Board 8 > Actual The Last of Us Part II Spoiler Topic

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Lightning Strikes
07/05/20 9:22:35 AM
#1:


This is the spoiler topic for people who have finished the game, not just looked at leaks with partial context.

What did you think? What were your favourite parts? Least favourite parts? What did you make of the ending?

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Lightning Strikes
07/05/20 10:30:29 AM
#2:


Personally, I felt it was a very good game, a clear improvement over the original, and Naughty Dogs best yet.

More than anything else, I find the structure of this games narrative fascinating. I am not sure if the structure they picked is the ideal one, however, though it does have its advantages. I can think of at least four alternate cuts that would have a very different impact. In particular Id love to see what a chronological version of this game looks like. On the one hand I felt that the current presentation introduces a bit of repetition that slows the pacing a tad. On the other hand, when you return to the Aquarium as Abby knowing what youre going to find, it makes the whole thing much more harrowing. And that perspective shift is probably the most interesting thing about the game.

The one edit that Id say would definitely improve things is putting the flashback to the dance at the start of the game (after the prologue). It was in the main trailer, and you dont really benefit from having it right near the end. And conversely that last flashback really benefited from being right at the very end, it provided a bit of relief from the unrelenting grimness of the rest.

I feel the main weakness of the game other than possibly the structural stuff is some pacing problems. Abby Day 1 has been discussed a lot as being too long, but for me where things really got slow was the last section. It felt like it either needed to be a lot longer, or a lot shorter.

The best part of this entire game is easily Abbys Day 2. The sky bridge sequence, the hotel, and the hospital basement with the rat king were all incredible, especially the last one. Also it was nice to actually accomplish your goal and not have everything go horribly wrong for once! And while I dont think the effects of the leaks on the discourse around this game (ie making it toxic) dont really need to be discussed any more, it does strike me as funny that the people slamming the game for the content in the leaks dont even know what the rat king is. Or any of the best parts of this game.

So anyway, great game, probably my game if the year so far, Part II>Left Behind>The Last of Us.

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#3
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BlackDra90n
07/05/20 11:05:04 AM
#4:


I enjoyed the gameplay more than the first one as well. Felt like they just took the same gameplay but added new features that fleshed it out more without making it feel too clunky. I did feel it did get a bit repetitive near the end, but that's really the only complain I have about the gameplay.

As for the story, I generally enjoyed it as well. It was more complicated than the first one so it inevitably didn't feel as "tight", but I loved the narrative experience of going through Abby's story. Thought it was an interesting way to make the player understand a character that you would've initially hated.

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HanOfTheNekos
07/05/20 12:48:01 PM
#5:


Yeah, the flashbacks and scenes at the farm towards the end of the game were a little much. I guess their goal was to make you think it was the end of the game, then surprise you with more, but it got me a bit there.

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XIII_rocks
07/05/20 12:53:42 PM
#6:


Like I said I think it was designed to deliberately evoke the ending of UC4, which is pretty smart imo

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BlackDra90n
07/05/20 12:56:54 PM
#7:


I really like the idea that it was supposed to seem like a "good ending" but Ellie just had to take it one step too far. I felt the entire California section was a bit much but if you frame it like that it seems pretty cool.

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Menji
07/05/20 1:23:21 PM
#8:


I liked it. The pacing needed some fixing and the gameplay still suffered from classic ND flaws (eg ninja dodging bullets).

The ending segment was my favorite part, Ellie on the farm, then California, then the final bit with Joel.

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Lightning Strikes
07/05/20 1:47:19 PM
#9:


I think the encounter design in California is amazing. The option to set the chained infected loose on the bandits is great, and I loved the sheer length and scope of that last stealth/combat section, it really felt like an opportunity to use everything youve learned.

I also appreciate that they gave not one, but two obvious stopping points at the farm (when Ellie is sitting on the tractor and after Dina finds her in the barn) and went with neither. I just wonder if the story stuff after adds all that much! The message is the same and all it does is cost Ellie two fingers and her partner (and its easy to see the latter getting reconciled).

Also has anybody looked at Tommys head injury in detail because Im wondering how he survived that.

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ctesjbuvf
07/13/20 12:27:47 PM
#10:


I was personally pretty disappointed, though spoiling myself ahead of the game took some of that away. I enjoyed playing through the game, but for a game that's all about the story it's not that great imo.

I liked basically every cutscene between Joel and Ellie in the game, they're few, but they're all extremely good.

I don't think the game did a great job at making me enjoy the characters. Most of the side characters have little to no development, though I did like Lev. Ellie is a mess at this point and they spend so much energy making Abby seem like a fantastic person and making you feel sorry for her that she ends up really dull and almost out of character. All the hatred she has when killing Joel and when fighting Ellie in the theater seems like something that we'd feel more often like we do with Ellie, but the rest of the time she's a genuinely good person just trying to do the best. I'm not sure how well I'm wording this but there's some disconnect there.

The story never really had me hooked. I never felt great need to take revenge, it was obvious all along that Abby had a really darn good reason to brutally murder someone who just saved her life. Then during all of Abby's part you knew almost all of what would happen. The aquarium return was fine, but not fantastic imo and not worth the cost of splitting their arcs up entirely. I disliked the ending quite a bit. JJ looked big enough for a lot of time to have passed. Did she have to know she could have killed Abby to let go of it all? I'm not entirely sure, but it sure was all unsatisfying and stupid. Once again I was doing something with Ellie that I really felt was a terrible decision. Tommy also felt off in the end. He was the one arguing in the theater to be satisfied with what they'd done and have Abby live. Don't know why he needed a miserable ending like that. Also, as much as I liked the Joel scenes, they were probably a bit less imptactful to me being all in the past because we already knew where they ended up. Overall, I think it was a disappointing story they wanted to tell and on top of that the narrative and pacind has obvious flaws.

The gameplay was mostly great, this definitely carried the game for me. That and the presentation, because they sure are great at presenting what they want to present, so it's a shame I didn't enjoy the content more. The only downsides to gameplay to me are first of all melee combat, which feels straight out of 2010 or earlier (animations are better, but jeez, it's ass) and then a lot of things resetting once you play as Abby. They made a good attempt at making her feel different enough, but you still had to get a good bit of the same things or very similar ones instead. Another reason I felt like the split wasn't worth it.

Overall, it's probably 6 out of 10 for me, so slightly above average.

Some minor things that didn't effect my own enjoyment, but is a problem at last. That trailer showing a scene between Ellie and Joel which never happens because it's actually Jesse there is complete BS and such things always will be. I didn't mind the transgender representation personally, but knowing a large bit of the community did is worry some, unfortunately. And on a more unserious note, I really miss the sound when finding alcohol in the first game, and I was enjoying finding coins of all the states, so why not have them all, dammit.

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Leafeon13N
07/13/20 12:59:59 PM
#11:


ctesjbuvf posted...
I was enjoying finding coins of all the states, so why not have them all, dammit.
Seriously, what the hell.

When I saw coins I figured it was 50 for sure.
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BlackDra90n
07/13/20 1:01:31 PM
#12:


I thought they would have all the states too, feels weird how they only had 30 something.

I also collect coins so I thought that was pretty neat to include. Especially since the concept of states and money have pretty much disappeared in that universe too.

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davidponte
07/13/20 1:08:15 PM
#13:


I don't really have anything to add that hasn't been already said in this topic, but I just finished it last weekend and loved it as well. I think that most of what @Lightning_Strikes said I can agree with, and those are my general thoughts on the game. UC4 is my favorite ND game and this one at minimum comes very close to it. I'll have to think about it more after a while.

It didn't take me playing too long to recognize that the gameplay was better than the original. I think the story had its ups and downs, and pacing was an issue, but overall I think that wins out over the original as well. The only time I was kind of not into it was when I realized I'd be playing as Abby for an extended period of time, but that speaks to the game making me hate the character. By the end of my time with her I honestly wasn't sure what I wanted to happen, so the game did a good job of winning me over. I essentially pleaded with the TV to just stop when Ellie decided she had to finish it at the end of the farm section, and was very ready for Abby to come out on top there.

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Leafeon13N
07/13/20 1:12:27 PM
#14:


davidponte posted...
I essentially pleaded with the TV to just stop when Ellie decided she had to finish it at the end of the farm section, and was very ready for Abby to come out on top there.
I really liked the end of the game in this regard.

Had my mind screaming for Ellie to just stop but had to will myself to keep pressing the buttons.

The final fight was agonizing but when it actually stopped it was this massive feeling of relief.
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ctesjbuvf
07/13/20 2:05:05 PM
#15:


It really is a huge shame that the game was leaked. The obvious reason is all the people judging the game from some misleading leaks, but honestly, talking about this game around the place, the fans of it are not all too much better. A lot of people went into the game with an idea that they needed to defend the game or hate the game no matter what happened. It seems in general criticism of the game isn't taken as serious as it should be. A lot of articles focus on one thing and it's like "they just don't understand it" or "they just didn't like lesbians in focus" or somelike like that, clearly missing the point or letting one of the worst internet trolls be the example. A lot of story defending is basically just explaining what happened or claiming that haters just wanted something different, at least that's my observation. It's a controversial game that took a lot of risks. Having "I didn't like the story" with "you just wanted something else" is a prime example of not being taken seriously. I've also seen a lot of people like Ellie and not Abby, for better or worse reasons. But when people are countering that with explaining that Abby is a better person and if you hate Abby for her bad actions you must hate Ellie more, it's stupid on so many levels. TLoU in itself is a perfect example of likeable/good character =/= good person. Besides, you know Ellie from the first game, it's natural to side with who you know.

Finally, the idea that you need to play the full game for your opinion to count has serious flaws. If you disliked the game after playing through a good bit of it then that's a strike against it already, it should ideally have you hooked the whole way through. Same goes if you don't like a synopsis of the game. Then that's fair. A lot of the time your intuition on such is true. If you need to play through 20+ hours to maybe not think a game was as bad as it sounds, then that's a problem too. That's a lot. And for a game as story heavy and cinematic as this one, watching it all definitely gives you a fair opinion. The idea that you would like the story much more or less if you played instead of watching is absurd to me. Minimal difference at best.

Just needed to get that out. Board 8 is in one of the best places on the internet I've seen to talk about this.

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Leafeon13N
07/13/20 2:10:01 PM
#16:


ctesjbuvf posted...
The idea that you would like the story much more or less if you played instead of watching is absurd to me.
I disagree with this. There was definitely a lot of emotional impact in having to hit the buttons myself.
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ctesjbuvf
07/13/20 2:19:25 PM
#17:


But how much a difference will that make? If you didn't like the story by watching it, I doubt it'll make too much of a difference.

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Sorozone
07/13/20 2:21:33 PM
#18:


Yeah. Honestly if I'm not getting direct feedback either from button pushes or rumble, it is and issue. Maybe not playing the full game, that's fine, but I'm not going to take your opinion or perspective seriously unless you've at least played it.

Video games are different in that regard because of the actually physical feedback, imo. Compared to say an actual movie.

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Leafeon13N
07/13/20 2:24:53 PM
#19:


ctesjbuvf posted...
But how much a difference will that make? If you didn't like the story by watching it, I doubt it'll make too much of a difference.
That is part of it though, I didn't like the actions I was taking some of those times, the game legitimately made me question if I actually wanted to press that button to move on.

I don't think you quite get the same impact without aying personally.
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Menji
07/13/20 2:25:17 PM
#20:


I think it's pretty significant, especially if you're not just watching the game on its own.

Like if I was watching a streamer play a game, I'd find it hard to get invested in any game for a couple reasons: they're talking during emotional moments (especially jokes) or they're making different choices than I would (no matter how small).


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colliding
07/13/20 2:25:31 PM
#21:


The problem with the "watching it is enough to form opinions" argument is that you're not watching it in a vacuum. If you're watching a streamer, their reactions are going to affect your personal reaction.

Also, I do think button pressing is a big deal, because of immersion. The stories of most JRPG's are pretty bad, but actually playing the game and maneuvering your avatar around the world actually does help in this regard.

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davidponte
07/13/20 2:28:35 PM
#22:


Yeah, this isn't something that only exists with this game. I don't get nearly the same emotional response watching a game as I do playing it in general, which is why I don't usually watch people play games unless I have no desire to play them or I already have played them and have experienced them myself.

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davidponte
07/13/20 2:30:57 PM
#23:


Leafeon13N posted...
That is part of it though, I didn't like the actions I was taking some of those times, the game legitimately made me question if I actually wanted to press that button to move on.

I don't think you quite get the same impact without aying personally.

I played the game with my girlfriend watching every moment, and in both the theater and final fight I was struggling to hit the square button, meanwhile she was very quick to say, "just do it". She was pretty emotional about the game as well, but it seemed far easier for her to tell me to do something than for me to actually do it.

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Aecioo
07/13/20 2:31:47 PM
#24:


Playing any game impacts how you react to pretty much everything else around it, including the story. You are more attached or deattached to moments and characters because it is all a single package that builds or detracts from other aspects. It's not a film - that's a different medium for a reason.

Not saying you can't have a valid opinion on a game by watching, but its definitely less valid.

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PrivateBiscuit1
07/13/20 2:33:39 PM
#25:


It's a narrative game billed as a narrative experience above everything else.

Because people didn't play fetch with a dog five times in a row before it let them proceed doesn't make their opinion less valid if they're judging the game's narrative. This is just a way to discount people's opinions and legitimate criticisms by saying "Well you didn't press x to smack the girl with a pipe."

The girl had to be smacked with a pipe to proceed. It's no different than a movie other than you had to press a button to keep watching. You can discount people's comments on gameplay or how the gameplay was woven into the narrative, but you can't say people's opinions on the narrative is bunk if they watched the game instead of playing it. They saw the same things you did.

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ctesjbuvf
07/13/20 2:37:15 PM
#26:


I didn't say it doesn't make a difference. I said it didn't make a huge one. If we're considering streamers talking over your watchthrough, then moreso sure, but it's still undermining people. If you disliked the game by watching it, then you wouldn't have loved it playing it. There's only so much your opinion can change by holding the controller, especially when it ends up the same.

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davidponte
07/13/20 2:37:54 PM
#27:


Maybe we can all just agree that people experience things differently. If I say, "playing the game elicited a deeper emotional response from me than just watching it would have", and you say "nah bro watching it is the same thing", who sounds like the asshole?

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PrivateBiscuit1
07/13/20 2:39:50 PM
#28:


Nobody sounds like the asshole there?

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davidponte
07/13/20 2:41:49 PM
#29:


You definitely do for telling me that how I experience games is wrong. You could have said, "that's fair, but for me I experience it the same regardless of the way I consume it".

Instead your post came across as, "you're all wrong for feeling the way you do and I can objectively state that all games are the same whether you watch or play it".

'me' and 'I' are stand-ins for whoever you directed your post at.

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colliding
07/13/20 2:44:22 PM
#30:


Video game narratives don't exist independently of gameplay. A game's mechanics can have a huge impact on how the narrative is conveyed and received by the player.

"It's no different than a movie other than you had to press a button to keep watching." Yes. So it is different. Our difference in opinion stems from people discounting the importance of the button press, where I think it is essential.

If I watched someone play Metal Gear Solid 2, I could definitely have an opinion about the story and what I saw, but said opinion most likely would have changed if I had played the game myself. You need that role-playing aspect of gameplay to build attachment to Raiden.
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ctesjbuvf
07/13/20 2:45:08 PM
#31:


davidponte posted...
Maybe we can all just agree that people experience things differently. If I say, "playing the game elicited a deeper emotional response from me than just watching it would have", and you say "nah bro watching it is the same thing", who sounds like the asshole?

Well yeah, I mean, I said it gave you a fair opinion and that I don't think it can make all that big a difference in that if you liked or disliked the game from watching, that's probably also what you'd feel playing. Wasn't trying to say anyone sounded insulting and I respect and understand a statement like that.

Most of the cutscenes in the game requires you to do nothing, so there's a definitely also a difference from scene to scene.

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PrivateBiscuit1
07/13/20 2:46:43 PM
#32:


I'm talking entirely about people judging the narrative of the game with people like Sorozone going "You shouldn't take their opinion seriously if they didn't press buttons." Which I think is the most asshole take on everything in this discussion.

I have never said anyone feels anything wrong by playing the game. I'm defending the point that people can still have legitimate opinions on the narrative despite not playing the game.

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davidponte
07/13/20 2:50:12 PM
#33:


PrivateBiscuit1 posted...
I'm talking entirely about people judging the narrative of the game with people like Sorozone going "You shouldn't take their opinion seriously if they didn't press buttons." Which I think is the most asshole take on everything in this discussion.

I have never said anyone feels anything wrong by playing the game. I'm defending the point that people can still have legitimate opinions on the narrative despite not playing the game.

Sure, but your post had both "people can have legitimate discussions" and "the game is the same regardless of the way you consume it".

I never argued for/against the former in any of my points, but I am definitely arguing against the latter, which you did say in various ways with your first sentence and the sentence that colliding highlighted in their response.

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davidponte
07/13/20 2:53:26 PM
#34:


ctesjbuvf posted...
Well yeah, I mean, I said it gave you a fair opinion and that I don't think it can make all that big a difference in that if you liked or disliked the game from watching, that's probably also what you'd feel playing. Wasn't trying to say anyone sounded insulting and I respect and understand a statement like that.

Most of the cutscenes in the game requires you to do nothing, so there's a definitely also a difference from scene to scene.

I can agree with this while also saying that the largeness of the difference is different from person to person. I think it's impossible to say with conviction that any particular moment resonates the same with playing vs. watching because we can't say for certain how any one individual reacts to something when playing vs watching.

There are people on both ends of the spectrum in this very topic.

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PrivateBiscuit1
07/13/20 2:55:35 PM
#35:


davidponte posted...
Sure, but your post had both "people can have legitimate discussions" and "the game is the same regardless of the way you consume it".

I never argued for/against the former in any of my points, but I am definitely arguing against the latter, which you totally did say in various ways with your first sentence and the sentence that colliding highlighted in their response.
I feel like you're misunderstanding my point here.

I'm saying you can view the entire narrative the same without pressing the buttons. And you can critique the narrative off of that. How the narrative makes you feel can be altered by button presses. I've never stated otherwise. But we watched the same story play out. You can't say otherwise.

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ctesjbuvf
07/13/20 2:56:54 PM
#36:


Well, I'm glad someone agreed with me about the coin thing. I've never felt so sad when unlocking a trophy I should have been proud about getting on my first go lol.

I still need to play new game+ to fully upgrade weapons and characters and get platinum. I'm guessing there is no way to jump in that if you want to keep your collectables, so you have to play through until you get to Abby's part? Or can you work around this using chapter selection, would that make your things carry over?

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XIII_rocks
07/13/20 2:59:12 PM
#37:


davidponte posted...
Yeah, this isn't something that only exists with this game. I don't get nearly the same emotional response watching a game as I do playing it in general, which is why I don't usually watch people play games unless I have no desire to play them or I already have played them and have experienced them myself.

Yeah I said in previous topics that I felt a huge reluctance to act at certain points. Dread, tension, anxiety. But I also never considered stopping. It was a strange push-pull that I've never really felt before.

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davidponte
07/13/20 3:01:13 PM
#38:


PrivateBiscuit1 posted...
But we watched the same story play out. You can't say otherwise.

I understand your point, and I get what you're saying, but I'm also arguing that in the moments when there are no button presses and you are simply just watching a cutscene, there can still be a difference in emotional response depending on if you've been playing the game up to that point vs just watching it. It's not only in the moments where you physically press a button that the game can feel different.

And again, that's different for everyone and the amount of difference is different for everyone.

Maybe you've been saying that all along and I am misunderstanding your initial point, but the tone of your post made me feel otherwise.

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davidponte
07/13/20 3:03:04 PM
#39:


XIII_rocks posted...
It was a strange push-pull that I've never really felt before.

This wasn't the best story I've ever experienced, but it might be the only one where I've ever felt this specific way.

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PrivateBiscuit1
07/13/20 3:04:14 PM
#40:


You can say we experienced the game in a different way, but we watched the same story.

You can critique the story of a game based on that. That is my entire point. Nothing more nothing less.

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ctesjbuvf
07/13/20 3:06:58 PM
#41:


If nothing else, I'm glad I pointed this out because it's my nice reading the comments about the difference it made for people.

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XIII_rocks
07/13/20 3:07:50 PM
#42:


ctesjbuvf posted...
If you disliked the game by watching it, then you wouldn't have loved it playing it.

I disagree with this btw. It recontextualises the entire game.

I don't think it's guaranteed or anything! But you're fundamentally handicapping your experience with the game by not playing it and that can have substantial changes on how you perceive it.

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Not Dave
07/13/20 3:09:30 PM
#43:


I liked this game quite a bit. The story didn't have the same effect on me as the first one's, but it was fun and entertaining, and the gameplay seemed like a big step up. I haven't enjoyed many "stealth" games, but really like that element here.

I don't want to play it again any time soon, though. I went through a second time as far as I needed to for the platinum, and there are so many really fucking boring parts that can't be skipped.

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davidponte
07/13/20 3:10:22 PM
#44:


PrivateBiscuit1 posted...
You can say we experienced the game in a different way, but we watched the same story.

You can critique the story of a game based on that. That is my entire point. Nothing more nothing less.


XIII_rocks posted...
I disagree with this btw. It recontextualises the entire game.

I don't think it's guaranteed or anything! But you're fundamentally handicapping your experience with the game by not playing it and that can have substantial changes on how you perceive it.


What if we just put these two points together and called it a day?

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ctesjbuvf
07/13/20 3:11:39 PM
#45:


Hmm, I think it's perhaps more about the atmosphere you put yourself in. If I played the game listening to music at the same time vs. if I sat next to someone irl who was fully into it, I'd think the latter had me hooked more.

Perhaps not the best example but the point should be there.

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XIII_rocks
07/13/20 3:13:56 PM
#46:


davidponte posted...
This wasn't the best story I've ever experienced, but it might be the only one where I've ever felt this specific way.

In one of the other topics I drew a comparison to Undertale, which I think this game owes a small debt to: while in UT you can choose not to play Genocide, if you do then the Undyne fight (or well, the entire run, but that moment in particular) is designed to make you feel shitty, even reluctant to continue. TLOU2 takes away the choice and forces that on you. And I think that feeling gets amped up by the more realistic, brutal style and presentation but that's just my sensibilities.

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PrivateBiscuit1
07/13/20 3:21:24 PM
#47:


Let me put it this way.

If I bought this game and played it and still said "I think the story is still the drizzling shits and this is why" then the same people who said I can't give a proper opinion on it because I didn't play it would move the goal posts to "Well we can't take your opinion on it seriously because you watched the game before playing it!" It's a can't win for people who already want to discount negative opinions about this game. They'll come up with any excuse to delegitimize actual criticism.

That said, I don't want to play this game because I didn't like the gameplay of the first game and I don't think I'd like it anymore than the first, even with the improvements. But to further make a point, I loved the first game's story. But I fucking hated playing through it to get through those story points. It was miserable. I looked for how to get through certain parts after dying once because I just thought it was horrible to play through this game.

By that logic, shouldn't I have a more negative experience of the narrative since I played the game and hated the parts where I actually had to actively interact with it and having to play the game is so integral to your opinion of it? And yet I came out of it thinking the narrative was outstanding stuff. I think it's entirely possible to separate opinions on the narrative from the gameplay. Hell, I would have been a lot happier with TLOU1 if I didn't even have to play it at all and just watched it instead.

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XIII_rocks
07/13/20 3:25:53 PM
#48:


PrivateBiscuit1 posted...
If I bought this game and played it and still said "I think the story is still the drizzling shits and this is why" then the same people who said I can't give a proper opinion on it because I didn't play it would move the goal posts to "Well we can't take your opinion on it seriously because you watched the game before playing it!" It's a can't win for people who already want to discount negative opinions about this game. They'll come up with any excuse to delegitimize actual criticism.

Well, yeah. Your first impression has been completely spoiled/tainted and a prejudice has been built. It has lost a lot of its impact. And that's not a personal attack or anything, that's just natural. You can't erase the memory. It'd be the same for anyone.

I was relatively unspoiled, except for Joel, and that had very little initial impact because I knew it was coming. I'll never get that back and it kind of sucks.

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PrivateBiscuit1
07/13/20 3:28:49 PM
#49:


So you're saying that my opinion on the game's story shouldn't be taken seriously because I didn't play the game first then?

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XIII_rocks
07/13/20 3:36:33 PM
#50:


That's a bit extreme, but I'd say it has less validity.

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