Current Events > Pro trans sports folks: why should trans women compete in women's leagues?

(+) Yeah! (+)

I truly want to understand this side of the argument

From most points of view (and maybe an ingrained transphobic view?) men perform better in nearly all physical sports at a high level. Therefore it's unfair to let a biological man into a woman's league. Am I wrong? Why?

The other topic is nothing but personal insults. I know very little about the subject

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Because trans women are women

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skermac posted...

Because trans women are women

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Coloradough posted...

I know very little about the subject

Maybe should shut up then

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TC, please don't. You know for a fact you're gonna get insults hurled your way too.
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How many people here with an opinion actually watch women's sports?

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CouldBeAnAlt posted...

Maybe should shut up then

But I honestly want to understand, why the hate? I want to be on your side

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Keep it in the general
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Coloradough posted...

But I honestly want to understand, why the hate? I want to be on your side

No you don't. You want to waste our time sealioning and demanding things while never actually having to do the same to maintain your original position.

Basically, shut the fuck up.

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I don't understand the argument either, but tbh i don't have a dog in this race and don't wanna touch it with a 50ft pole

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All I know is that the WNBA is about to get a whole lot more interesting.


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Coloradough posted...

I want to be on your side

do your fucking own work then

it isn't our job to educate you

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Its best to not discuss or even mention transgender people here, TC.

Coloradough posted...

Ok but sometimes that's only mentally, right?

I bring this topic up because I have a 100% untransitioned male friend who wants to compete in the women's league for ski running. But men ar much faster than women in this sport, and it would take her from mid pack male to solidly top 20 female

Is that still fair?

I don't mean to insinuate it isn't, I just don't get that part still. Socially, mentally, culturally, and emotionally she is a woman. But not physically or hormonally.

at first glance it doesnt seem fair but there is a lot more to it annd I dont know how its explained

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Because all women matter

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QueenCarly posted...

do your fucking own work then

it isn't our job to educate you

The weird thing is, you guys are educated about this...so, in fact, wouldn't it be pretty fuckin' easy to just send over your own material that you guys used to educate yourself?

It helps. It honestly does. Despite how everyone seems to think 'What's this? Disagreement?! Oh no, they hate transgender people!!!!11', not everyone is that way. That is just the way others like gunpla will paint you.

I want to have my mind changed. I, personally, am open to this sort of stuff.
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People who say there are no differences between biological women and trans women are being disingenuous.

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Coloradough posted...

I don't mean to insinuate it isn't, I just don't get that part still. Socially, mentally, culturally, and emotionally she is a woman. But not physically or hormonally.

Solution: Trans people must transition before allowed to compete

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Gruntling posted...

People who say there are no differences between biological women and trans women are being disingenuous.

Says the transphobe

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QueenCarly posted...

do your fucking own work then

it isn't our job to educate you

This is for real a meme post

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https://www.aclu.org/news/lgbtq-rights/four-myths-about-trans-athletes-debunked/

https://www.npr.org/2021/03/18/978716732/wave-of-new-bills-say-trans-athletes-have-an-unfair-edge-what-does-the-science-s

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@Coloradough

This article will get you started

https://www.npr.org/2021/03/18/978716732/wave-of-new-bills-say-trans-athletes-have-an-unfair-edge-what-does-the-science-s

one of the points brought up is that while there is a slight measurable benefit for trans women athletes, it currently lacks any visible practical advantage during actual competition.

as for your friend, its up to whatever league theyre competing in to decide its own rules.

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Suppose a guy sucks at his chosen sport and says to no one in charge he is thinking of becoming a transgender just so he can win against girls, that would be so wrong imo

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this is the only context in which i've ever seen people be so invested in womens sports

which means it's probably disingenuous like every time it's asked

skermac posted...

Suppose a guy sucks at his chosen sport and says to no one in charge he is thinking of becoming a transgender just so he can win against girls, that would be so wrong imo

does the staff ever wonder why these people feel so comfortable spewing this egregious shit?



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Gruntling posted...

People who say there are no differences between biological women and trans women are being disingenuous.

how are you defining "biological women" here such that trans women are excluded from the category?

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averagejoel posted...

how are you defining "biological women" here such that trans women are excluded from the category?

their stated personal views are that trans people are suffering a delusion that a weak society is indulging them in

they received no penalty for stating as much

then they gloated about it

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QueenCarly posted...

https://www.aclu.org/news/lgbtq-rights/four-myths-about-trans-athletes-debunked/

https://www.npr.org/2021/03/18/978716732/wave-of-new-bills-say-trans-athletes-have-an-unfair-edge-what-does-the-science-s

Thank you for providing articles.

First article is all opinion piece. The second point makes a good, objective point though. Some people will have more money for training, some people have longer legs, etc. That is pretty objective and harder to argue against. Honestly this is the reason segregation between the sexes exists, though. There is an inherent advantage over females by males. If all athletes were on a single league, the males would be well above everyone else with a few females sprinkled in. Because genetics.

I can't read the second article right now, I got work, but I'll get back to finishing the first after I get off. Thanks for being reasonable @QueenCarly
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Callimbmachus posted...

this is the only context in which i've ever seen people be so invested in womens sports

This is such a bullshit argument but I always always bite it.

I'm a fan of womens MMA and combat sports in general. The womens fights can be just as good if not better than the mens.

But let's ignore that for the sake of argument and pretend I don't like any womens sports.

I don't give a shit about Football for example. Male or famale.

So let's say the WPFL says men are allowed to compete in the league and it destroys the WPFL for the female athletes and their fans as all the male atheletes who failed to get into the NFL enter it and take over the league

Me going "Well I don't watch it so who cars LOLOLOLOLOL!" is the height of egotism. The general point of "no you shouldn't do that." remains. The fans who are upset and the people's whose careers are over still exist.

Similarly I don't follow Nascar but if they annouced they were going to put giant Scorpions on the track and fire lasers at the cars as they drive past, I would be opposed to it.

I don't follow Tennis but if they replaced the net with beehives full of angry bees so when you fucked up and hit the hive, bees swarmed out and stung you, I would be opposed to it.

This argument of "Things only matter if you personally are invested in them!" is bizarre.

Your argument has to be that you think people with biological male bodies who identify as women don't have a physical advantage over people with biological female bodies. Your argument can't be "Oh so now you care!?" that's ridiculous.

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Don't post links. Nobody is interested in their minds being changed, they just want to shit on the sources and waste time.

These topics always go the same way every single time.

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UnfairRepresent posted...

Your argument can't be "Oh so now you care!?" that's ridiculous

i didn't posit an argument. ignored

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I swear, I think the only way UR can cum is if hes actively trolling about trans women and sports

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Blue_Dream87 posted...

Nobody is interested in their minds being changed, they just want to shit on the sources and waste time.

These topics always go the same way every single time.

Callimbmachus posted...

i didn't posit an argument. ignored

These back to back are perfect.

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FlameTurtle posted...

I swear, I think the only way UR can cum is if hes actively trolling about trans women and sports

It's not just this, it's anything where he can "to be fair" in favor of bigotry. Without that, he can't even get it up.

People constantly assert that there's 1) Insurmountable, non-reducible differences between male and female anatomy 2) Men ready to claim they are women so they can beat them and 3) Men who have done this and are dominating women

If that's the case, why aren't all women's leagues dominated by former men? Why are your examples limited to the same 5 trans women since 2010?

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legendary_zell posted...

It's not just this, it's anything where he can "to be fair" in favor of bigotry. Without that, he can't even get it up.

"I have no argument so I will insult you."

Thi has nothing to do with "bigotry" just basic science.

Why do you think womens leagues are segregated in the first place?

If it's bigotry, why is there is no oppsition to FtM transgenders competing in "mens leagues."?

All you have are insults and evasions. You have no actual points.

People constantly assert that there's 1) Insurmountable, non-reducible differences between male and female anatomy

Yes

2) Men ready to claim they are women so they can beat them and

No, I don't think that's ever really likely to be a thing.

3) Men who have done this andare dominating women

Transgender women who are not men have competed in female leagues and had massive unfair advantages due to have male physical bodies

If that's the case, why aren't all women's leagues dominated by former men? Why are your examples limited to the same 5 trans women since 2010?

Well putting aside the various transgender bans across the country, you're strawmanning. The issue isn't "IF this happens then a flood of men will pretend to be women and take over the WNBA and Frank Mir will become the womens MMA Champion!"

The issue is transgender athletes will have a huge advantage over their competiton and permenantly effect the sport.

Whether or not the transgenders competing are "Legitimate" is irrelevant to the point, the point is if they should be banned from womens leagues or not

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This whole discourse is lacking because individual sports are so different from each other that the relevant facts differ depending on what the sport is. It's impossible to do it justice with such a broad stroke. You'll probably have different opinions depending on what the sport is and what the relevant advantages are.

So you have to leave it up to individual governing bodies, which are gonna be more or less trans rights depending on location.


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MedeaLysistrata posted...

This whole discourse is lacking because individual sports are so different from each other that the relevant facts differ depending on what the sport is. It's impossible to do it justice with such a broad stroke. You'll probably have different opinions depending on what the sport is and what the relevant advantages are.

So you have to leave it up to individual governing bodies, which are gonna be more or less trans rights depending on location.

I can't think of any physical sport where there is no advantage for biological males.

Even darts and bowling are male dominated

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Government should not regulate whether trans women can participate in women's sports.

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UnfairRepresent posted...

"I have no argument so I will insult you."

Thi has nothing to do with "bigotry" just basic science.

Why do you think womens leagues are segregated in the first place?

If it's bigotry, why is there is no oppsition to FtM transgenders competing in "mens leagues."?

All you have are insults and evasions. You have no actual points.

Yes

No, I don't think that's ever really likely to be a thing.

Transgender women who are not men have competed in female leagues and had massive unfair advantages due to have male physical bodies

Well putting aside the various transgender bans across the country, you're strawmanning. The issue isn't "IF this happens then a flood of men will pretend to be women and take over the WNBA and Frank Mir will become the womens MMA Champion!"

The issue is transgender athletes will have a huge advantage over their competiton and permenantly effect the sport.

Whether or not the transgenders competing are "Legitimate" is irrelevant to the point, the point is if they should be banned from womens leagues or not

Because trans men are never part of the conversation in general. If it's basic science, post the basic science, not anecdotes or sensationalized Youtube videos. The IOC seems to be proceeding based on basic science and allowing trans athletes to compete. That sure as hell doesn't seem to be what you're doing.

Women's leagues were segregated due to a variety of factors ranging from funding, to patriarchy, to Title IX, to yes, concerns over safety. It's not as cut and dried as you're presenting it and I doubt it's something you've ever seriously looked into.

That scenario you're presenting as "not the issue" is exactly what a huge percentage of the people who agree with you think the issue is. It's the most popular argument. That's something you have to deal with by differentiating yourself from that argument.


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Blue_Dream87 posted...

These topics always go the same way every single time.

You're right, it's always gunpla calling anyone who doesn't agree with her a bigot or transphobe, Calypso quoting the most inflammatory post she can find and then disappearing from the topic, and Cyric constantly telling people to do their own research and saying "no that's wrong and it's not real proof". Every single time.

Captain_Qwark posted...

It's obviously an advantage but the question is how much, how consistent is the advantage due to the hormones and shit they have to take, and if the sports world is okay with the advantage.

There are lots of advantages in sports we're okay with. Like how the nba is dominated by tall people. Height is a blatant advantage in that sport.

This is a good and nuance discussion to have. We put boxers in different weight classes because of "fairness", but we have seen many times in the past like boxers with longer arm reach will always tend to dominate even if both fighters are in the same weight class.

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The Year Of Our Jesus Twenty Twenty One and people still dont have Unfair abusive parents are cool if they let you watch anime Represent blocked >____>

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You do not, under any circumstances, have to engage

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averagejoel posted...

how are you defining "biological women" here such that trans women are excluded from the category?

Every person is different. Some biological women may in fact have higher natural levels of testosterone than in some trans women. So, I cannot tell you if a ban/exclusion is necessary or required. Thats the whole debate and I would never claim to know the right answer. But to say biological women are the same as trans women is simply not true. If someone needs to take medication to suppress naturally occurring hormones, then I would say they might possess an advantage a biological woman doesnt have.

Callimbmachus posted...

their stated personal views are that trans people are suffering a delusion that a weak society is indulging them in

they received no penalty for stating as much

then they gloated about it

Thats not true at all. I said if I wanted to insult someone, then I would have done that. And that was never ever my intention with that topic. Its hate speech to publicly state your opinion that gender dysphoria is a mental illness apparently.

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OmegaShinkai posted...

You're right, it's always gunpla calling anyone who doesn't agree with her a bigot or transphobe, Calypso quoting the most inflammatory post she can find and then disappearing from the topic, and Cyric constantly telling people to do their own research and saying "no that's wrong and it's not real proof". Every single time.

Well thank goodness you're here to provide nuance.

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legendary_zell posted...

Because trans men are never part of the conversation in general.

Then it's not bigotry then is it?

If it's basic science, post the basic science, not anecdotes or sensationalized Youtube videos. The IOC seems to be proceeding based on basic science and allowing trans athletes to compete. That sure as hell doesn't seem to be what you're doing.

https://au.sports.yahoo.com/sports/clear-risk-transgender-athletes-facing-ban-from-world-rugby-035031452.html

More likely to be injured from competing agaisnt transgenders

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/amp/ncna1252764

Post hormone therapy transgenders still have advantages over biological women.
https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s40279-020-01389-3
https://www.endocrine-abstracts.org/ea/0041/ea0041EP397

We have shown that under testosterone suppression regimes typically used in clinical settings, and which comfortably exceed the requirements of sports federations for inclusion of transgender women in female sports categories by reducing testosterone levels to well below the upper tolerated limit, evidence for loss of the male performance advantage, established by testosterone at puberty and translating in elite athletes to a 1050% performance advantage, is lacking.

Rather, the data show that strength, lean body mass, muscle size and bone density are only trivially affected. The reductions observed in muscle mass, size, and strength are very small compared to the baseline differences between males and females in these variables, and thus, there are major performance and safety implications in sports where these attributes are competitively significant.

These data significantly undermine the delivery of fairness and safety presumed by the criteria set out in transgender inclusion policies, particularly given the stated prioritization of fairness as an overriding objective (for the IOC).If those policies are intended to preserve fairness, inclusion and the safety of biologically female athletes, sporting organizations may need to reassess their policies regarding inclusion of transgender women.

All the data is there.

Women's leagues were segregated due to a variety of factors ranging from funding, to patriarchy, to Title IX, to yes, concerns over safety. It's not as cut and dried as you're presenting it and I doubt it's something you've ever seriously looked into.

What in the fuck are you on about?

Womens leagues are the opposite of the patriarchy, they only exist to promote women because women can't compete in the non segregated leagues. You know women are allowed to compete in the MLB, NBA, NFL etc right? SOme even had tryouts?

You know there has been intergender Tennis right?

IT absolutely is cut and dry, basic biological science.

That scenario you're presenting as "not the issue" is exactly what a huge percentage of the people who agree with you think the issue is. It's the most popular argument. That's something you have to deal with by differentiating yourself from that argument.

No you're just talking shit again.

The most popular argument is "Think of the safety of the girls!"

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