Current Events > Demi Lovato: Gender reveal parties are transphobic.

(+) Yeah! (+)

CyricZ posted...

I'm not talking about just walking up and meeting a random adult trans person.

I'm talking about a person in an infant child's life (parent, grandparent, aunt/uncle, other relation, neighbor, etc.) who has it in their mind that the child they see before them is a boy or a girl, and the things that they can surround that child with to reinforce that assumption within themselves, and the years they held on to that assumption as the child grows, and what it would mean for that person (and how they would treat the child) if they found out that the child's gender was not what they thought.

No no, he saw a trans person once, he understands the trans experience better than anyone.

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Flockaveli posted...

Whens the last time she did something important? Her opinion has no value anymore.

okay timeout sidebar here what the fuck
this implies that because she made songs that got pop radio airplay that her opinion did have value and as soon as that stopped then the value ended
what

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FlameTurtle posted...

No no, he saw a trans person once, he understands the trans experience better than anyone.

The irony is that what you quoted isnt talking about the trans persons perspective. So humorously, in context, my experiences would be more relevant.

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Okay you flat out admit you don't know the science, so this is literally just your own personal bias that you think a child growing up "without any identity" would be more detrimental.

Let's start with the fact that "without any identity" is an incorrect assumption. Children develop a sense of self independent of their gender identity. They know they exist in the world. That's identity that isn't tied to their gender.

So are you angry at me, or angry at your own lack of knowledge on the subject?

cuttin_in_farm posted...

Whats your opinion on names for newborns?

Name your kid whatever you want. Some will grow up and choose a name they like for themselves irrespective of what they were named at birth anyway. For legal purposes, that's something that's unavoidable, but names are impermanent anyway.

cuttin_in_farm posted...

Youre describing gay people. What precautions do gay people have to defend from being not what their parents wanted or expected?

Uh none, really. If you'd like to champion that children shouldn't be enforced to find attraction in the opposite sex, be my guest and more power to you. I'll be over here doing similarly with gender identity.

Gender reveal parties arent the problem. Nor how theyre treated. Shitty parents are.

And what makes a shitty parent? Does someone wake up and say "I'm going to be a shitty parent to my child"? Or does a parent become shitty because of their incorrect expectations about what being a parent is? Something that might have come from their own upbringing and experiences? Certain biases?

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LivingLegend posted...

Demi Lovato is right.

Gender is not your biological sex at birth.

trans people should learn the art of not giving a fuck imo, goes a long way

As someone who has trans friends, friends with trans kids, and is against discrimination in general, I don't think gender reveal parties are really a necessary battleground.

It's not like it's possible in the womb to make the connection that the psychology isn't going to line up with the physiology, at least with today's technology.

Let the expectant parent(s) have their fun.

Edit to add a few points:

If it's simply a deal of semantics, people need to get past it. I mean we see "defund the police" thrown around, and the movement itself is pretty solid, but the slogan is bad messaging.

On top of all that, parents, type-of-genitalia-reveal-party or not, need to maintain a sense of fluidity in their ability to accept that their child is probably not going to be, to a 'T', what they might imagine from day one.

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Goldenguy posted...

parents, type-of-genitalia-reveal-party or not, need to maintain a sense of fluidity in their ability to accept that their child is probably not going to be, to a 'T', what they might imagine from day one.

Well yeah that's kind of what I've been talking about this entire topic. No this may not be a "necessary battleground", but it's one cog in the gender enforcement machine, as it were.

Then again, if it weren't necessary why are people working so hard to defend it?

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its obviously fine to assign a gender at birth while keeping an open mind and educating them about the subject, binary genders is not inherently wrong, its the rejection of non conforming that is wrong

the same way its fine to assume someone is heterosexual by default given its the more likely scenario, adjust when shown otherwise

otherwise we should stop serving animal products to anyone in the unlikely scenario that theyre vegans

CyricZ posted...

Then again, if it weren't necessary why are people working so hard to defend it?

People are not defending gender reveal parties, they are disputing your ridiculous claim that it is inherently transphobic to assume that the vastly more likely scenario is the one that's going to happen.

gunplagirl posted...

Hard to ignore when the state of California has smoke from the wildfire reaching hundreds of miles away. Hard to ignore when a neighbor blows himself up making a pipe bomb, for that matter.

Wow, 2 examples of bad things happening out of the thousands of gender reveal parties that happen a year. Still no explanation of how they're transphobic though...

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gmanthebest posted...

Wow, 2 examples of bad things happening out of the thousands of gender reveal parties that happen a year. Still no explanation of how they're transphobic though...

They're not.

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Tenlaar posted...

they are disputing your ridiculous claim that it is inherently transphobic to assume that the vastly more likely scenario is the one that's going to happen.

Are they though?

Has anyone had a proper dispute apart from "nuh uh"?

Or is the best you've got "being trans is unlikely, so it's not".

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CyricZ posted...

Are they though?

Has anyone had a proper dispute apart from "nuh uh"?

Or is the best you've got "being trans is unlikely, so it's not".

well I mean anybody smart would go with the more likely scenario obviously...?

will you avoid feeding your child strawberries until he's old enough to buy his own food because you're scared he might be allergic?

ROOTFayth posted...

well I mean anybody smart would go with the more likely scenario obviously...?

will you avoid feeding your child strawberries until he's old enough to buy his own food because you're scared he might be allergic?

https://www.aaaai.org/conditions-and-treatments/library
/allergy-library/prevention-of-allergies-and-asthma-in-children

I would follow the recommended guidelines on introducing my children to foods that they might be allergic to rather than just assume they won't be.

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gender reveal parties are dumb and my statement has nothing to do with trans people. i just think its dumb.

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CyricZ posted...

Are they though?

Has anyone had a proper dispute apart from "nuh uh"?

Or is the best you've got "being trans is unlikely, so it's not".

I mean, all that you've come up with is "there's an incredibly small chance that they could end up being transgender so it's transphobic not to treat them that way before they're even born" so I don't know why you're expecting some extraordinary effort on the part of other people.

Tenlaar posted...

I mean, all that you've come up with is "there's an incredibly small chance that they could end up being transgender so it's transphobic not to treat them that way before they're even born" so I don't know why you're expecting some extraordinary effort on the part of other people.

There's a difference between "assuming they're transgender" and "not making an assumption one way or the other". I'm not expecting people to assume their child is transgender.

I fully recognize that this is a "little thing" and I've said as such more than once in this topic. And saying the concept is transphobic doesn't mean that I want to burn people at the stake for it.

I'm challenging people to recognize the things in our lives that we think are otherwise "normal", but have elements of gender enforcement.

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Use some kind of other trivial throw-away term to throw a party for a kid moving forward. Let the SJWs win these small fights.

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CyricZ posted...

There's a difference between "assuming they're transgender" and "not making an assumption one way or the other". I'm not expecting people to assume their child is transgender.

I fully recognize that this is a "little thing" and I've said as such more than once in this topic. And saying the concept is transphobic doesn't mean that I want to burn people at the stake for it.

I'm challenging people to recognize the things in our lives that we think are otherwise "normal", but have elements of gender enforcement.

You're failing at it

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CyricZ posted...

There's a difference between "assuming they're transgender" and "not making an assumption one way or the other". I'm not expecting people to assume their child is transgender.

You are expecting people to assume that their child will not fall into the overwhelmingly more frequent male = man or female = woman gender expressions. So yet again, it is not transphobic to assume that the thing that happens 99 out of 100 times is what's going to happen.

Hinakuluiau posted...

they also seem to be popular among wealthier white suburban couples or rural white couples, both of which tend to lean towards conservative values

As opposed to whom? As if blacks, hispanics, and working class whites are famous for their LGBT support...

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She sounds pretty stupid but would still hit it
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CyricZ posted...

Harmful worldviews all start somewhere. They don't spring out of the aether full formed. A bunch of little things in life reinforce them even if they're seemingly innocuous. In this case, the nuance itself is the key.

I'm not saying people who do this will definitely abuse their child. I'm saying this, along with a host of other gender-based traditions, contributes to a "traditional" world view with regards to gender, simply by nature of the fact that it declares a child's gender before the child is born. "It's a boy. Buy us boy presents."

You aren't saying that they will definitely abuse their child, but every stance you've taken only makes sense if you assume the child is going to be abused. Yes nuance is the key yet you're still making the leap of "hosting a party for a baby" to "transphobic". It really seems like your view of the world has no room for anything else to happen other than what you predict. As if every host of every gender reveal party is equally as traditional, conservative, transphobic, and unwilling to change, puts expectations on a baby, and DEMANDS their guests be too. "Buy us boy presents". AND that when that kid grows up, they are going to be miserable, without acceptance, and shunned away from home. You truly believe that you can fully predict a child's entire life and relation with their parents, across several thousand parties?

What about parents that introduce a kid to a hobby or job? A lot of kids sort of just take up the mantle of their parents' business, or sometimes parents teach their kids something they know how to do like music or sports or whatnot. Are those parents horrible parents because they are "forcing" their kid to be something they might not truly be? Again, I want to be really clear, it is possible for a dad to teach their son how to play guitar, the son tries it, grows out of it and does something else, and the dad STILL accepts him!

CyricZ posted...

I'm challenging people to recognize the things in our lives that we think are otherwise "normal", but have elements of gender enforcement.

If you want to fight the good fight, pick fights that are actually the result of things bubbling over instead of just looking to validate your worldview of what people are worth hating and what people aren't.

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Master Kazuya posted...

If you want to fight the good fight, pick fights that are actually the result of things bubbling over instead of just looking to validate your worldview of what people are worth hating and what people aren't.

So you're saying "wait until things get actually abusive" before trying to challenge people on gendered behaviors?

EDIT: There also seems to be a misconception that in saying something is "transphobic" that means I'm calling everyone a bigot.

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Flockaveli posted...

Whens the last time she did something important? Her opinion has no value anymore.

My feelings about the topic aside, invalidating opinions due to popularity isnt the best idea

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CyricZ posted...

https://www.aaaai.org/conditions-and-treatments/library
/allergy-library/prevention-of-allergies-and-asthma-in-children

I would follow the recommended guidelines on introducing my children to foods that they might be allergic to rather than just assume they won't be.

jesus, talk about missing the point

ROOTFayth posted...

jesus, talk about missing the point

It's your analogy. If it doesn't hold up, make a better one.

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CyricZ posted...

It's your analogy. If it doesn't hold up, make a better one.

I dunno mate, you could also take a class on statistics

ROOTFayth posted...

I dunno mate, you could also take a class on statistics

So it goes back to "because it's unlikely don't worry about it"?

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Hahahahahahahahaha

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CyricZ posted...

So it goes back to "because it's unlikely don't worry about it"?

not exactly what I said, because its unlikely start with the default settings and modify them as you see fit

get it?

ROOTFayth posted...

not exactly what I said, because its unlikely start with the default settings and modify them as you see fit

get it?

So cisgender is "default"?

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CyricZ posted...

So cisgender is "default"?

Lol
It is the overwhelming statistical probability
If it's not default then let's split some hairs

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CyricZ posted...

So you're saying "wait until things get actually abusive" before trying to challenge people on gendered behaviors?

EDIT: There also seems to be a misconception that in saying something is "transphobic" that means I'm calling everyone a bigot.

Anything to avoid any amount of reflection

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gunplagirl posted...

making those subtle steps to make it clear we're considered in a negative light?

That's not a thing that happens with gender reveal parties. Thinking it to be so is searching for specters of transphobia where they don't exist. You'll be jumping at every shadow looking for some implied connection. Depending on how it's handled, people around you might be annoyed and that will play into a paranoia scenario.

If the concern is for the child then there is no reason to be concerned at that point. A child doesn't really form their sense of self as a toddler. By then they'll not just have names and clothing and whatnot, but the moment they attend a school they'll be bombarded with the world as it is. But that's an entirely separate conversation.

If the concern is about perceiving the parents as transphobic, that's missing the mark. As has been mentioned in this topic, it's the parents seeking attention, hoping for gifts from friends and family to subsidize the expenses of raising a child, and an excuse to form and maintain social connections. It isn't some cabal meeting to slight transgendered people.

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I wouldn't suggest that this kind of gender enforcement was being done maliciously. Like I've said, people view it as a tradition without thinking about the implications.

Now if having been explained to you the implications, you still think "well now I'm DEFINITELY gonna have a gender reveal party", that's where we drift towards malice.

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what exactly are those implications?

ROOTFayth posted...

what exactly are those implications?

The way you said that implies youre a really open minded person and that Im not at all being sarcastic.

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ROOTFayth posted...

what exactly are those implications?

That the child might not be the gender you told God and country and Facebook they were in your gender reveal party.

Like I said earlier, the potential for something like this:
CyricZ posted...

"We had a gender reveal party. We got you boy presents. We raised you as a boy. All our friends and family know you as a boy. Now you're telling us you're a girl? After all we invested in you being a boy?"

I know trans people whose family couldn't deal with that. There's mockery, fights, abuse, disownment. And it can be parents, extended family, others associated with the child.

Leaving the gender reveal party as a relic of the past helps break down that concept of gender enforcement.

...In addition to saving acres of forest land.

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CyricZ posted...

I know trans people whose family couldn't deal with that. There's mockery, fights, abuse, disownment.

hey its me

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Demi Lovato is an idiot. Leave people alone if they want to have parties.

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According to the logic of some of the posters in this thread over 99% of the human population is transphobic.

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Patty_Fleur posted...

Demi Lovato is an idiot. Leave people alone if they want to have parties.

Is sharing an opinion preventing them from having their stupid fucking parties?

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Gamerguymass posted...

over 99% of the human population is transphobic

Is over 99% of the human population having gender reveal parties? Near as I can tell, folks are claiming it's a white Western thing.

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CyricZ posted...

Leaving the gender reveal party as a relic of the past helps break down that concept of gender enforcement.

you don't even need to kill them completely (though, please everyone, no more over-extravagant ones). just... put them off for a few years. what is the actual harm in waiting until you're told instead of assuming?

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No fucking fireworks allowed in your dumbass party, Californians. Youre not competent enough to not burn the whole state down.

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hockeybub89 posted...

Is sharing an opinion preventing them from having their stupid fucking parties?

No but the opinions are still annoying AF
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Medussa posted...

you don't even need to kill them completely (though, please everyone, no more over-extravagant ones). just... put them off for a few years. what is the actual harm in waiting until you're told instead of assuming?

It's not for the children, they are for the expectant parents who are (hopefully) happy and excited about their child to be.

Medussa posted...

you don't even need to kill them completely (though, please everyone, no more over-extravagant ones). just... put them off for a few years. what is the actual harm in waiting until you're told instead of assuming?

"What? Wait three years for my child to tell me they're a boy or girl and then have a lavish explosive forest-destroying party over it? Well that's just WEIRD."

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CyricZ posted...

have a lavish explosive forest-destroying party

It's really telling how you can't stop doing this.