Board 8 > Anagram Aces Ace Attorney Topic 5: Ghost of Morality (spoilers)

(+) Yeah! (+)

ZeldaTPLink posted...

I kind of hate how they thought Maya being the defendant AGAIN was somehow clever. 4 times? Really?

And it reduces the amount of investigating with Maya in a game that was advertised as having Maya in it.

Yeah this was a real issue for me. It's not a bad case, but like...why.

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Yeah, but we get Phoenix/Rayfa, which turned out to be fantastic.

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• "I may be a defendant this time, but I'll be by your side like always, Nick!" I've literally lost track of how many times you've been a defendant before, Maya. And that's excluding weird things like the time you were possessed by the evil twin of an actual defendant who then impersonated her sister.
• I just realized, it actually does make more sense to only have one judge in this country. After all, it's presumably a tiny mountain country, and trials don't last long. AA5 establishes that judges are as common as lawyers and prosecutors, yet if you discount the Edgeworth games, we've only ever seen two.
• "Maya Fey's soul shall be plundged into the lowest level of hell - the Hell of Tickling. There, she shall be tickled without end for 500 million years." This sounds like a literal fetish comic drawn by some weirdo on Devianart.
• You ever wonder what VAs think while they read their lines? Like, what's the VA for Rayfa thinking while she reads about the pool of souls without being given any context for what that is?
• A'nohn Ihmus TBD
• Phoenix is upset that an amnesiac gets to testify. I guess this is technically the first time in the series, since Yanni Yogi was just faking it.

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He questioned Yogi's ability to testify in 1-4, too, and rightfully so!

And I'm sure the VAs are given some context and get to see the scenes they're acting.

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• "Why don't you enlighten me, Oh Enlightened One?"
• Does it even matter that you can't prove where Ihmus was if you proved that he couldn't be at the place where he claimed to see the murder?
• That could very well be the least exciting prisoner escape in any video game. He just jumps up, lands, and then disappears.
• The suspicious guard shows up again. If this is just a misdirect because they needed the guard to talk a few times, I'll be very surprised.

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Ihmus was hosting his radio show, saying controversial things he will need to make teary apologies for

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• Guessing Zeh'lot killed Inmee because he learned he was a rebel, then the wife killed Zeh'lot because she has a model and there's no other reason for her to have one.
• "I shall curse your entire family and all your disciples for the next eight generations." "Hey! Leave Athena and Apollo alone, buddy!" Sheesh, Phoenix does not care about Trucy at all.
• Rayfa's complaining about illegal immigrants now. There's a joke to be made here, I just know it.
• "What do people associate with Nepal? ... Uh, kukris, we need a guy with a kukri, stat!"
• Phoenix finds a picture of Apollo and Nahyuta with Dhurke as kids, and it takes until someone else says it's Apollo for him to realize it. And don't you dare claim that it's possible to mistake another kid for Apollo or something, we know from Edgeworth that no one changes their haircut once they've five years old.

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well why would you expect to find a picture of Apollo in Khura'in

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I could find a picture of my friend in Canada, but I'd still recognize him!

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I mean, if it was from a time in your life when you already knew him, sure!

But if you saw a picture of your friend as a little kid in Kazakhstan, would you instantly assume it was him?

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Leonhart4 posted...

I mean, if it was from a time in your life when you already knew him, sure!

But if you saw a picture of your friend as a little kid in Kazakhstan, would you instantly assume it was him?

My friends haven't had the same hairstyles for decades.

Unrelated: are there even any other lawyer games besides Ace Attorney? It seems like doctor games, where the only notable series is Trauma Center.

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There are a few AA inspired games, like Aviary Attorney, and there's a Harvey Birdman game, too.

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You also have stuff like Danganronpa, which is clearly inspired by Ace Attorney but is definitely not a lawyer game.

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i bought some amateur game called Burden of Proof off of Steam once, and as long as you don't expect too much and are willing to play a game with really simplistic Unity 3D model environments it scratches an itch

There's also AA fan games like The Contempt of Court

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* Ace Attorney 5 (Dual Destinies) Spoilers *

There's a fan game that I really like... it may have been Turnabout Dragon... in which it takes place in an alternate timeline in which 'Fulbright' ended up getting away in AA5. Basically, they suspected him and put him on the stand but he ended up convincing everyone he's innocent.

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Yeah, I've heard some of the fan games are actually pretty good but I've never played one.

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A lot of the fan games are 1-off cases (some of them can be several hours long though). There are a couple of ones that are multiple cases (4 or 5, presented together as if they are standalone AA games). The Contempt of Court is one of them. I forget the name of the other one, but it is/was very popular in the AA fan community.

The Contempt of Court has a final case that in some ways is brilliant and very creepy, but it also goes on and on (and on).

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I can imagine this being an easy series to make fangames out of if you can find someone to do the sprite work for new characters, yeah.

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There are some community/reusable assets, and some of the popular cases are worked on in groups with delegated responsibilities (I didn't count the names, but I wouldn't be surprised if the number of people who worked on Contempt of Court ran into the dozens).

In addition to reusing AA series sprites and music, they sometimes borrow tracks from other games. For example, the other big fan game I mentioned has a character whose theme is from Sonic 2 (the first time I heard that come out of my speakers I was like, wtf are you kidding me, but I got used to it).

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if you're interested in playing another game by the big cheese behind AA1-3 there's Ghost Trick (i have mixed feelings about it, because the gameplay system is creative but i don't care for the direction the story went in). not a lawyer game, but it requires you to pay attention to your surroundings and make quick deductions to progress (you can keep trying and trying until you get things right, anyway). i'm still debating whether or not to hold onto my copy, but i found the playthrough highly memorable.

any Hotel Dusk fans in the house... ?

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Ghost Trick is a lot of fun, but it's a different sort of game from Ace Attorney. Hotel Dusk is more in the vein of AA, because there are investigation segments and interrogation segments with the protagonist being a former police detective.

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Yeah, at the end of the day I think the answer to the question of 'Is there any other series quite like Ace Attorney?' is 'No'. It requires the dev to create some rather endearing characters and environments and a compelling universe that the player can be effortlessly immersed in, even with things being heavily text-based and yadda yadda. Plus you have those brilliant Capcom soundtracks. A lot of people can try to make games like AA, but to get a project like that done right you need a lot of things to click. Or do enough right that we can ignore the questionable decisions and yap about them while still enjoying the game a lot overall, like a lot of people do with AA2.

I'll never forget what AA1-3 have meant to me over the years, and especially on the first playthroughs. AAI1 is a solid experience too. AAI2... oh man, that story gets really delightfully crazy...

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I do recommend Ghost Trick regardless, even though it's not a game like AA it still has a very similar vibe since it was written by the same person who did AA1-3 and it has a cool mystery story

Yeah, I still highly recommend Ghost Trick. It's a fantastic game.

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If it's lawyer games, the second most notable one would be Harvey Birdman, I feel, with Aviary Attorney next.

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Harvey Birdman is not a game if you want an AA-like experience. The gameplay is almost exactly AA, but it's really only made as a parody. Experiencing the game Harvey Birdman is more like watching the show Harvey Birdman than playing the game Ace Attorney. That said, I still enjoyed it for what it was. Just don't pay more than like $5 for the experience, because there's really not much there.

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I played Turnabout Substitution as a fan game, and the idea behind it is that it's essentially the Apollo Justice equivalent of 1-5, or 4-5 if you will.

I won't be playing any VNs for a while, but I'll keep in mind these AA fan games, thanks everyone.

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• I refuse to believe you can get a bunch of rebels on board to risk their lives when your goal is just to repeal the DC Act.
• I refuse to believe the rebels hauled a crossbow and a pitchfork up to the Inner Sanctum for weapons storage.
• I refuse to believe Ema could get up to the Inner Sanctum quickly enough to cut Phoenix's investigation short.
• "Your overconfidence will be your downfall." No one is sneaking a Star Wars reference past me, game.
• I refuse to believe a nine year-old Khura'inese boy, even a tour guide, knows the word "exonerate."

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• "The accused has now slain two of the most devout clergymen in Khura'inism." Bro, you acknowledged yesterday that Inmee was a rebel!
• Zeh'lot was at the house for two years, so he's probably Lady Kee'ra.
• For some time, I have maintained that the laziest name in AA is "Deid Mann." But "Rheel Neh'mu" may have just destroyed my argument.
• "I have issues with it. I just don't know what they are yet. But that's never stopped me before!"
• "I will deliver a joyous sermon onto you for eight hours straight." As someone who could barely tolerate half-hour religious sermons as a kid, I feel Ema's pain.
• I mean... can't you just tell Ema to test the Warbaa'd Statue for whose blood is on it instead of just saying "eh, it's probably his?"
• Maya finally reveals she can channel spirits, stunning everyone and setting us up for what I presume is the last part of the trial.

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Rheel Neh'mu and Deid Mann are both so bad they're good though. Romein LeTouse is still the laziest name in the series in both languages!

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• It annoys me that I'm not allowed to point out the obvious fact that Bel'eeb must have known about the hideout as well.
• I just realized, how do you train to spirit channel when you have to keep it secret and only one other person in the country can do it, and she's not helping you?
• I actually had this question waaaay back in the original trilogy: I know that Maya summoning a spirit changes her body while leaving some elements the same, but it was never super clear what happens if she summons a male spirit. At least we know, I guess.
• I like the detail of Inmee's concern being how awesome having hair is again.
• He'd better put that kimono back on before exiting Maya's body.
• I approve of the "ghost flying out of the body" surprised pose even if it contradicts every other time Maya or Pearl have channeled things.
• I have to go through this whole rigmarole with the Book of Secrets to prove it's not enough to channel Kee'ra, but you could have just said "Maya only had the book recently, but Kee'ra's been killing people for two years lol."
• Phoenix gets into an argument about whether or not Mrs. Inmee killed Zeh'lot, so he immediately asks the court to have Maya summon him and easily resolve the issue... or not. And yeah, yeah, Maya said it's not a certainty, whatever. We all know this "30% of the time" thing didn't exist in the originals.
• Low-quality breakdown pose from Tah'rust Inmee, 1/10.
• Oh good, he did put the kimono back on.
• We get a little cameo by Dhurke, a man who does not look like he's in his forties, which he must be.

Overall, this is a solid case. It's got some leaps in logic by the prosecutor and moments when the player will instantly know what's going on but can't say it, of course, but them's the breaks, I guess. One thing that's weird is that this is Maya's first appearance in twelve years, right? Because she is barely in the case. I know there's no way around that if she's going to be the defendant again, but really, it's bizarre. We get as much Ahlbi as we do Maya. I enjoyed Tahrust as the "killer," I'll admit I didn't see it coming at all, but that's really the highlight of the case. I enjoyed 6-3, but it's not quite up there for me. I can tell I'll put this around high-mid when I make my list.

Also, the case made a big deal out of how the queen was killed years ago, so I'm predicting now that she's not dead.

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I really like 6-3. It's got some obvious flaws, but it's got some really great high points.

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I love 6-3 - the biggest weakness of it is the pointlessness of Anonymous TBD's testimony and how it really leads nowhere and means nothing in the end (kind of the point of the whole sham trial but it doesn't even really come back to do anything in the end which it should - if a useless testimony takes up a lot of time it should be a Chekov's gun imo, it should reveal some important detail that cracks the case when you least expect it), and the way that after you lose the first trial Phoenix and Maya just get off scot-free. I always felt that they should have fixed this by starting with Phoenix in prison on day 2, and Rayfa shows up and says that she talked to her father and got Phoenix out of prison on the condition that he take her investigating some more, since it would do a really nice job of a) explaining how Phoenix was allowed to roam freely when he should have been imprisoned and b) plays into how Rayfa is mad tsundere for Phoenix. (minor spoilers) It also sets up that Inga has a soft spot for Rayfa through showing and not telling which would have been a nice touch

Other than that it's great. It has the stakes of an epic case, it really puts Phoenix in the thick of the whole Khura'in mess and has him do his Phoenix thing to create a turnabout in even the most dire circumstances, when everyone's against him, and even though Maya's in trouble again I still think it's a great way to reintroduce her. Both diviniation seances are absolute show-stealers imo, I love how both of them so cleverly set up misconceptions about the murder and how Tahrust was able to abuse its flaws to create a nearly unsolvable murder case. And after all these years, getting to see Maya FINALLY use her powers to channel a random victim is an incredible catharsis. I never expected that Tahrust Inmee, the victim, would actually be the most important witness in the case, and everything from the point when he shows up onwards is a series highlight for me.

Also, I absolutely love that the knockoff Steel Samurai thing actually comes into play in the murder. That's just classic AA stuff right there, introducing a small detail that you don't think is going to come back, then it breaks the case wide open

Anagram posted...

For some time, I have maintained that the laziest name in AA is "Deid Mann." But "Rheel Neh'mu" may have just destroyed my argument.

I was very excited for you to get to this part by the way

Yeah, there are so many fun details in this case. And I feel like 6-1 and 6-3 really solved the problem that DD had, where it felt like Phoenix honestly didn't have much of a role to play beyond mentoring Athena and Apollo or any opportunity for meaningful character development. It was such a smart move on their part.

Not sure what they'll do in AA7 to top that though!

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Leonhart4 posted...

I really like 6-3. It's got some obvious flaws, but it's got some really great high points.

I agree, it's got a high overall atmosphere even if it has some dips.

Leonhart4 posted...

Yeah, there are so many fun details in this case. And I feel like 6-1 and 6-3 really solved the problem that DD had, where it felt like Phoenix honestly didn't have much of a role to play beyond mentoring Athena and Apollo or any opportunity for meaningful character development. It was such a smart move on their part.

Not sure what they'll do in AA7 to top that though!

It's strange how there hasn't been any new AA stuff since 2016.

Paratroopa1 posted...

Other than that it's great. It has the stakes of an epic case, it really puts Phoenix in the thick of the whole Khura'in mess and has him do his Phoenix thing to create a turnabout in even the most dire circumstances, when everyone's against him, and even though Maya's in trouble again I still think it's a great way to reintroduce her.

Yes, this is the main strength of the trial.

Paratroopa1 posted...

Also, I absolutely love that the knockoff Steel Samurai thing actually comes into play in the murder. That's just classic AA stuff right there, introducing a small detail that you don't think is going to come back, then it breaks the case wide open

Oh no, I knew in one second that it would be the key to the case, but yeah. One thing I really appreciate is how the theme songs played from the watch and phone strap actually do sound digitized.

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Technically DGS2 was 2017! But yeah, this is the longest gap without any Ace Attorney game in a long time. I do wonder if they're legitimately unsure of where to take the series next.

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I do feel like it's hard to know where to go from here but that involves talking about some AA6 stuff that I can't talk about yet because Anagram isn't there!

One thing I feel is sort of missed is that Phoenix apparently never got together with Maya or Iris (I assume this will not change by the end of the game). I get that they wanted to focus on Apollo and Athena, but then Phoenix just becomes the main character again anyway, and that felt like the natural progression of his character. I also know that anime stuff does tend to dance around that issue anyway, but still.

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Yeah, one of the things that kinda ticks me off the most about AJ is that they completely toss Iris aside and forget she exists when she was a natural love interest.

I feel like they don't want to commit Phoenix to any sort of relationship at this point to avoid upsetting the fanbase.

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Phoenix never had that kind of relationship with Maya, but yeah it's dumb that they never acknowledged Iris again

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Iris and Phoenix's relationship is 100% over after the events of AA3 and they both know it, I really don't see any intent from either of them to try to patch that one up, especially not from Phoenix's end which would be pretty damn weird if you think about it considering what Iris was complicit in putting him through. (She might be in jail anyway)

Phoenix and Maya are extremely just-friends and I think that's wonderful

Face it, the natural love interests here are Phoenix and Edgeworth, but they're gonna queerbait us on that one to the end of time

Paratroopa1 posted...

Iris and Phoenix's relationship is 100% over after the events of AA3 and they both know it, I really don't see any intent from either of them to try to patch that one up, especially not from Phoenix's end which would be pretty damn weird if you think about it considering what Iris was complicit in putting him through. (She might be in jail anyway)

I mean the scene with Iris in the credits seems to imply that they're trying to work on rekindling the old flame!

And it would actually be very much in-character for Phoenix for him to accept her anyway, especially since he basically says as much at the end of 3-5 with "You really are the person I always thought you were."

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also Edgeworth's first and only love is the truth

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LeonhartFour posted...

also Edgeworth's first and only love is the truth

And the Steel Samurai

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Edgeworth will always be tsundere for the Steel Samurai but he can never openly embrace it

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LeonhartFour posted...

I mean the scene with Iris in the credits seems to imply that they're trying to work on rekindling the old flame!

And it would actually be very much in-character for Phoenix for him to accept her anyway, especially since he basically says as much at the end of 3-5 with "You really are the person I always thought you were."

Ehh, I guess it might kinda imply, but I still got a mostly "they're moving on" vibe from the whole thing. Phoenix can believe in Iris being a good person but still want to move on!

I think this might just as much be a problem with AA4 completely blowing up all of Phoenix's relationships and AA5 and AA6 having to slowly repair them though

I will not stand for this denial of Edgeworth's wistful pining for "that man"