Poll of the Day > Star Trek is unrealistic.

(+) Yeah! (+)

Everyone would just be addicted to the holodeck and nothing would actually get done.

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starfleet is like the 0.1% most motivated people. like those freaks who love working late. and even they have issues with holodeck addiction e.g. lt barclay

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There's a short Philip K. Dick novel about a group of people addicted to their hologram machines. I mean, it's explored in science fiction fairly often, but that's one that always sticks out in my mind.

BTL in Red Dwarf:)

But It's fairly expensive to have/use a holodeck in the stark Trek Universe, so not everyone can do it. Even average crew members can't use it at will. Just the officers for the most part have unlimited/free use.

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JigsawTDC posted...

There's a short Philip K. Dick novel about a group of people addicted to their hologram machines. I mean, it's explored in science fiction fairly often, but that's one that always sticks out in my mind.

Adventure Time does a good one too

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wolfy42 posted...

But It's fairly expensive to have/use a holodeck in the stark Trek Universe, so not everyone can do it.

I thought Star Trek took place in a universe that had no resource issues?

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I half think that Star Trek is a propaganda piece about how great The Federation is.
I'm curious what the Romulans have to say about The Federation.

Metalsonic66 posted...

Adventure Time does a good one too

And Batman Beyond!

JigsawTDC posted...

And Batman Beyond!

Almost forgot!

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Remember that episode where Barclay had his way with the female crew in the holodeck?

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PunishedOni posted...

starfleet is like the 0.1% most motivated people. like those freaks who love working late. and even they have issues with holodeck addiction e.g. lt barclay

most people on earth probably stand around playing holo-chess all day or something

Well, it's more accurate to say that the crew of TNG's enterprise are the 0.1% "perfect people" group who want to work for the sake of working even if it kills them.

There are a few preachy TNG episodes that talk about how all of humanity is that way now, people don't fear death and just want to keep improving humanity, and old humanity was weird for not thinking the same, but that is not reflected in many other Star Trek shows outside of TNG (even within the same timeline).

The_tall_midget posted...

Remember that episode where Barclay had his way with the female crew in the holodeck?

Remember that episode where Barclay became the smartest human to ever exist?
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TigerTycoon posted...

Well, it's more accurate to say that the crew of TNG's enterprise are the 0.1% "perfect people" group who want to work for the sake of working even if it kills them.

There are a few preachy TNG episodes that talk about how all of humanity is that way now, people don't fear death and just want to keep improving humanity, and old humanity was weird for not thinking the same, but that is not reflected in many other Star Trek shows outside of TNG (even within the same timeline).

Hell, we don't even see the B Crew who has to walk in after a hellscape episode and figure out what the hell they did to the engine.

Zareth posted...

I thought Star Trek took place in a universe that had no resource issues?

Depends on who you're talking to, and when.

Gene Roddenberry's concept of Star Trek was a mostly utopian future where all of the pro-Federation propaganda is true and it's almost all upside with no downside. It's part of why all the action happens when exploring places "where no man has gone before", because back home everything's pretty much paradise. He came up with the idea of matter replication and near-unlimited power mostly to eliminate the sort of fighting over resources that has characterized most of human history. You can't really have idealized space socialists unless you can establish there's literally enough for everyone and no one really benefits from hoarding or monopolizing resources anymore.

But most Star Trek written after Roddenberry died assumes that the future is a lot more like the past, that a lot of that rosy perception is kind of bullshit, and you still have some degree of class distinction, prejudice, and petty squabbling. As much as the Federation likes to think it's the perfect society and compare itself favorably to all the other cultures it encounters, there's a LOT of asshole behavior going on in the Federation as well. At best, it's a great society that just tends to cover up or ignore what flaws it does have (which is a bad thing), at worst, it's borderline dystopian and a lot of the positive spin is deliberate lies to hide the truth. From that point of view, even with near-unlimited resources, you're still going to have class distinctions, with some people on top and others on the bottom. And quality of life will still vary depending on where you fall on the scale.

The real problem is, Gene Roddenberry's view of the future was incredibly idealistic - and unrealistic, as we currently understand human nature, which tends to make it very unrelatable to modern day audiences. We basically project all of our biases, neuroses, and other assorted baggage onto characters from Star Trek, whereas his point of view was basically "Nah, they've completely moved past all that". So aspects of their world that make perfect sense to him don't necessarily make sense to people who don't see things his way.

Roddenberry would have argued that a group like Section 31 literally could not exist in his universe, whereas most modern writers and audiences find it all too likely.



PunishedOni posted...

starfleet is like the 0.1% most motivated people. like those freaks who love working late. and even they have issues with holodeck addiction e.g. lt barclay

most people on earth probably stand around playing holo-chess all day or something

It's been implied in various fan theories that Starfleet/The Federation allocates the majority of their resources to their fleet, so life on a starship is pretty much the best possible life any human can have (which explains why they find it so easy to recruit new members when it seems like a few more redshirts die every week). We almost never see what life on a core planet (like Earth) looks like (even the few shots we see of Earth in TNG are centered around Starfleet Academy), so it's entirely possible that Earth isn't anywhere near as idyllic as life on the Enterprise. Normal civilians may have specific caps for resource management/usage, access to less advanced tech, and generally be required to work for their place in society (just like most human societies).

Starfleet mostly appears to be an ideal socialist society ("From each according to their ability, to each according to their needs") because the crew of any given ship are in a pseudo-military hierarchy that requires them to fulfill specific duties - unrestricted access to replication, holo-tech, and other advanced benefits are just perks of the job. They're the best of the best, expected to constantly do their best - so they're motivated/rewarded by being given the best in return. They're not necessarily being paid for their service, as much as they're provided with all of the sorts of things you'd ever want to buy with money anyway.

It would be like trying to judge modern day society by only looking at how the top 1% of the 1% live. You might come to the conclusion that we live in a perfect capitalist society... at least until you go compare the bottom 1% living in third-world nations.
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Again, even on the starships, there are limited number of holodecks and you see only the officers using them in general. in addition on DS9 Quark etc would rent them out, and they were expensive, so you can see that they are not available to anyone. Even the captain etc doesn't have his own holodeck to use anytime he wants.

And these are starships, so it makes sense that such resources would be even more in demand and used less often on actual earth etc (since the need for a holodeck on a space ship is obviously far greater).

Replicators etc do make most things easy to obtain but they are still powered by dylithian crystals or whatever, which are a valuable commodity, so yeah, even on earth there are still resource problems and restrictions on what you can use etc.

In the newest star trek show, the universe basically had a massive explosion type thing with warp drives or something and I think the Federation basically went poof (didn't watch the last season past the first few episodes but that was the gist I got). It's obviously at that point in time that resources are in short supply and even though technology has advanced the average person certainly isn't living in a eutopia at that point.

Anyway Star Trek seems to be one of the few futuristic shows where VR and holodecks etc have not caused the masses to become addicted etc, most others at least have it treated like a drug.

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ParanoidObsessive posted...

Roddenberry would have argued that a group like Section 31 literally could not exist in his universe, whereas most modern writers and audiences find it all too likely.

I honestly think that Section 31 would be the most interesting group to follow in Star Trek.
Mostly because I want to imagine what war crimes look like when you can teleport bees into someone's head, or planet-wide stun people.

wolfy42 posted...

Again, even on the starships, there are limited number of holodecks and you see only the officers using them in general.

That's because the officers are the main characters, for the most part. It's generally implied that everyone on the ship gets at least some time in the holodeck. It's why you basically have to schedule your appointment rather than just stroll in whenever.

Again, our view of the universe is essentially warped because we're seeing a vast setting through a pinhole. Nearly every story we see is about one of a dozen or so people out of a crew of nearly 1000, on what is essentially one of the most elite flagships of the entire fleet, on their most "exciting" days (we don't get an entire episode to that one time Geordi La Forge took three days off to recover from space food poisoning where he spends most of the time on the toilet, or episodes where it takes them a week to get from one place to another and literally nothing else happens).

We never really see the show from the perspective of outsiders. Change your perspective and the entire context of the setting could change radically.
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It's spelled out in Season 2 of TNG at that only a handful of new members join Starfleet every year. There's around 10'000 (not to scale) federation starbases and not all hold entrance exams and only ONE student graduates every year... and that graduation is only entrance to Starfleet Academy

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I'd hate to be the person who has to clean the holodecks.

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Lokarin posted...

It's spelled out in Season 2 of TNG at that only a handful of new members join Starfleet every year. There's around 10'000 (not to scale) federation starbases and not all hold entrance exams and only ONE student graduates every year... and that graduation is only entrance to Starfleet Academy

That's Starfleet Academy, which is like West Point or Annapolis. Anyone can still walk into the local recruiting office and join Starfleet as enlisted. Like Senior Chief Petty Officer Miles O'Brien.

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Most movies are unrealistic. Hollywood make anything up it wants to and have it end anyway they want to.

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The_tall_midget posted...

Remember that episode where Barclay had his way with the female crew in the holodeck?

TigerTycoon posted...

Remember that episode where Barclay became the smartest human to ever exist?

Speaking of Barclay, I would also like to point out that the TNG enterprise crew ostracized and made fun of Barclay for having social anxiety disorder, to the point where even the senior staff wanted him fired for being annoying to deal with.

This is from the supposed advanced humans who had rid themselves of discrimination.
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TigerTycoon posted...

This is from the supposed advanced humans who had rid themselves of discrimination

A lot of Star Trek falls into the "Methinks thou doth protest too much" sort of vein, even based on the standards of the time period it was made (rather than trying to judge it by the moral standards of decades later).

Like, they'll talk up how they're completely beyond prejudice or how they've totally done away with greed and money, but then you'll see a later episode where they're totally doing that thing they previously condemned as being primitive or something they've "moved past as a culture".

Again, it's what makes it so easy to recontextualize a lot of the "The Federation is so advanced and enlightened!" talk into ideological propaganda. They're really hypocritical way too often.



And that's not even getting into the thing that a lot of other people point out - namely, that it sometimes seems like literally no one in the Federation has advanced art or culture at all for the last few hundred years, with all the art and music or classic literature they ever talk about being stuff that's at least a hundred years or so old to us. About the most "modern" thing we ever see anyone ever engage in in the holodeck is on Voyager, where Paris is doing his 1930s sci-fi space opera thing, or Picard doing his whole film noir detective stuff. Everyone else seems to go back even farther (Sherlock Holmes, Shakespeare, Robin Hood), and most music seems to be older classical. We never get to see a 2400 AD version of Lady Gaga or The Weekend.
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ParanoidObsessive posted...

They're really hypocritical way too often.

That is actually denounced pretty often during DS9.

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I don't think it's fair to reference DS9 for the gene roddenberry style star trek.
It's like asking what Picard from the picard show would do if he was in TNG, it's a very different view on everything.

They have the holodeck yet the entire crew of the Enterprise became addicted to what amounts to the ball in cup game.
https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/the_game_hd_381.jpg

The transporters de-aged Dr. Pulaski, created a duplicate Will Riker, and held Scotty in stasis for 75 years. What do they needs a ships doctor for? If anyone is injured or dies on an away mission just reset them.

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SKARDAVNELNATE posted...

They have the holodeck yet the entire crew of the Enterprise became addicted to what amounts to the ball in cup game.

To be fair, it was implied there was at least some sort of mind control going on in that one. The actual game itself didn't matter, except as a diversion to what it was really doing.
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ParanoidObsessive posted...

To be fair, it was implied there was at least some sort of mind control going on in that one. The actual game itself didn't matter, except as a diversion to what it was really doing.

Yes it was effecting the neurotransmitters evey time they advanced to the next level. But think about this, they produced more of the devices with the replicators. The neurotransmitter influence wasn't a protected feature like replicating weapons or anything stronger than synthahol. They just never take advantage of it.

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TNG isn't an accurate representation of Federation life.

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It would probably be like a video game addiction.

wolfy42 posted...

Again, even on the starships, there are limited number of holodecks and you see only the officers using them in general. in addition on DS9 Quark etc would rent them out, and they were expensive, so you can see that they are not available to anyone. Even the captain etc doesn't have his own holodeck to use anytime he wants.

And these are starships, so it makes sense that such resources would be even more in demand and used less often on actual earth etc (since the need for a holodeck on a space ship is obviously far greater).

Replicators etc do make most things easy to obtain but they are still powered by dylithian crystals or whatever, which are a valuable commodity, so yeah, even on earth there are still resource problems and restrictions on what you can use etc.

In the newest star trek show, the universe basically had a massive explosion type thing with warp drives or something and I think the Federation basically went poof (didn't watch the last season past the first few episodes but that was the gist I got). It's obviously at that point in time that resources are in short supply and even though technology has advanced the average person certainly isn't living in a eutopia at that point.

Anyway Star Trek seems to be one of the few futuristic shows where VR and holodecks etc have not caused the masses to become addicted etc, most others at least have it treated like a drug.

That just sounds like they ran out of ideas since it makes no sense.

ParanoidObsessive posted...

That's because the officers are the main characters, for the most part. It's generally implied that everyone on the ship gets at least some time in the holodeck. It's why you basically have to schedule your appointment rather than just stroll in whenever.

Again, our view of the universe is essentially warped because we're seeing a vast setting through a pinhole. Nearly every story we see is about one of a dozen or so people out of a crew of nearly 1000, on what is essentially one of the most elite flagships of the entire fleet, on their most "exciting" days (we don't get an entire episode to that one time Geordi La Forge took three days off to recover from space food poisoning where he spends most of the time on the toilet, or episodes where it takes them a week to get from one place to another and literally nothing else happens).

We never really see the show from the perspective of outsiders. Change your perspective and the entire context of the setting could change radically.

We should have.

ParanoidObsessive posted...

A lot of Star Trek falls into the "Methinks thou doth protest too much" sort of vein, even based on the standards of the time period it was made (rather than trying to judge it by the moral standards of decades later).

Like, they'll talk up how they're completely beyond prejudice or how they've totally done away with greed and money, but then you'll see a later episode where they're totally doing that thing they previously condemned as being primitive or something they've "moved past as a culture".

Again, it's what makes it so easy to recontextualize a lot of the "The Federation is so advanced and enlightened!" talk into ideological propaganda. They're really hypocritical way too often.

And that's not even getting into the thing that a lot of other people point out - namely, that it sometimes seems like literally no one in the Federation has advanced art or culture at all for the last few hundred years, with all the art and music or classic literature they ever talk about being stuff that's at least a hundred years or so old to us. About the most "modern" thing we ever see anyone ever engage in in the holodeck is on Voyager, where Paris is doing his 1930s sci-fi space opera thing, or Picard doing his whole film noir detective stuff. Everyone else seems to go back even farther (Sherlock Holmes, Shakespeare, Robin Hood), and most music seems to be older classical. We never get to see a 2400 AD version of Lady Gaga or The Weekend.

That would be because the writers didn't want to have to make up entire genres of new fiction or make up a hot about a "modern" movie.
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SKARDAVNELNATE posted...

They have the holodeck yet the entire crew of the Enterprise became addicted to what amounts to the ball in cup game.

What about Dabo? It's really dumb.

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captpackrat posted...

I'd hate to be the person who has to clean the holodecks.

It just gets recycled into the replicator. Protein is protein.....

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I convert matter into energy continuously. The real trick is converting energy into matter.

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The_tall_midget posted...

What about Dabo? It's really dumb.

Dabo is an interesting game that combines craps and roulette (even though you can't see the dice in the center... and it's probably not literal dice but more of just a computer readout)

The idea is that you're bidding on a marketplace but there's no way to know what will happen to the stock... since once a stock starts climbing it tends to continue to climb, your victory window gets larger as you win, but it also requires you continue to rebid to ride that wave and proportionately the payout is lower since the winning stock takes up a larger portion of the wheel... this means successive victories are very profitable, and other players can bid on or against (similar to craps); this is why everyone cheers when you get DAAABOOOOO!!!!

The winning strategy to get the best from the house edge, ironically, is to not ride the wave, but to make a shrewd investment on a middling low stock (a smaller section of the wheel), hope you win, and then quit. The only spot on the wheel with 1:1 house odds is when a stock literally only has a single tile and you are playing only with yourself.

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I'm surprised no one has made a video game of it since it is so interesting!

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Now, their version of poker... ain't NO ONE knows how that's played

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Revelation34 posted...

It would probably be like a video game addiction.

That just sounds like they ran out of ideas since it makes no sense.

We should have.

That would be because the writers didn't want to have to make up entire genres of new fiction or make up a hot about a "modern" movie.

most modern books are shit
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