...

In most cases, yes

why?

LinkPizza posted...

Like the relationship between the two

by surprise I mean that she was not expecting this. but yeah, the example needs more detail.

I'm going to skip forward because I'm wearing out for today. here's what I have now:

I think the changing room situation is close to being the inverse of the spa situation, but not quite.

it's immoral for a man to enter the women's changing room because the people there have an expectation that is being violated.

but to make it like the spa we would have to say that the people in the changing room had a false expectation.

as I said previously this is a failure of communication.

if the people in the women's change room are under the false impression that they are protected there in some way, then the fault lies with whoever should have made them aware of the situation.

it IS immoral to allow someone into a situation where they will be exposed to nudity non-consensually, even if the rules technically allow for it. (and yes we can separate the sexes there too. a person that consents to being around female nudity does not necessarily consent to being around male nudity.)

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Sahuagin posted...

is it morally wrong for a "man" to enter the women's change room at a swimming pool?

it depends on the reason he is going in there

if he is trying to look at women who have an expectation of privacy, then yes he is doing something morally wrong

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Mead posted...

it depends on the reason he is going in there

if he is trying to look at women who have an expectation of privacy, then yes he is doing something morally wrong

violating their expectation of privacy would be morally wrong, regardless of whether he is "trying to look at" them. the problem is violating the implied contract with other people.

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Sahuagin posted...

why?

Because hes not suppose to be on there. And if hes going in there for any bad reason like just looking at nude women, its wrong

Sahuagin posted...

by surprise I mean that she was not expecting this. but yeah, the example needs more detail.

I'm going to skip forward because I'm wearing out for today. here's what I have now:

I think the changing room situation is close to being the inverse of the spa situation, but not quite.

it's immoral for a man to enter the women's changing room because the people there have an expectation that is being violated.

but to make it like the spa we would have to say that the people in the changing room had a false expectation.

as I said previously this is a failure of communication.

if the people in the women's change room are under the false impression that they are protected there in some way, then the fault lies with whoever should have made them aware of the situation.

it IS immoral to allow someone into a situation where they will be exposed to nudity non-consensually, even if the rules technically allow for it. (and yes we can separate the sexes there too. a person that consents to being around female nudity does not necessarily consent to being around male nudity.)

I didnt ask what surprise meant, because that still doesnt mean anything. For example, I might surprise my BF by being naked when he comes over, and hes probably like that. But it would be weird if I did the same thing to a friend. Which is why I mentioned the relationship needing to be defined

And you mentioned that they were exposing people to nudity non-consensually, but thats wrong. They were at a spa that allows nudity. Meaning that they were consenting to possibly being around nude people. If they didnt want to be around people who might be nude, they dont go to a spa that allows nudity. Its really that simple. But going to the spa, they would be consenting to following the spa rules. And the spa rules allow nudity. Theres nothing wrong or immoral about that
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LinkPizza posted...

And you mentioned that they were exposing people to nudity non-consensually, but thats wrong. They were at a spa that allows nudity. Meaning that they were consenting to possibly being around nude people. If they didnt want to be around people who might be nude, they dont go to a spa that allows nudity. Its really that simple. But going to the spa, they would be consenting to following the spa rules. And the spa rules allow nudity. Theres nothing wrong or immoral about that

Ahh but they may have consented to being around female nudity (as in the actual sexual organs) and not male nudity, and even if someone identifies as a woman, if they still have a male organ, that would be something people (especially if they have not been notified about it) didn't consent to.

I would be ok with my daughter (if I had one) being around other naked women in a spa. I would probably want a friend or relative to be with her anyway (no probably about it) but i would be ok with her being there.

I would not be ok with her being around naked men, or even naked women who still had male apenndages. I'm not going to tell other people how to behave with their daughter, I won't fight to prevent a spa from allowing people of all genders or apendages being in a spa together, but I will fight to ensure that anyone going into such a spa is warned in advance, so they can make an informed decision.

I also would not want my son going into a universal spa, until he was older and I knew he would behave etc. I just don't think it's appropriate, but that again is my own beliefs, I wouldn't put my ideas on others.

But if you allow women with male genitalia into a "female" spa, without warning the other women (who have female body parts), I believe that is wrong. IF it's stated ahead of time, then everyone can decide to use it or not, but I don't think spas should be forced to allow it either. People should be allowed to associate only with others who have the same body parts when nude. You have the right to live as any gender you want, but there still should be rules about where you can go, and what you can do based on the body parts you currently have.

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wolfy42 posted...

Ahh but they may have consented to being around female nudity (as in the actual sexual organs) and not male nudity, and even if someone identifies as a woman, if they still have a male organ, that would be something people (especially if they have not been notified about it) didn't consent to.

Except a female can have a penis. Genitals arent what chooses gender So, of that makes you uncomfortable, then dont go to the spa

And there were rules. The woman just didnt like the rules
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wolfy42 posted...

I'm pro trans rights etc, but

Lmfao

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MeteoricBurst posted...

What's to debate. The spa in question is known to have trans clientele. There is no debate it's part of their policy. This was not some unique thing there. That's how they knew none of their registered clients was there at the time. So if it was indeed faked this person should be arrested. People got assaulted over this too.

So you're saying she lied but don't question if the spa might be lying instead since they already got hit with controversy?
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Revelation34 posted...

So you're saying she lied but don't question if the spa might be lying instead since they already got hit with controversy?

So you're more willing to believe some rando than a professional business that keeps records. I'm saying she lied because from what I've gathered the police got called in for this and haven't found evidence this thing happened like she said it did. Well that's the last I saw the story could still be updating.

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Sahuagin posted...

violating their expectation of privacy would be morally wrong, regardless of whether he is "trying to look at" them. the problem is violating the implied contract with other people.

that doesnt relate to the story at hand

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Sahuagin posted...

is it wrong for a male to enter the women's changing room at a swimming pool? and then is it also wrong for him to get naked there?

Getting naked would qualify as indecent exposure, since he's not explicitly permitted to get naked there. Simply entering would not inherently be wrong, but there aren't many possible non-nefarious reasons for him to enter, and entering for nefarious reasons is wrong (by simple virtue of being nefarious).

Sahuagin posted...

I didn't say "man" I said "male"

but regardless what is the difference between the two situations? ie: why is it wrong for a "man" to enter?

Honestly, I don't see much by way of inherent moral wrong in either situation. Nudity is morally neutral and inflicts no inherent harm. The only harm or moral foul arises in how it is applied or treated, which is a set of conscious decisions from the people involved in the situation. In truth, desegregating facilities like these wouldn't be a problem at all.

In practice, the issue boils down to expectations: You don't expect a dong in the ladies' room, so when that happens, people feel uncomfortable. The thing is, you also don't expect a full-body tattoo of Spongebob. Somebody shows up in one of these spas with a full-body Spongebob tattoo, though, and you aren't going to get a public announcement about how her daughter was "scandalized" and angry protests over the "incident." Why the different standards? Why are penises so special and horrible and unexpected that seeing one warrants such a gross overreaction? Simply being unexpected doesn't explain that, especially where you're significantly more likely to see a trans woman at a spa than you are any countless number of other specific unusual aesthetic variations.

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