Current Events > Demi Lovato: Gender reveal parties are transphobic.

(+) Yeah! (+)

7 pages long. I wonder how many posters got warned

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Tenlaar posted...

It's not for the children, they are for the expectant parents who are (hopefully) happy and excited about their child to be.

so celebrate that, and then celebrate Gender day later, too? oh look, i just made up a third "give me shit for my crotchspawn" day.

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"The idea that sex is based on genitalia is inconsistent with science."

-Demi Lovato


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MI4 REAL posted...

"The idea that sex is based on genitalia is inconsistent with science."

-Demi Lovato

yea shes wrong, its also boobs

Tenlaar posted...

It's really telling how you can't stop doing this.

Pray tell then.

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CyricZ posted...

Pray tell then.

You can't stop yourself from saying things meant to paint those who have gender reveal parties as terrible and destructive people, such as the insistence on painting the extremely rare instances of something bad happening as some normal part of it. What more do you need pointed out?

CyricZ posted...

So you're saying "wait until things get actually abusive" before trying to challenge people on gendered behaviors?

No, it's stop assuming everything leads to abuse if there isn't abuse happening. Stop assuming that people have the worst intentions in areas where you have no idea. Realize that there is nuance to life and not every instance of something will terraform into the worst possible outcome of that.

Ironically people on opposite side of your fence do the same thing. They take an action, strip nuance, and assume the worst.

I dislike how you are free to throw out questions to affirm your worldview but refuse to answer any questions that challenge your view. It's very cherry picking behavior and it keeps the argument in your pocket disingenuously.

CyricZ posted...

I'm calling everyone a bigot.

You don't have to directly say it. The way you speak is like "if you disagree with me, you will eventually find out you are a bigot" and it's not fair to virtue signal like that. If you are of the opinion that gender reveal parties are transphobic, don't throw any and don't attend any. But you are really going far and wide to try to make everyone be like "see? If you DONT see it this way, you are part of the problem". You don't have to literally say the words "I think you are all bigots" for people to get that idea.

Change starts with you and doing things that matter to you. If protesting these parties is what makes you think you're contributing to the cause, go do that and stop assuming the worst of everyone who isn't you.

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As a general rule, anyone who describes things as "transphobic" should not be taken seriously.

There are genuine problems out there, do not fucking get me wrong on that, but those problems aren't what most people ranting about "transphobia" online are actually interested in talking about.

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LivingLegend posted...

Again..

DEMI LOVATO IS RIGHT.

GENDER REVEAL PARTIES ARE WRONG BECAUSE THEY ARE TRANSPHOBIC.

YOUR GENDER IS NOT DETERMINED BY YOUR BIOLOGICAL SEX.

I mean if you want to bet against me Ill bet on the biological sex of any newborn being its gender, ill even give you 10:1 odds

Scorsese2002 posted...

No but the opinions are still annoying AF

So are basic bitch ass yuppie parents

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Tenlaar posted...

You can't stop yourself from saying things meant to paint those who have gender reveal parties as terrible and destructive people

I am literally just trying to add some levity to this. I'd like to think you know me well enough by now that I don't honestly believe every single gender reveal party results in destruction.

There are dozens of people in this topic making fun of that part of it. Are you suggesting this is unfair or hurtful? If so then I'll reel it in and focus on the actual discussion.

Master Kazuya posted...

You don't have to directly say it. The way you speak is like "if you disagree with me, you will eventually find out you are a bigot"

And you're saying that I have a problem with making assumptions. I haven't once said anything like that. This is entirely your projecting.

You'll note I haven't even once called a person a transphobe in this topic. I had one message insinuating it early on and it was in response to messages that are now modded.

I'm not looking to point fingers and label people. I'm looking to discuss the topic.

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LivingLegend posted...

Again..

DEMI LOVATO IS RIGHT.

GENDER REVEAL PARTIES ARE WRONG BECAUSE THEY ARE TRANSPHOBIC.

YOUR GENDER IS NOT DETERMINED BY YOUR BIOLOGICAL SEX.

It is when you're a newborn.

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CyricZ posted...

Wait three years for my child to tell me they're a boy or girl

yikes


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CyricZ posted...

That the child might not be the gender you told God and country and Facebook they were in your gender reveal party.

Like I said earlier, the potential for something like this:

I know trans people whose family couldn't deal with that. There's mockery, fights, abuse, disownment. And it can be parents, extended family, others associated with the child.

Leaving the gender reveal party as a relic of the past helps break down that concept of gender enforcement.

...In addition to saving acres of forest land.

I mean, the assholes who would say that to their kid would say it regardless of a gender reveal party, so that's not a real complaint against the parties.

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Its funny how topics like these are always a guaranteed 500 posts

people having a gender at birth isn't a problem CyricZ, the problem is trans people being denied their rights, as soon as people accept that transgender are a thing and are not to be treated differently than the rest then there is no issue with calling a boy a boy and a girl a girl at birth

CyricZ posted...

And you're saying that I have a problem with making assumptions. I haven't once said anything like that. This is entirely your projecting.

The difference between me assuming something about you and you assuming something about the entirety of humans/Americans/party throwers is that I have direct information that pertains to my direct assumption. I have seen what you wrote, what you reply with, and what you choose not to reply to.

And if you aren't doing stuff like that and adjust, such as reeling the "these parties are bad because 1 of them burned down a forest" comments back like you've said, and the other actual important part, actually following through with it, guess what, my assumption will change. It is not like an assumption can't be changed. I can assume things are one way, you can tell me it's not, and I will adjust accordingly. hinthint

Are you in favor of dosing a child hormones based on what the child says about themselves?

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Master Kazuya posted...

Are you in favor of dosing a child hormones based on what the child says about themselves?

If a child is transgender, I defer to the science of starting puberty blockers at the onset of puberty and HRT once it's permitted.

Are there any other pressing questions of yours you believe I'm not answering?

EDIT: Oh and I mentioned earlier there are some people in this topic that I have on ignore, so if you think I'm not responding to them out of dodging questions, it's more likely that they're ignored and I'm not seeing them.

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CyricZ posted...

There are dozens of people in this topic making fun of that part of it. Are you suggesting this is unfair or hurtful? If so then I'll reel it in and focus on the actual discussion.

I'm suggesting that you, along with those others, being unable to resist the temptation to respond to actual points by making jokes about freak accidents that can and have happened at any number of other kinds of gatherings is very hindering to any actual discussion.

You have also used it to deflect rather than actually address the point that in literally 98 or more out of 100 gender reveal parties the child is going to end up with no later identity conflict. It's not offensive to assume that somebody falls within a massive statistical majority until other information is presented. Any offense there comes after being informed that it's wrong.

lol putting people on ignore because they have a different pov, epitome of snowflakeness

When you're right about a child's gender more than 99% of the time, is it really all that wrong for the to-be parents to hold a party to find out along with friends (dangerous stunts notwithstanding)?

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Tenlaar posted...

You have also used it to deflect rather than actually address the point that in literally 98 or more out of 100 gender reveal parties the child is going to end up with no later identity conflict.

Mostly because I don't disagree with that. It's a fact that it's a very low amount of people, and I don't dispute it.

What I disagree with is the idea that because something can negatively affect only a statistically small amount of people, then it's fine to keep it within our traditions. I just don't think it's a very good excuse.

Add to that the idea that I don't feel, and no one's convinced me otherwise, that gender reveal parties are an essential element to the gestation festivities.

Put those two factors together, and I think I don't disagree with the initial Instagram post.

If for no other reason than shifting the societal Overton Window on the subject of gender.

Like have other pregnancy-related parties if you want. Just lay off the gender enforcement.

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ROOTFayth posted...

lol putting people on ignore because they have a different pov, epitome of snowflakeness

I put people on ignore when they become abusive, annoying, or otherwise worthless to engage with because they make a mockery of the concept of argument.

It's a handy feature for someone who has been here as long as I have.

Do you think you "get points" on this argument for shaming me in using it?

Paragon21XX posted...

When you're right about a child's gender more than 99% of the time, is it really all that wrong for the to-be parents to hold a party to find out along with friends (dangerous stunts notwithstanding)?

I don't disagree that for most parents it won't matter. It's just for the small amount that do.

One of the arguments I hear all too often on the subject of transgender people in general is that there are so few of them, so "what does it really matter" and "is it really so important". And such an attitude can be made to excuse a lot of things. I just think it's making excuses.

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hahahahahahha

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CyricZ posted...

Mostly because I don't disagree with that. It's a fact that it's a very low amount of people, and I don't dispute it.

What I disagree with is the idea that because something can negatively affect only a statistically small amount of people, then it's fine to keep it within our traditions. I just don't think it's a very good excuse.

should we stop celebrating christmas? or I dunno is it homophobic to celebrate your wedding with your heteronormative parner?

like dude get real, theres alwats going to be someone, somewhere who us offended about something, we wont stop living to protect said person

and anyway you have not shown in any way, shape or form how a gender reveal party could harm the newborn child

ROOTFayth posted...

and anyway you have not shown in any way, shape or form how a gender reveal party could harm the newborn child

Because no one's making that argument.

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Damn_Underscore posted...

This sounds like something someone would say to mock people who support transgender rights.

You'd be surprised at how often dumb claims like these do.

Like when people were saying 'blind playthrough' was offensive to blind people or...whatever.
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Gender reveal parties are stupid .

But they are not transphobic. .

I am not going to hold off calling my kid their assumed sex because there is a .5 chance of them being transexual. If we find that out later GREAT, we can have a coming out party. But we should not assumed the kid is gnerderless until it says something.

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Stop the hate

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CyricZ posted...

Put those two factors together, and I think I don't disagree with the initial Instagram post.

I appreciate you being in more of a communicative mindset, at least with me. I think this quoted part is where the confusion is happening. I too don't think gender reveal parties should be mandatory. I also don't think that it's okay to completely ignore a small minority's rights just because they are a minority. However, the line of A to B, from giving a newborn a parental assigned 'gender'(whole other topic) to diminishing trans rights is a very significant jump in logic. If the Facebook invite was like, "Boy or girl reveal party! And yes, they can ONLY be a boy or girl, forever, and you must get the most stereotypical boy or girl gifts that you can think of", I would have issue with that. Those are nutty people. You realize the intent behind it. But assuming that gender reveal parties inherently have this subtext behind them seems false.

Who someone truly is is a very deep and abstract topic. A lot of people don't ever find their dream careers. Some people settle that what they've been doing for a while must be their dream. People switch things all the time, their careers, their partners, their identity, their morals, and so forth.

The act of assigning a newborn a gender based on its sex is just an assignment for the sake of it in the grand scheme. It is completely possible that this person will transition later in life. And when they do, the rights they have obtained or lost should absolutely be examined and be treated fairly. But the very pre pre pre Alpha stage, of just the gender reveal party, is so far removed from the later stages that it just seems such a shot in the dark to attack this.

Maybe you're taking the implications of a gender reveal party too far? They aren't too serious. They're just like anything else, a reason to get together and drink.

Just a sidenote, keep in mind children do not have complete autonomy, hence why they are children. Their parents are in charge of what food they can eat, discipline, rewards, and so forth. Let alone a baby. No baby deserves abuse which is obvious. However, parents acting in their own way to foster a good connection with the baby are not deeply harming it and offending rights. It is totally possible that they could be shitty parents and reject their kid's identity, but to assume that would happen from a gender reveal party is just assuming the worst.

We are given names at birth out of convenience. We learn our name and identify with it. Does that mean that this has to be our name forever? No. A lot of children are raised under a religion and decide to change it later. Children adopt a culture of their parents and then grow up to decide to move and adopt a different culture later in life (immigration). Are these parents wrong for introducing them to cultural traditions they may or may not agree with later in life?

If you want to break it down literally, yeah it is wrong for a human to enforce things on another human. But that's what parenting is innately. If I said a grown woman stripped down an underage girl without consent and touched her everywhere, that sounds horrible. But that's what happens when a mom changes her daughter's diaper.

You're making it seem like a gender reveal party is some kind of forceful identity abuse when it's really just identity for identity's sake. Babies need a bond with their parents and if this is the way they decide to do it, which is giving them a gender, how is that abuse to the kid? It's their own bond. Keep in mind, kids need identity. Different men have different ideas of what a boy should be, them just using the terminology "boy" doesn't mean that the kid has to be the exact same thing as other boys or that the boy should reject the idea of transpeople.

There are probably gender reveal parties thrown by people who are actually transphobic, but thinking that just throwing a gender reveal party makes you transphobic is something I don't understand. How is it wrong to have parents bond with their children in their own ways if those ways are healthy?

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CyricZ posted...

Because no one's making that argument.

youre right, no one except you

Call them sex reveal parties. Problem solved.

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Perascamin posted...

People are allowed to be excited about having a boy or girl lmao you guys are absolute clowns

This. I think they are stupid for other reasons but I sure as hell am not going to tell an expecting parent that they cant do a reveal party if they do choose.

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What part of someone feeling like theyre supposed to be someone else is bad? I dont think Ive ever seen it that way.

Sometimes you swim in a pool and can find your way out pretty easy

Sometimes you can swim in an ocean and feel completely lost and fearful of the vastness of it

were responsible for our words and honestly I feel we should be held accountable no matter how good our intentions since at that point its not an adults mind

youd have to pay real close attention to the phenomena that is kids who learn life by making mostly not clued in choices or kids who learn life by making mostly clued in choices

I was guided to myself for the most part and then chose on my own - how much that is really me I guess? Im not sure, this topic really puts that to question lol


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Master Kazuya posted...

If you want to break it down literally, yeah it is wrong for a human to enforce things on another human. But that's what parenting is innately.

Of course I agree with this. Parents are tasked by their very nature to help establish a child's world as they become aware. That will include facts, opinions, and biases that the parents themselves have. It's not something that can really be avoided.

Master Kazuya posted...

but thinking that just throwing a gender reveal party makes you transphobic is something I don't understand

Okay. I think for the sake of this argument I want to cut a line between "something that is transphobic by concept" and "something that makes you transphobic", or perhaps more clearly "something that indicates a person as transphobic".

And to do that, I want to reference race and racism real quickly. We're all well aware there are plenty of "active" things we can do that are racist. Active discrimination, insults, jokes, etc. And I hope we're all aware that there are things done passively that can be racist. Not taking actions when you could, and more particular to my point, doing things that you weren't even aware were racist, ie. partaking in societal systems that have a baked in discrimination based on race. If you want we can go into more detail about it, but I'd like to hope you've got awareness of it for the sake of this comparison.

But basically gender reveal parties fall more under that passive blanket.

Believe me, I didn't come into this topic knowing exactly what we'd be talking about. I'm not part of Demi Lovato's hit squad sent to spread her word. Before this topic, I honestly hadn't given the concept of gender reveal parties a second thought. Once I read it though, I thought about it, and figured "yeah, given what we now know of gender, it's more or less correct".

I've come to believe that gender reveal parties are part of a gender enforcement system. A system that includes things like gender roles, gendered jobs, gender stereotypes, gendered toys, toxic masculinity, etc. It is absolutely a small part, but a part nonetheless, and it's taken this topic for me to come to that realization.

Am I gonna go out tomorrow and tell every pregnant person I meet not to have a gender reveal party? No.
If I see people have a gender reveal party am I going to call them transphobes? No.

That in particular is not worth the effort.

What was worth the effort was taking a look at the concept, a proper look, and connecting the dots. Much like we connect the dots on systems in our society that are biased towards race. To really combat racism, it's not enough to call out active instances of racism; we have to look at the systems that built it and work to subvert those. I believe it's similar with gender enforcement.

And you're totally free to disagree with me. I'm quite aware that gender systems are far more deeply entwined within the human history of society than racial systems, and trying to untangle them will lead to disagreements and different interpretations. I'm ultimately okay with people thinking I've connected the dots wrong.

All I'm really trying to say is I took a moment to think about it, and I wanted to challenge others to do the same, hopefully trying to explain my thoughts in a convincing way.

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Gender reveal parties are pro-cis but not anti-trans.

If you think anything that is pro-cis is anti-trans, well thats on you.

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CyricZ posted...

What I disagree with is the idea that because something can negatively affect only a statistically small amount of people, then it's fine to keep it within our traditions.

You haven't actually established or demonstrated that negative effect in any way, you just continue to insist that it must be there. Can you explain or demonstrate in some way what negative effect a gender reveal party could have on a child who later comes out as trans and is fully accepted by their family?

Tenlaar posted...

You haven't actually established or demonstrated that negative effect in any way, you just continue to insist that it must be there

The fact that there are trans people in this world who have been rejected by their own family establishes that a system of gender enforcement exists. Do you disagree? If so, where do you think these rejections come from?

Tenlaar posted...

Can you explain or demonstrate in some way what negative effect a gender reveal party could have on a child who later comes out as trans and is fully accepted by their family?

"What is bad about a specific situation where the bad thing doesn't happen?"

That question is pretty much the same as asking "What is the negative effect if the child isn't trans?" Why do you ask questions you know the answer to?

I've already stated that I'm aware the percentage is small. It's you are trying to push the idea that it's "small enough".

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You cant tell parents how to raise theyre children unless its blatant abuse or overly and obviously racist...

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I'd say the biggest issue of your perspective is you're trying to go way too far back in the chain of events that leads to someone being a shitty parent. We can certainly look at the building blocks that help lead to certain things, but you're assuming that the major factor must be found at zero rather than other places in the chain.

It IS small enough to ignore sometimes
Like here

E: this doesn't apply to everything in case that wasn't obvious

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nemu posted...

I'd say the biggest issue of your perspective is you're trying to go way to far back in the chain of events that leads to someone being a shitty parent. We can certainly look at the building blocks that help lead to certain things, but you're assuming that the major factor must be found at zero rather than other places in the chain.

I'm just saying it's part of the chain. That's it.

Anyone saying I want to punish parents or call names or hunt for bigots are reading way way too much into my arguments.

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CyricZ posted...

"What is bad about a specific situation where the bad thing doesn't happen?"

That question is pretty much the same as asking "What is the negative effect if the child isn't trans?" Why do you ask questions you know the answer to?

I am very clearly asking you what the negative effect is if the child IS trans, and you are very clearly still not answering that question.

Tenlaar posted...

I am very clearly asking you what the negative effect is if the child IS trans, and you are very clearly still not answering that question.

You specified that they are "fully accepted by their family", so there'd be no issue.

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CyricZ posted...

You specified that they are "fully accepted by their family", so there'd be no issue.

So then you acknowledge that a gender reveal party itself causes no negative effects...?

Tenlaar posted...

So then you acknowledge that a gender reveal party itself causes no negative effects...?

Maybe you should read Post #339.


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man admitting you may be wrong on this is hard CyricZ, I believe in you though, youll get there

CyricZ posted...

Maybe you should read Post #339.

I already read the long post you made about how you don't think people who have gender reveal parties are transphobes but then clearly implied that you do actually think that when you said that you aren't going to tell them they're transphobes not because you don't believe they are but because "it's not worth the effort." The majority of what you're saying is vague to the point of meaningless and when asked for specifics you default back to the vague.

You acknowledge that a gender reveal party done by a family who accepts their child when they eventually come out as trans doesn't cause any negative effects, so the negative effects you're talking about do not come from gender reveal parties. They come from transphobic parents.

Me: "I'm not calling people transphobes."

You: "Well I've decided you are."

It's getting difficult arguing with you.

Tenlaar posted...

They come from transphobic parents.

And where do transphobic parents come from?

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