Board 8 > Politics Containment Topic 315: Defund the Po...

(+) Yeah! (+)

I also definitely don't need you trying to gaslight me into making me feel like a bad person for not being accommodating enough of your hatred for him.
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Just asking for you to use the site's intended systems, seems pretty simple. You've exerted more effort fuming about it already!

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RaidenGarai posted...

She told my wife to stop watching the "fake news" and watch a reliable network like Fox.

For the life of me I don't understand why so many people trust Fox based on literally nothing.

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Kenri posted...

For the life of me I don't understand why so many people trust Fox based on literally nothing.

Advertising and confirmation bias, in a nutshell.

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Kenri posted...

For the life of me I don't understand why so many people trust Fox based on literally nothing.

Her family is from very rural Wisconsin, and they have a lot of money, basically a double dose of generic Republican. They seek out groups that give them the information they want to hear. I learned pretty fast that when there was a family gathering, always avoid politics.

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Oh, well yeah if they already believe the things Fox is peddling then it makes sense. I get the confirmation bias angle.

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even trump said fox news is "worse than CNN" not too long ago!

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Mr Lasastryke posted...

even trump said fox news is "worse than CNN" not too long ago!

I'm pretty sure he was exaggerating or trying to pressure Fox to treat him more favorably. It'd be very hard to be worse than CNN.

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FOX News and its viewers are arguably the largest cult organization in the world and I'm not making a joke

Basically don't treat it like a news outlet, because it isn't one

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Democrats strategy is pretty wild. Inviting a good bit of Republicans to speak at the convention, the Dixie Chicks playing, etc. They are trying so hard to court Republicans. Which to be fair is a winning strategy and will work, but it has to make the further left sect a little salty despite the amount of time devoted to them also. You can't pivot both ways after all.

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...why would inviting the Dixie Chicks court Republicans? Republicans hate the Dixie Chicks ever since they went off the reservation (of Southerners/country singers) in criticizing George W. Bush.

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Inviso posted...

...why would inviting the Dixie Chicks court Republicans? Republicans hate the Dixie Chicks ever since they went off the reservation (of Southerners/country singers) in criticizing George W. Bush.

Republican voters are the Dixie Chicks base imo. I don't see many liberals being country fans that listened to a band with Dixie in its name until very recently.

Dixie Chicks is popular with southerners and country fans. Which I albeit I assume slants more to republican voters.

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https://www.politico.com/video/2020/08/17/biden-on-police-reform-most-cops-are-good-the-bad-ones-need-to-be-identified-fired-and-prosecuted-083752

Thank God. Maybe he can reign in the extreme left.

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He knows that those on the left basically have to vote for him right now, but if we ever get rid of fptp then the democratic party is fucking doomed

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https://youtu.be/e_1OaTcIjMg

Reminder this is the one of the few advertisers left on Tucker Carlson's show.

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Peace___Frog posted...

He knows that those on the left basically have to vote for him right now, but if we ever get rid of fptp then the democratic party is fucking doomed

What is fptp?

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First past the post

basically, moving towards voting reforms, such as ranked choice voting, would pull a lot of leftists away from this joke of a national party

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Corrik7 posted...

What is fptp?

First Past the Post.

Basically, whoever wins a plurality of the votes in a district is the ONLY representative elected from that district.

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Lmao yeah, the Democratic Party would disappear in the time it takes every Dem to go up for re-election with ranked choice

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Corrik7 posted...

What is fptp?

first past the post

aka "most votes win"

Which is why more than 2 parties is not viable until we switch to Ranked Choice voting which will allow people to vote for who they ACTUALLY want, and still rank the others in order of who they hate the least so they don't end up getting the worst person elected by voting for their preferred choice.

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KamikazePotato posted...

FOX News and its viewers are arguably the largest cult organization in the world and I'm not making a joke

Basically don't treat it like a news outlet, because it isn't one

The funny thing is they have all the all the infrastructure of an actual news outlet, but the vast majority of what is fed to the consumer doesn't utilize it at all.

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Great news:
https://www.wsj.com/articles/postmaster-general-dejoy-to-testify-before-senate-panel-friday-11597758378

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ChaosTonyV4 posted...

Lmao yeah, the Democratic Party would disappear in the time it takes every Dem to go up for re-election with ranked choice

Not a chance

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I also this news pop up today, though I don't know the details well enough to know how many of the problems this solves, if any.

https://amp.cnn.com/cnn/2020/08/18/politics/post-office-dejoy/index.html
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Oh wait that URL was misleading I guess it's actually the same story. My bad.

(I did not click on it originally since I can't read WSJ stories anyway, which was clearly a mistake)
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Probably good you posted anyway; WSJ does have one of the more annoying paywalls.

https://twitter.com/jaketapper/status/1295741764360384521?s=21

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LordoftheMorons posted...

Not a chance

Imagine a system where the entire Left isnt held captive by the Dems and the moderate Right have their own party.

The fact you dont think theres even a chance says a lot, my guy.

As a quick example, I suspect...at least 90% of this topic would never vote Democratic at the top of the ticket again. Am I wrong?

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ChaosTonyV4 posted...

Lmao yeah, the Democratic Party would disappear in the time it takes every Dem to go up for re-election with ranked choice

Arguably the Republican Party as we know it would not fare much better. There's a fairly sharp divide between the working class, tea party, abortion-guns-and-Jesus "populists" and the upper-middle (and outright upper) class, suburban, fuck-you-got-mine big C Conservatives. I could absolutely believe ranked choice leading to at least four viable political parties in America. Maybe not immediately, but within a generation or two?

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ChaosTonyV4 posted...

Imagine a system where the entire Left isnt held captive by the Dems and the moderate Right have their own party.

The fact you dont think theres even a chance says a lot, my guy.

The moderate Right would vote for the Democrats in that world.

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ChaosTonyV4 posted...

Lmao yeah, the Democratic Party would disappear in the time it takes every Dem to go up for re-election with ranked choice

It really wouldn't. This is idealistic thinking for a country that's further right on the political compass than the rest of the world.

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Not_an_Owl posted...

Arguably the Republican Party as we know it would not fare much better. There's a fairly sharp divide between the working class, tea party, abortion-guns-and-Jesus "populists" and the upper-middle (and outright upper) class, suburban, fuck-you-got-mine big C Conservatives. I could absolutely believe ranked choice leading to at least four viable political parties in America.

I agree, and actually yes

red sox 777 posted...

The moderate Right would vote for the Democrats in that world.

I think Red Sox is right that the Democrats would BECOME the moderate right party

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It could actually be pretty bad, because the centrists would almost always control the balance of power. Neither the left nor the right would be able to get an outright majority, and short of a Left/Right screw the center coalition, the center would end up being a coalition partner in every single coalition.


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Not_an_Owl posted...

Arguably the Republican Party as we know it would not fare much better. There's a fairly sharp divide between the working class, tea party, abortion-guns-and-Jesus "populists" and the upper-middle (and outright upper) class, suburban, fuck-you-got-mine big C Conservatives. I could absolutely believe ranked choice leading to at least four viable political parties in America. Maybe not immediately, but within a generation or two?

I think ultimately, you would have the Republicans stay the same, because they don't have an ideology and only care about being "not the other guy". Meanwhile, the Democrats would split into the conservative and liberal parties, and ultimately, the conservatives would outnumber the liberals, so the liberals would be forced to deal with their second choice (the conservative Dems) anyway.

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ChaosTonyV4 posted...

Imagine a system where the entire Left isnt held captive by the Dems and the moderate Right have their own party.

The fact you dont think theres even a chance says a lot, my guy.

As a quick example, I suspect...at least 90% of this topic would never vote Democratic at the top of the ticket again. Am I wrong?

Youre in a topic where I believe every single person is below 35!

Anyway, you just watched Joe Biden decisively win the Democratic primary. A sizable chunk of the party (Id guess ~40%) would break off in a multi-party system, sure, but the center left party would not remotely disappear. And at the end of the day, you still wouldnt get what you want because the leftwing party would have to form a coalition to get to a majority!

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LordoftheMorons posted...

Youre in a topic where I believe every single person is below 35!

Anyway, you just watched Joe Biden decisively win the Democratic primary. A sizable chunk of the party (Id guess ~40%) would break off in a multi-party system, sure, but the center left party would not remotely disappear. And at the end of the day, you still wouldnt get what you want because the leftwing party would have to form a coalition to get to a majority!

LordoftheMorons posted...

Youre in a topic where I believe every single person is below 35!

Anyway, you just watched Joe Biden decisively win the Democratic primary. A sizable chunk of the party (Id guess ~40%) would break off in a multi-party system, sure, but the center left party would not remotely disappear. And at the end of the day, you still wouldnt get what you want because the leftwing party would have to form a coalition to get to a majority!

For the left to gain power they would need to do what the hard right does - use FPTP to their advantage. You can control the country with about 23% of votes that way. (23 is half of 46 which was enough to win everything in 2016).

LordoftheMorons posted...

Anyway, you just watched Joe Biden decisively win the Democratic primary. A sizable chunk of the party (Id guess ~40%) would break off in a multi-party system, sure, but the center left party would not remotely disappear. And at the end of the day, you still wouldnt get what you want because the leftwing party would have to form a coalition to get to a majority!

In all fairness, he only won the primary decisively because AOC isn't old enough to run and we wouldn't want to waste her this early anyway.

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Dancedreamer posted...

In all fairness, he only won the primary decisively because AOC isn't old enough to run and we wouldn't want to waste her this early anyway.

She wouldn't have won... Lol

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Inviso posted...

I think ultimately, you would have the Republicans stay the same, because they don't have an ideology and only care about being "not the other guy". Meanwhile, the Democrats would split into the conservative and liberal parties, and ultimately, the conservatives would outnumber the liberals, so the liberals would be forced to deal with their second choice (the conservative Dems) anyway

You think the Conservatives in the Democratic Party would outnumber the Liberals or Leftists PLUS the Left who isnt part of the Democratic Party?

LordoftheMorons posted...

Youre in a topic where I believe every single person is below 35!

...Yeah?

LordoftheMorons posted...

Anyway, you just watched Joe Biden decisively win the Democratic primary.

Yes and everyone knows why. The Left doesnt come out to vote because they see it as hopeless. We can argue on whether theyd bother, but I believe they would vote in a heartbeat without a two party stranglehold.

LordoftheMorons posted...

And at the end of the day, you still wouldnt get what you want because the leftwing party would have to form a coalition to get to a majority!

Sure, but I never argued otherwise on this point.


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Tony, the primary was a two-party system in which the liberal left could literally prove that they're stronger than the conservative center, and Bernie STILL just could NOT get the job done. So yes, I think conservatives Democrats outnumber liberal Democrats or leftists or whatever you want to call them. What makes you think they DON'T?

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Inviso posted...

Tony, the primary was a two-party system in which the liberal left could literally prove that they're stronger than the conservative center, and Bernie STILL just could NOT get the job done. So yes, I think conservatives Democrats outnumber liberal Democrats or leftists or whatever you want to call them. What makes you think they DON'T?

Fear of Trump + a media saying for four straight years that the Left is why Hillary lost = people running to the guy the same media said was the best/only/eventual winner?

How many hundreds of prominent Dems have we seen literally say Joe isnt my first choice, but hes our only choice.

In fact, I believe YOU literally said this.

How does the guy who was nobodys first choice win, especially after getting historically BTFO in the first three democratic primaries?

Pragmatism, fear, and apathy on the Left of seeing those things combining into perhaps the weakest Presidential candidate in our lifetime who STILL could somehow win this.


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Yeah, as it currently stands, I think the moderate/conservative wing of the party outnumbers the left in the Democratic party. The gap has definitely been closing, thanks in part to the generational gap beginning to catch up with the voter demographics so in a decade or two that may no longer be true - but short term? Not there yet, IMO.

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ChaosTonyV4 posted...

You think the Conservatives in the Democratic Party would outnumber the Liberals or Leftists PLUS the Left who isnt part of the Democratic Party?

I think you really overestimate how much people would immediately understand preferential voting. And how many leftists would actually vote if they had ranked choice. If they voted, the DNC wouldn't be nearly as far right as it is now.

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LordoftheMorons posted...

Anyway, you just watched Joe Biden decisively win the Democratic primary. A sizable chunk of the party (Id guess ~40%) would break off in a multi-party system, sure, but the center left party would not remotely disappear. And at the end of the day, you still wouldnt get what you want because the leftwing party would have to form a coalition to get to a majority!

We'd still be better off because you center-left people would have to actually work with us instead of demanding we vote with you 100% of the time because the alternative is fascism. I mean whenever there has to be 'compromise' it's the left that always has to be the one compromising. Under a different system, at least the center-left would have to learn to compromise themselves.

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ChaosTonyV4 posted...

Fear of Trump + a media saying for four straight years that the Left is why Hillary lost = people running to the guy the same media said was the best/only/eventual winner?

How many hundreds of prominent Dems have we seen literally say Joe isnt my first choice, but hes our only choice.

In fact, I believe YOU literally said this.

How does the guy who was nobodys first choice win, especially after getting historically BTFO in the first three democratic primaries?

Pragmatism, fear, and apathy on the Left of seeing those things combining into perhaps the weakest Presidential candidate in our lifetime who STILL could somehow win this.

So it couldn't POSSIBLY be that your ideology isn't as popular as you believe it is. The system is just completely rigged and there's nothing you need to do to change and make progressivism more appealing to a wider audience.

I just don't understand why you're SO sure that, if the system was fixed, progressives would take over the Democratic Party. What proof is there that this is the case? Sure, in deep blue areas, yeah, fine. But America is a purple nation, not a blue one.

At this point, there is no reason to believe that progressives outnumber moderates/centrists. Maybe eventually, sure. And I'd personally be down for that. But as I've said before, the attitude of progressive supporters far too often comes across as "we're right and we've done nothing wrong in our campaigning; the system is just rigged against us." It prevents any introspection whatsoever and allows the discourse to continue shifting right, because you guys don't act any different from the nonsense of the Green and Libertarian non-parties.

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Dancedreamer posted...

We'd still be better off because you center-left people would have to actually work with us instead of demanding we vote with you 100% of the time because the alternative is fascism. I mean whenever there has to be 'compromise' it's the left that always has to be the one compromising. Under a different system, at least the center-left would have to learn to compromise themselves.

That does happen currently. In fact, the Democratic party has moved pretty substantially leftward over the past four years. Under the parliamentary system you might get the concessions you want a bit faster, but it also might be the case (exactly as red sox says) that the center left party forms a coalition with the center right party if the left-wing party's asks are too much

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Dancedreamer posted...

We'd still be better off because you center-left people would have to actually work with us instead of demanding we vote with you 100% of the time because the alternative is fascism. I mean whenever there has to be 'compromise' it's the left that always has to be the one compromising. Under a different system, at least the center-left would have to learn to compromise themselves.

Wouldn't it still make more sense for the center-left to work with the right? If the GOP doesn't splinter into multiple parties, they'll always have enough power to block anything the left wants anyway. If the GOP does split up somehow, the center-left can just work with the new not-fascist right-wing party for the old pro-business consensus stuff that they both want.
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Inviso posted...

So it couldn't POSSIBLY be that your ideology isn't as popular as you believe it is. The system is just completely rigged and there's nothing you need to do to change and make progressivism more appealing to a wider audience.

Progressive ideology is very popular. It's not the problem. If you put Universal Healthcare to a vote, it'd probably win big. Bernie Sanders has done a lot of work making progressiveness appealing. Unfortunately, he can only do so much. In part because he's not the best at the political game. It's what a lot of people like about him, but it didn't make him many friends and allies. People are pretty easily manipulated. And that's why progressives haven't taken over the party in the way they'd like to. They need to start playing the political game. As much as it might pain them.

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Dancedreamer posted...

Progressive ideology is very popular. It's not the problem. If you put Universal Healthcare to a vote, it'd probably win big. Bernie Sanders has done a lot of work making progressiveness appealing. Unfortunately, he can only do so much. In part because he's not the best at the political game. It's what a lot of people like about him, but it didn't make him many friends and allies. People are pretty easily manipulated. And that's why progressives haven't taken over the party in the way they'd like to. They need to start playing the political game. As much as it might pain them.

I think this mindset is part of the problem. Medicare for All is a simple phrase to say and it gets mass support because of how simple it comes across. Your average voter doesn't have to think about it. The SECOND you start asking "where's the money coming from to pay for this?" is when it starts to lose support. It doesn't matter how many times you dodge the question "Will this make taxes rise?" with "You'll pay less for healthcare", because Republicans already reject the idea just because Democrats want it; and conservative Democrats are fiscally-minded and worry about where funding is going to come from things.

A lot of progressive ideas that Bernie pushed in the past two campaigns sound GREAT in a vacuum. If you were able to just HAVE those things (Medicare for All, Free College, Free Daycare, etc.), OBVIOUSLY they're popular. But when you have to implement them and deal with collecting and allocating funds, that's when issues start to arise and you start to lose that broad support.

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I will say, the situation you are looking for sort of worked in the UK, but it's precisely because they have FPTP. There the 2 big parties are Labour and the Conservatives, while the centrist party (Liberal Democrats) is small. Both Labour and Conservatives have realistic chances of winning majorities in Parliament without need for a coalition, even while no one ever gets close to 50% of the popular vote. It's the magic of FPTP.

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Inviso posted...

I think this mindset is part of the problem. Medicare for All is a simple phrase to say and it gets mass support because of how simple it comes across. Your average voter doesn't have to think about it. The SECOND you start asking "where's the money coming from to pay for this?" is when it starts to lose support. It doesn't matter how many times you dodge the question "Will this make taxes rise?" with "You'll pay less for healthcare", because Republicans already reject the idea just because Democrats want it; and conservative Democrats are fiscally-minded and worry about where funding is going to come from things.

Let's set one myth straight: They don't care where the funding comes from. Nobody asks how we're going to pay for our next F-35's that can't fly. Nobody asks how we're going to pay for yet another war in the middle east nobody asked to get into. They don't ask where funding for tax cuts for CEO's so they can buy three more yacht's come from. Or where we're going to get the money for farm subsidies. But suddenly, it's a problem when we want Universal Healthcare. It's only a problem because it cuts into the purse strings of their corporate buddies who want to buy their 6th yacht. "Fiscal Conservative" is a myth. They don't care where the funding comes from. They care whose funding it cuts into. Namely, their billionaire buddies.

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