Poll of the Day > I love video games, but they DEFINITELY make the world worse lol

(+) Yeah! (+)

Just wondering how many other people agree with me on this. I feel like there's a lot, LOT of people who would probably be doing more productive things with their lives. Sure, games are fun, but there's better, healthier ways to have fun. I can't really think of anything which I was able to get out of a video game that I couldn't -- hypothetically at least -- have gotten somewhere better. I've also seen many people who absolutely use video games as a distraction for avoiding real problems. I'm not sure they'd be able to do that so easily if their hobby was a sport, an instrument, wood carving, etc. Games are just way more addictive and time consuming now than they used to be. Although I will say, I do think games are at least better than watching TV since they're at least relatively engaging.

Again, I love me some games, but I place them squarely in the "tolerable vice" category of my life lol.

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I disagree. Without video games, people would waste their time doing something else. So, many people would not actually be more productive. Also, the enjoyment is what youre getting out of it. Thats all you need to get out of it. Theyre made for people to have fun with. And thats what people do. And some people get other things out of it, like money. E-Sports and shit. And some actually help people learn stuff. Some are educational, and some just help you with certain skills. So, I wholeheartedly disagree with you. Video games make the world better
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If you like playing them and aren't using them as a crutch for real world problems or have an addiction, what's the problem?

While I'm inclined to think that video games are probably a net detriment, they haven't made the world substantially worse. And there are at least some arguable benefits. In the other board, I had mentioned a few of those, but I guess they've also encouraged more kids to take up programming as well.

Otherwise, in theory, games could do a lot of social good. They could be a powerful tool for things like education (although, as I noted elsewhere, when an educational game becomes outdated, it *really* becomes outdated at times)

Ninja4820 posted...

I feel like there's a lot, LOT of people who would probably be doing more productive things with their lives.

Let's be honest: Most people wouldn't be doing anything better with their time.

Video games are a better distraction than a lot of other things, but people will find other ways to distract themselves. In many ways, games just filled a niche being occupied by other entertainment.

Ninja4820 posted...

I've also seen many people who absolutely use video games as a distraction for avoiding real problems. I'm not sure they'd be able to do that so easily if their hobby was a sport, an instrument, wood carving, etc.

They might take up drinking, so video games are a massive improvement in that regard since alcohol is one of the most horrific human inventions and is tied to 25% of all crime, 30%+ of all traffic fatalities, roughly half of all domestic abuse, etc.

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lol

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The idea that people should always be more productive is fucking stupid.

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no one should have fun ever or have hobbies we should all be busy worker bees only doing productive things

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Zeus posted...

Let's be honest: Most people wouldn't be doing anything better with their time.

Most of us here aren't even playing video games, and we still aren't doing anything better with our time than posting on a message board that's been completely obsolete for nearly 10 years.
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I feel the same way. I got addicted to video games, and they have become a big distraction for me.

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https://youtu.be/eTdgHsifK38?t=72

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I dont agree at all

video games are cool in a similar way that books are cool

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I think it's like any medium (TV, books, movies, etc.). you can just mindlessly waste time consuming crap, or you can focus on only the best of the best that you can find, making sure you're always learning something and getting something of value out of the experience and moving on quickly if you aren't.

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lol "more productive things". Think again.

Most people would just be watching tv or on the internet.

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Y'know what really made the world worse? The talkie-pictures, y'hear?

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ParanoidObsessive posted...

Most of us here aren't even playing video games, and we still aren't doing anything better with our time than posting on a message board that's been completely obsolete for nearly 10 years.

Obsolete? This board has had as much purpose as it did 10 years ago or 20 years ago >_>

Metalsonic66 posted...

Y'know what really made the world worse? The talkie-pictures, y'hear?

I blame internet slang. At one point, people were capable of forming and expressing coherent thoughts. Now they just say "lol"

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All my lulz are belong to OBJECTION for great justice

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Yeah, I dunno. People are going to be concerned about whatever the newest form of entertainment is, whether it was TV in the 50s or roller skating around the 1900s. Right now it's video games.

ANY entertainment is going to have a negative effect on a person's development (and, ultimately, their happiness) if they spend 99% of their free time doing it. But no entertainment is going to be a problem if it's played with friends or played as part of a more balanced life.

To go further, video games COULD be viewed more like books or "quality" TV if there were a few more games with intelligent adult interactions and storylines. Unfortunately there doesn't seem to be much demand for such things (or companies willing/capable of producing them, maybe). The real problem is the internet and smartphones which, despite all of their benefits, have reduced people's attention span to about 5 seconds and kept them in a state or more or less permanent semi-distraction. (I'm not exempting myself from that) Video games which appeal to that mindset have amplified the problem.

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I just plain don't enjoy them anymore (not 100% true - see below).

There are things I would rather be doing, like working in my shop, keeping up my yard, etc. My kid is really into games though, so I check in with him every now and then. We sometimes play together - building things in Minecraft or making levels in Super Mario Maker, but I don't really love the game(s) to the point that I focus on them or think about them.

I don't have the time to disconnect myself enough to actually enjoy a video game. Once every couple of years, I might take a few days off and do nothing but play a video game 9-5 (Usually an RPG like Chrono Trigger, FF6, etc.) I can enjoy it then, because I'm not thinking about what we need for dinner, how many appointments I have this week, or other daily tasks. That is about all the gaming I do anymore.

same thing can be said about sex

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being productive is a waste of time

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For a long time as a teen, my mother complained about how much time I spent on the computer.

Meanwhile, she spent most of her leisure time watching bullshit TV shows (and this was long before DVR, so it was just whatever crap was on TV at the time).

But I was also a voracious reader of books, and got good grades in school.

There are lots of bad things people do. Drugs, alcohol, tv, delinquency, crime, etc, I hardly think enjoying video games is anywhere near the same level.

I've often looked at TV and movies (and even books) as passive entertainment, whereas video games are interactive entertainment.

fishy071 posted...

I feel the same way. I got addicted to video games, and they have become a big distraction for me.

I can't argue this point, I've known people who took things too far, playing Warcraft all day and they ended up doing bad in school and having to drop out.

I do think parents need to limit how much time kids and young adults spend on online games, they are addictive. But IMO the answer is the same as alcohol: you don't ban it, you have to train them to have responsible attitudes toward them. Because otherwise, if they have no exposure at all, they dive in and have no understanding, no frame of reference, etc.

I had actually played WoW for a great many years, and ended up quitting not because I didn't like the game, but because it was consuming too much of my free time, and there was other stuff I wanted to do (but wasn't).

ParanoidObsessive posted...

Most of us here aren't even playing video games, and we still aren't doing anything better with our time than posting on a message board that's been completely obsolete for nearly 10 years.

Honestly this is the worst part, video games are what brought me to this hellhole. But who's to say the same thing wouldn't have happened with a TV forum or something, nobody knows for sure.

This place is pretty tame in comparison to some of the places that "gamers" like to frequent, of course

Also I'm a weird freak who hates work but likes to be "productive" in my spare time. Though maybe that's why I hate work, it eats into time that I could be doing productive things for myself instead of a company I have no real stake in

Ninja4820 posted...

Just wondering how many other people agree with me on this. I feel like there's a lot, LOT of people who would probably be doing more productive things with their lives. Sure, games are fun, but there's better, healthier ways to have fun. I can't really think of anything which I was able to get out of a video game that I couldn't -- hypothetically at least -- have gotten somewhere better. I've also seen many people who absolutely use video games as a distraction for avoiding real problems. I'm not sure they'd be able to do that so easily if their hobby was a sport, an instrument, wood carving, etc. Games are just way more addictive and time consuming now than they used to be. Although I will say, I do think games are at least better than watching TV since they're at least relatively engaging.

Again, I love me some games, but I place them squarely in the "tolerable vice" category of my life lol.

They made me sharper and I react much quicker than most people in real-life activities, such as driving. I dont play them all the time anymore. If I didnt (hadnt) play(ed) them at all, I would probably just read or watch TV anyways.

Ninja4820 posted...

Just wondering how many other people agree with me on this.

No as your points can be counteracted. Some folk work in the video game industry or are even studying to be in that industry so are actually using video games in a productive way. Hell even if people are not doing that video games can be used in a productive way. Video games can also be healthy for the brain. This can help with mental illnesses. Having "more healthy" options to have fun is not only subjective but not always possible. As for the addiction thing that can happen with anything.

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Disagree. Are books and art bad?

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Kimbos_Egg posted...

lol "more productive things". Think again.

Most people would just be watching tv or on the internet.

This. What a weird topic to preach about on a gaming board.

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Ninja4820 posted...

Just wondering how many other people agree with me on this. I feel like there's a lot, LOT of people who would probably be doing more productive things with their lives. Sure, games are fun, but there's better, healthier ways to have fun. I can't really think of anything which I was able to get out of a video game that I couldn't -- hypothetically at least -- have gotten somewhere better. I've also seen many people who absolutely use video games as a distraction for avoiding real problems. I'm not sure they'd be able to do that so easily if their hobby was a sport, an instrument, wood carving, etc. Games are just way more addictive and time consuming now than they used to be. Although I will say, I do think games are at least better than watching TV since they're at least relatively engaging.

Again, I love me some games, but I place them squarely in the "tolerable vice" category of my life lol.

only important part


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EvilMegas posted...

This. What a weird topic to preach about on a gaming board.

Yeah, this is the same website where you get shamed for using a walkthrough.

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I don't think it's a 1:1 correlation that videogames take 100% credit for but since videogames became mainstream and widely available violent crime rates have cratered in the places they're popular. It would take a very convincing argument to persuade me that doesn't mean videogames have made the world a better place and "I dunno man, whatever happened to like...uhh...hustle?" is not even close.

That is very untrue. Just look at the toxic online gaming culture. If they had to LARP they'd kill each other for real. They could really do some damage... But with their setups they've got their "safe spaces".
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*cracks knuckles* Alright, there's a lot of weak as fuck arguments in this topic. I'm going to organize these points in a way that doesn't address people personally (cuz there's already enough massive cope going on). No but seriously, I hope everyone will argue/debate in a jovial way, I'm not trying to take anyone down here or shame people, just have some fun discussion.

1. People would just be doing something else/worse if they weren't playing games.

They'd obviously be doing something else, but whether it's worse is a bit hard to imagine. Someone mentioned alcohol. I can't imagine much of a correlation between video games and avoiding alcohol. Anecdotally, some kids I knew in high school who drank played video games, some didn't. Of those who didn't drink, some played games, some didn't. I couldn't say it was really skewed in any direction, but I'm almost certainly sure that games never factored into anyone's decision to drink or not to drink.

More importantly though, this argument could be generalized to ANY hobby. I.e. "if you play football, you won't have time for alcohol," "if you join band, you won't have time for alcohol." But the point is that many of those hobbies might be better than gaming. This argument doesn't seem to help gaming as a hobby.

Finally, there's the idea that, if someone weren't playing video games, they'd be doing something equally worthless, which is something I don't necessarily buy. I think for most people you basically run out of worthless time sinks after video games, TV, and web surfing, before you're almost forced to do something moderately better, like read a book. What did our grandparents do, at a time before endless TV channels and entertainment? A lot of them belonged to clubs. There's a great book called Bowling Alone, which really goes into how much American social life has deteriorated. I suspect, if people didn't have those three things (games, tv, internet), they would be much more active or involved with other people.

2. Variants of "lol, being productive."

I realize I mentioned the word "productive" in the second sentence, but in the third sentence I specifically mentioned that there's plenty of ways to have fun. I haven't seen anyone in this topic make any sort of argument like, "give up all forms of fun, only work, only focus on making money, or self-improvement, or etc." I suspect this issue struck a lot of chords because, let's be honest, what gamer hasn't heard the "be more productive!" line from someone else? It's condescending, and fetishizes the hustle life, which is bullshit, life shouldn't just be about work.

That said, the real point here is that, if you're going to allot some segment of your life to entertainment, there's certainly better/worse ways to do it. Shooting heroin? Probably quite a bit worse unless you go on to be Lou Reed. Learning a new language, joining a club, building something, carving something, etc. -- are probably better ways to spend your time. The argument that "it could be worse," is not a compelling one!

3. Games can be educational/improved my coordination/etc.

Yes! Games can be educational, and can help with things like improving coordination. But how many games really do that? I know I hated most educational games as a kid (cuz they were just bad games, usually). This is a sad thing imo. I've used game-like websites to learn languages, to help prepared for standardized tests, etc., and that format really helped. But we all know the vast vast majority of games have little to no educational value. The same goes for coordination -- how many people really get any benefit from that?

4. As an industry, gaming employees many people and improves the economy.

Broken window fallacy -- yes, a great deal of income and economic benefit is generated by gaming, but those people would've had to work somewhere. They could just as hypothetically be employed in some other, better industry -- saving endangered pandas, curing cancer, etc.

5. This is a weird topic to bring up on a gaming board.

Is it? It's about gaming. Everyone here is interested in gaming. The GFaqs crowd is generally getting older/wiser now. No reason it couldn't be an interesting discussion, right?

Those are all COUNTER POINTS. I'd like to give a few AFFIRMATIVE ARGUMENTS against gaming now.

1. Gaming isn't terrible, but it falls on the net negative side of things.

This is my main assertion. There are very, very few instances in which I can think of it being a clear net positive. At the end of the day, it's purpose is entertainment, and while not the worst form of entertainment, it's far from the best, and probably on the lower end of the scale. Obviously, if you can play in moderation, you're fine, and I certainly won't judge you for it, but can we at least both be honest with ourselves and admit it falls into the category of "tolerable vice?" Like, I wouldn't proudly declare myself to be a gamer anymore than I would proudly declare myself to be someone who drinks or smokes. Also, if you want a quick rule of thumb for "where on the scale does hobby X fall," just ask yourself how would affect other people's perception of you. Again, just a rule of thumb... but I can't think of many people that would be impressed by a gaming hobby, and it would certainly hurt in many circumstances.

2. Modern games are addictive in a way that older games weren't.

Playing NES or even SNES era games, there was really only so long you could play a game before you just ran out of stuff to do or got bored. RPGs were considered kind of an exception, as a longer-form of play, and sure you might be able to theoretically play Street Fighter or something competitive endlessly, but even then... kids would still get bored eventually and go outside.

But nowadays, I've noticed companies have gotten REALLY good at making games endlessly attractive. Even something that should be short, like a platformer, seems to pull you back in with tons of achievements, speed running competitions, etc. etc. And that's obviously to say nothing of games that literally could go on forever like Minecraft or any MMO. I really think there are a lot more people that are addicted to games today than ever before.

Eh, those are the main things. I can think of a few other points, but I think those two are the big ones, and I don't want to detract from them at the moment.

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Decreased crime rates and popularity of video games are both so widespread that I don't know how anyone could seriously see something in that correlation

You would really go that far? Why should other get their pastimes but video games are just too much. I see nothing wrong with more options. That's all it is. At least it's some degree of activeness to it, where so many other media are passive and you can just turn your brain off. That's just too dull to me to do that much.

I couldn't care less about any stigma attached to it, it's just that widespread. Of course, why would I just announce it to the world, but why hide it.
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Metalsonic66 posted...

All my lulz are belong to OBJECTION for great justice

lol

wpot posted...

Yeah, I dunno. People are going to be concerned about whatever the newest form of entertainment is, whether it was TV in the 50s or roller skating around the 1900s. Right now it's video games.

Really? You went to highlight roller skating and not, say, radio? >_>

But tv has some pretty valid criticisms, albeit back then it was nowhere near as bad as it was by the 80s or 90s.

Wanded posted...

same thing can be said about sex

Sex very clearly has useful functions, considering people wouldn't exist without it.


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wwinterj25 posted...

No as your points can be counteracted. Some folk work in the video game industry or are even studying to be in that industry so are actually using video games in a productive way. Hell even if people are not doing that video games can be used in a productive way. Video games can also be healthy for the brain. This can help with mental illnesses. Having "more healthy" options to have fun is not only subjective but not always possible. As for the addiction thing that can happen with anything.

@wwinterj25 yeah really. What's more, fuck "not being productive." You are more than the sum of what you create!

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Ninja4820 posted...

Someone mentioned alcohol. I can't imagine much of a correlation between video games and avoiding alcohol. Anecdotally, some kids I knew in high school who drank played video games, some didn't. Of those who didn't drink, some played games, some didn't. I couldn't say it was really skewed in any direction, but I'm almost certainly sure that games never factored into anyone's decision to drink or not to drink.

You literally argued for games as a deliberate form of escapism. Alcohol is another deliberate form of escapism. If somebody couldn't get their mind off the world through games when they wanted to think about something else, alcohol would be on the table.

Do people get loaded unrelated to that? Of course, but that's a separate discussion.

Ninja4820 posted...

They'd obviously be doing something else, but whether it's worse is a bit hard to imagine.

It doesn't have to be "worse", it just has to be on par. Granted, there are certainly a lot of things worse than video games, and I'd be surprised if you can't imagine them.

Ninja4820 posted...

Finally, there's the idea that, if someone weren't playing video games, they'd be doing something equally worthless, which is something I don't necessarily buy. I think for most people you basically run out of worthless time sinks after video games, TV, and web surfing, before you're almost forced to do something moderately better, like read a book.

You should be old enough to know better than that. You likely grew up at a time when you had other leisure activities that eventually got replaced by gaming. And you might even be at the point in your life when you've moved on from gaming to something equally worthless.

And the idea that books are inherently better is just stupid. A lot of books, like most other things, are trash.

Otherwise there are an unlimited number of time sinks now. And the things people will watch is staggering, like reaction videos -- videos of people (generally mugging for the camera) reacting to content.

Ninja4820 posted...

What did our grandparents do, at a time before endless TV channels and entertainment? A lot of them belonged to clubs. There's a great book called Bowling Alone, which really goes into how much American social life has deteriorated. I suspect, if people didn't have those three things (games, tv, internet), they would be much more active or involved with other people.

That's a fallacious argument since so much gaming is communal. It's basically just a different venue for interaction. And there are certainly a lot of games now that foster communities -- and, to some extent, we're kinda on one now.

Otherwise people still belong to clubs nowadays and a lot of people back when didn't belong to clubs. And things like clubs arguably only existed to ease a social disconnect people experienced when they moved from towns (where everybody knew everybody) to cities.

Ninja4820 posted...

That said, the real point here is that, if you're going to allot some segment of your life to entertainment, there's certainly better/worse ways to do it. Shooting heroin? Probably quite a bit worse unless you go on to be Lou Reed. Learning a new language, joining a club, building something, carving something, etc. -- are probably better ways to spend your time. The argument that "it could be worse," is not a compelling one!

Not for nothing, but it kinda feels like you're chasing a sense of productivity rather than looking for actual productivity. Besides the fact that learning a new language isn't most peoples' idea of fun, if you're not adding value you're not necessarily gaining productivity.

I can understand why you think like that -- because I'm guilty of doing that as well at times -- but there's really no way of knowing what will or won't prove useful to you in the long-run. A lot of activities I've pursued with a perceived overt value turned out to be useless to me (both personally and professionally) where activities with no discernible overt value turned out to have either a personal or professional benefit.

People get addicted to the idea of skill trees, but real life doesn't work like that.

And on a much larger level, there have been sustained attempts to preserve certain elements and aspects of culture that haven't been relevant in hundreds of years. Even now you have people learning things for the sake of learning things so the knowledge doesn't vanish, which doesn't actually contribute anything. At the end of the day, you're just having people do something useless for the sake of doing something. At the end of the day, ask yourself there: What's the intrinsic value to learning a language that only a small number of people speak vs playing a game a large number of people play? If you're arguing for social benefits, obviously the game wins out in that context.

Ultimately when it comes to productivity, the question for me is always material benefit. If there's no material benefit between the two things, I see them as being roughly equal. However, you don't always know where the material benefit is going to come from. Hell, you don't even know where the social benefit might come from. Will knowing a language engender you to a boss? Will seeing a popular film help you connect with a co-worker? Will knowing about an obscure tv show find you a friend or romantic partner who loved that show? All of that is impossible to predict.

But yes, I still view video games as a net negative, just like I view a lot of other entertainment -- and most things -- as a net negative.

And, quite frankly, the fact that the world still has thousands of languages is stupid as fuck. Instead of focusing on having everybody learn multiple languages, we should be moving towards having just one or two languages. Now that would be *actual* productivity, instead of trying to get each person to learn ten to twenty languages.


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I dont care if gaming is productive

Im not trying to produce anything

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Not gonna bother reading that wall of text, it's quite clear that you're a moron

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Zeus posted...

Sex very clearly has useful functions, considering people wouldn't exist without it.

Not as many if you're gay. But even if you're not, we as sapient beings have come so far along now, it's so much more than reproduction, yet still valid. Nonetheless, it's fundamentally different, why bother comparing.
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Ninja4820 posted...

I can't really think of anything which I was able to get out of a video game that I couldn't -- hypothetically at least -- have gotten somewhere better.

I'm of the exact opposite mindset. Even things that are possible for me to do in real life are better in games.

Take a simple example like snowboarding. If I play Steep I can go snowboarding year-round regardless of the weather, for a fraction of the cost, and zero downtime. I'm never uncomfortable, I don't get hungry at any point, it doesn't make me tired, and there's no risk of injury.

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EchoBaz posted...

What's more, fuck "not being productive." You are more than the sum of what you create!

No, you're objectively wrong. Your only value as a human being stems from how many kids you have and how well you can project your genetic legacy into the future. Every other facet of human existence is utterly and completely meaningless!
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ParanoidObsessive posted...

No, you're objectively wrong. Your only value as a human being stems from how many kids you have and how well you can project your genetic legacy into the future. Every other facet of human existence is utterly and completely meaningless!

Nuh uh! You also have to instill your ideologies and beliefs, otherwise you're only doing half the job!

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How DARE people not contribute to the capitalist machine?!?!

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If you dont like gaining, thats fine. But to say its making the world worse is just flat out wrong
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Ninja4820 posted...

They'd obviously be doing something else, but whether it's worse is a bit hard to imagine.

No it's not. It's actually pretty easy. They could be committing crimes like theft, murder, or rape. Maybe selling illegal drugs. Anything really. Some people might consider tv or books (depending on the video game and book) worse. And if you want to say the better things they can be doing would be getting a job or learning a new language/instrument/skill, that also doesn't work. Because you can do that stuff, and still play games at the same time.

Ninja4820 posted...

Yes! Games can be educational, and can help with things like improving coordination. But how many games really do that? I know I hated most educational games as a kid (cuz they were just bad games, usually). This is a sad thing imo. I've used game-like websites to learn languages, to help prepared for standardized tests, etc., and that format really helped. But we all know the vast vast majority of games have little to no educational value. The same goes for coordination -- how many people really get any benefit from that?

Lots of people can gain lots of skills from video games. Just depends on the game. Like there are many games that can test you puzzle solving abilities. Being able to see the big picture, or put clues together. So will test your reflexes. And some will put your communication skills to the test. Some are about resource or time management, and some are about figuring out how to do a specific thing. Just because a game isn't educational doesn't mean it can't teach you something. Some games are also VNs, which is like an interactive book... Or can be like the Choose Your Own Adventure books...

Ninja4820 posted...

speed running competitions

Speed running isn't new. People have been doing with games for many years. Even Mario games back on the older systems use to have speed runners...
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PK_Spam posted...

How DARE people not contribute to the capitalist machine?!?!

It doesn't contribute to the communist machine either, comrade. In fact, I'm pretty sure Karl Marx once said video games are the opiate of the masses.

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I do enjoy people that claim that we would have the cure for cancer if it wasn't for video games or something. The average person that spends 50+ hours a week playing video games would likely find something else to waste those 50+ hours a week on if we lived in a world where video games never existed.