Board 8 > Anagram Aces Ace Attorney Topic 5: Ghost of Morality (spoilers)

(+) Yeah! (+)

Maya is always going to take shots at Phoenix, no matter how accomplished he is!

Speaking of which, this is the first Phoenix/Maya vs. Edgeworth case since...1-3

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I just realized the name of the case is probably a reference to the fact this case is a full nostalgia one.

Yeah, it's kinda crazy how good SoJ is at developing Apollo after two games where he got shafted.

I'm actually really interested in seeing where they'll take the series from here.

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GavsEvans123 posted...

Has Ace Attorney ever had a recurring character die?

DGS2 kills off a recurring character, but that's the only real time unless you want to count Manfred or Misty.

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I have a headcanon in which the next game would have a story where Apollo decides he wants to learn how justice systems in various countries work so he can help build Kura'in's one.

So he would travel the world, and each case would be in a different country. We could have slightly different court gimmicks for each case, different variations of The Judge, different prosecutors (maybe some old ones) and randomly bump into some old characters in the meantime. And the main plot could be related to some international crime syndicate similarly to AAI.

This is a way to have more Apollo without necessarily trapping him in Kura'In.

• I had to reset my computer and stupidly forgot to save my bullet points, so I lost the first five minutes of the trial. Sorry!
• Edgeworth and Phoenix having banter again is fun partly because theirs is friendly? I guess Klavier's was friendly, too, but screw Klavier.
• "Mr Wright, are there any last meaningful bluffs you'd like to present to this court?"
• I enjoy Athena and Trucy showing up for two seconds, then ejecting themselves from the plot.
• TESTIMONY: -- Nick Is A Jerk Face! --
• Larry also had a time travel experience. A faceless NPC also clammed up when time travel was brought up. So everyone is in on this, I assume, except Ellen, Larry, and maybe Sorin.
• First a Gumshoe reference, now a reference to Edgeworth's Logic ability?
• I, uh, wasn't expecting the time travel plot to be explained so early. I thought I was being clever!
• I like how Athena shows up again for the investigation, then Phoenix doesn't invite her along and just takes Maya.

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I feel like part of the reason SoJ ended the way it did was because they knew they couldn't keep trying to juggle three attorneys, so they had Apollo stay in Khura'in. Whether that means they continue with Phoenix and Athena or just Apollo, I think that's the dilemma they're in now.

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That sounds like a fun idea but might be more expensive to pull off since they need to make more new assets than usual.

LeonhartFour posted...

I feel like part of the reason SoJ ended the way it did was because they knew they couldn't keep trying to juggle three attorneys, so they had Apollo stay in Khura'in. Whether that means they continue with Phoenix and Athena or just Apollo, I think that's the dilemma they're in now.

Yeah...
In another timeline AJ was successful in establishing Apollo as Phoenix's successor so he could carry the torch and let Phoenix 'retire' in peace.

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LeonhartFour posted...

I feel like part of the reason SoJ ended the way it did was because they knew they couldn't keep trying to juggle three attorneys, so they had Apollo stay in Khura'in. Whether that means they continue with Phoenix and Athena or just Apollo, I think that's the dilemma they're in now.

Maybe thats the plan, but if so, it sure wasnt wise to end it with a promise of Phoenix telling him about his mother.

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eh they can keep putting that off

my pipe dream is that Trucy will be 18 in the next game so she graduates from high school and decides to study abroad and teams up with Apollo in Khura'in because why not

oh and then they kill off Lamiroir right after Apollo starts bonding with his mother because his life kinda sucks that way

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Why bring in Trucy when you already have Rayfa?

But really, Id say that but for Lamiroire, it feels like theyve pretty much completed Apollo as a character. Although, I would also say that for Phoenix, so eh.

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• Did Investigation Day 2. There was nothing to make jokes about, so now I'm at Trial Day 2.

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• Wow, Edgeworth is determined to remain unmarried, eh?
• "I have the sharp eyes of an artist! Don't you believe me?" "No."
• Didn't see the memory twist coming.
• I like how Phoenix keeps saying Maya caused the bloodstain.
• "More than meets the eye" only makes people think of Transformers, game.
• I was really hoping the killer wouldn't be Sephiroth, but so be it.
• Paused at the second part of the trial.

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I'm still of the opinion that it would be more interesting to follow Apollo's adventures restoring his father's old law firm in Khura'in, which is still a huge task he has ahead of him despite of how far he's come - Justice is still far from restored in Khura'in, after all! - than it would be to follow, uh, Phoenix and Athena in whatever they're doing. I dunno though, I still kinda wonder if they just don't have any ideas of what to do now.

Also I think it's really funny that 6-6 really plays up this whole idea of like, it's Phoenix/Maya vs Edgeworth! For old time's sake! But literally the only cases in which the three characters were all in the same courtroom together, regardless of role, were 1-2, 1-3, and 1-4, and 1-3 was the only case where none of them were on trial. It's crazy when you think back on it and you realize that Turnabout Samurai is like, THE classic Ace Attorney case.

Anagram posted...

Wow, Edgeworth is determined to remain unmarried, eh?

Well, they're never gonna get Edgeworth and Phoenix together, so

Paratroopa1 posted...

I'm still of the opinion that it would be more interesting to follow Apollo's adventures restoring his father's old law firm in Khura'in, which is still a huge task he has ahead of him despite of how far he's come - Justice is still far from restored in Khura'in, after all! - than it would be to follow, uh, Phoenix and Athena in whatever they're doing. I dunno though, I still kinda wonder if they just don't have any ideas of what to do now.

I'm certain it's that they have no idea of where to go with the series. I'll talk more about this in my postgame write-up.

Paratroopa1 posted...

Also I think it's really funny that 6-6 really plays up this whole idea of like, it's Phoenix/Maya vs Edgeworth! For old time's sake! But literally the only cases in which the three characters were all in the same courtroom together, regardless of role, were 1-2, 1-3, and 1-4, and 1-3 was the only case where none of them were on trial. It's crazy when you think back on it and you realize that Turnabout Samurai is like, THE classic Ace Attorney case.

That's also an interesting point, but I can see the appeal in ending things with this case if you're worried that it might be the last case ever.

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If AA6 is the series finale I think I'm at peace with that

I'm not

Gimme more games!

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LordoftheMorons posted...

I'm not

Gimme more games!

This! Its like Danganronpa, I just want more

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Like T&T, they could end the series here and have it feel complete, but I'll still take more games if they're willing to make them!

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Paratroopa1 posted...

If AA6 is the series finale I think I'm at peace with that

this but for cynical reasons

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• 26 year-old surgeon, huh? Okay. How do you even pivot careers from surgeon to head butler of the family you were going to marry into? See, I knew immediately when told that the girl's boyfriend had been a surgeon that Sephiroth could be it, but I discounted that because the change of careers was too weird.
• I like how Phoenix's X-ray shows his hair spikes, that's cute and terrifying.
• Phoenix directly tells the audience that "time standing still" for Sephiroth makes him another time traveler, as if the theme wasn't obvious enough.
• Busting out the Themis references, I see. That's not a Greek god you see mentioned often. Someone opened a Wikipedia page for this one.
• Going to a fancy wedding in a kimono: the Maya way.
• We close out the series with a line spoken by an ancillary character who will never be referenced again: "I'm truly blessed to have you." Yes, Sorin Sprocket, guy with that form of amnesia from 40 First Dates, we sure are blessed to have this series.

I have no idea what to think of this one, honestly. It's not very good, to be honest? Like, it's a low-tier case for sure. You know in five seconds that Sephiroth did it, you know in five seconds why he did it, the only question is how, and even most of the 'how' is answered in five seconds.

I feel like they didn't take full advantage of the time traveler shtick, either. When I read the name of this case, I thought it would be something crazy like there's actual evidence of time travel, and everyone has to puzzle through things together to arrive at a wacky solution. That happens, but it lasts like ten seconds.

I can imagine this being a great nostalgia thing in 2017, when it's been thirteen years since Phoenix and Maya did stuff together, but for me, the guy who played his first game less than a year ago, it's a total nothing. Like, I'm imagining someone playing MGS1 for the first time, then MGS4 a few months later, and the nostalgia bombs just not landing. This is how I imagine this case would be for long-time fans.

As the potentially last case in the series, I guess it's serviceable. One last Phoenix-Maya-Edgeworth-Larry thing together, I see the appeal, but it just comes across as a random pointless adventure, which I get it the point but also robs it of having any impact. 5-6 did a much better job of being a random pointless adventure that's still unique and memorable in its own way.

It's sort of fun to have Edgeworth back, but the fun is exclusively in his back-and-forth with Phoenix, because he otherwise does nothing of interest. There was never a moment in this case when I was like "Yeah, that's a real Edgeworth moment." He could have been Klavier for all it matters.

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Anagram posted...

One last Phoenix-Maya-Edgeworth-Larry thing together

See that's the thing, they didn't even go all in on the nostalgia. If they had, they would've brought Gumshoe back, so even as a nostalgiabait case it's lackluster.

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Anagram posted...

Busting out the Themis references, I see. That's not a Greek god you see mentioned often. Someone opened a Wikipedia page for this one.

the academy in 5-3 is also called "Themis"

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LeonhartFour posted...

the academy in 5-3 is also called "Themis"

Forgot about that!

hombad46 posted...

See that's the thing, they didn't even go all in on the nostalgia. If they had, they would've brought Gumshoe back, so even as a nostalgiabait case it's lackluster.

"We've got the budget for three new character models, and we need a defendant, a red herring, and a killer."

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Yeah 6-6 is really dull. I would say it drags the game down, but 6-4 already does that splendidly. It was certainly a disappointment compared to 5-6 which I really like, anyway.

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Postgame Write-up
So, AA6. This is a strange game to get a read on. I'll start by saying it's good. It's very similar to AA5, in that it's got a high overall score, but only because it doesn't really have many 'low' moments, not because it has a lot of high moments. This is as opposed to like the original trilogy, which has many highs and lows.

It's kind of frustrating to even discuss this game, actually, because its good things work despite the bad things. The worst thing about the game is, of course, Nahyuta, who's just impossibly bad. This guy has no redeeming qualities other than caring about his family, which you only learn in the last section of the game. Information about Nahyuta needed to be dispersed throughout the game for that to work. Compare that to someone like Godot, who's also a huge jerk who does nothing but insult you, but you get new information about him much more steadily. Also, he has actual charisma. Nahyuta is a charisma black hole. Freaking Klavier is better than him, Klavier. To compound matters, he just comes across as incompetent. There was never a moment when I felt like "aw yeah, this guy totally schooled me, he's really a threat." Like, Nahyuta's big win in the game is getting Maya convicted in 6-3, but it's so sudden and so without evidence (he literally does nothing to prove his reverse grip theory after his witness is exposed as a liar) that it doesn't work at all. But Apollo really works in the game, so it's almost possible to forget this.

You know what I just realized? The stakes really raise with each game after the original trilogy. The final bosses of the first three are just a corrupt lawyer, a rich guy who hired an assassin, and a ghost. The fourth game involves the legal system being changed forever, the fifth game involves an international spy ring and space travel, and the sixth game involves a magical kingdom and a rebellion.

And by the way, for a game that puts Maya on the center of the box art, there is a shocking dearth of Maya in this game. She shows up in three cases, of which she only has a significant role in one, and otherwise she's just used as a vehicle for ghost shenanigans. She's barely more important than Trucy and Athena, who each have one case and then do nothing. And even in 6-6, there's nothing she does that couldn't have been done by Athena. Even her trip to Khura'in and all of the subsequent stuff could have been equally performed by Pearl. What I'm saying is that the grand return of Maya after twelve years completely wastes her.

I've seen people describe AA4-6 as a trilogy, which I completely disagree with. You can point to an overarching plot and theme of the original trilogy: Phoenix losing his mentor and having to become an ace attorney on his own. There is nothing trilogy-like about the latter games other than Phoenix finding and training some disciples. These games are just a series of events that happen in a sequence, which is fine, I'm not criticizing that, but it's sure as hell not a trilogy.

I said this before, but the series really has too many characters at this point. Phoenix, Apollo, Athena, Trucy, Maya, Pearl, Rayfa, Ema, Edgeworth, Klavier, Blackquill, Larry, and I guess technically Lamioire. Only Franziska and Gumshoe are still missing. I'm not sure what you could even do to fix this. You can't even have a time skip and eliminate some of the cast because they already did that once. I don't really like AA4, but it had the right idea of having Phoenix tackle a legal system that's changing. But since that concept was tossed in the trash, I don't know where you could possibly go in AA7 aside from having another mysterious prosecutor who turns out to not be as bad as he seems. How many mysterious prosecutors have we even had?

• Mysterious: Godot, Blackquill, Nahyuta
• Semi-Mysterious: Edgeworth, von Karma, Ga'ran
• Not Mysterious: Franziska, Klavier

I guess you could make a game where each case has a different prosecutor and Phoenix and Athena go through them one at a time, but that would probably be lame because then you couldn't build up a single threat to defeat at the end of the game. I would assume Capcom also has no idea where to go with the series, since they stopped making the games. That's the thing, the natural place to end the series was AA3, and now that they've kept going, I just don't know what you could even do. It's not just that the series has too large a cast, it's also, 'how do you have higher stakes than saving a magical fantasy kingdom?' Are the Glorbulans going to invade and demand our finest lawyer prove Earth didn't launch the satellite that destroyed their home planet of Zorblax? Like, I have no idea what you can even do from this point on.

People like rankings, so here we go.

• Games: AA3 > AA1 > AA6 > AA2 > AA5 > AAI2 > AA4 > AAI
• Protagonists: Edgeworth > Phoenix > Maya > Apollo > Athena > Gregory
• Teenage Girl Sidekicks: Maya > Pearl > Ema > Athena > Rayfa > Kay
• Prosecutors: Godot > Edgeworth > von Karma > Blackquill > Franziska > Ga'ran > Klavier > Nahyuta
• Final Bosses: Godot > von Karma > Phantom > Matt Engarde > Ga'ran > Kristoph Klaiver
• Mystical Powers: Perception > Therapy > Logic Chess > Logic > Magatama

More to come.

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~~~~~ The Official Anagram Ace Attorney Tier List ~~~~

Top Tier
3-5
1-4
2-4
3-4
6-5
5-5
3-1
1-5
4-1
1-2
1-3
E2-3
2-2
6-3

Mid Tier
E2-4
6-2
6-1
3-2
5-3
E2-5
1-1
5-4
5-1
5-6
E2-2
E-4

Low Tier
E2-1
4-4
E-5
6-4
E-2
5-2
6-6
E-1
E-3
2-1
2-3
3-3
4-2
4-3

More to come

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~~~ Lawyer Power Levels ~~~

I was going to just make a ranking of the prosecutors based on how skilled I thought they were, but it spiraled out of control, and now I have this.

https://i.imgur.com/fMeKV3A.png

More to come

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Yeah, Nahyuta was as exciting as a wet mop. And it's kinda frustrating too since it's not like the team couldn't come up with great rival characters, they've done it before. And even Klavier in AJ at least had more style and personality to him.

Speaking of which, I'd also put PLvsPW opponents above Nahyuta. They were slick.

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Naybe they could just use the prosecutors they have?

Between Edgeworth, Blackquill, Franziska and Klavier they have a decent roster now (okay the last two not that much, but they don't quite drag cases down either).

The mystery could be about... anything else, really.

Ive heard PW vs PL leans more toward Layton in the gameplay, which doesnt really interest me.

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Anagram posted...

Ive heard PW vs PL leans more toward Layton in the gameplay, which doesnt really interest me.

For what it's worth, LvW isn't my least favorite AA game even just taken as an AA game alone, lol

The investigation segments are like Layton games, but the court segments are still classic Ace Attorney. I'd say it's worth playing because of a couple of the cases, and the soundtrack is pretty darn great, too.

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The Layton gameplay is pretty painless to get through at least since it doesn't have any outstandingly obtuse puzzles or crazy sliding/chess puzzles.

Also the court gimmick is not the worst out there, though pretty easy.

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There is ONE really hard puzzle but you can just look up puzzle answers anyway

I think LvW is probably more appealing if you're also a Layton fan though since so much of it is the joy of seeing the crossover, they do a good job of having the characters interact

Hmmm, thanks.

I suppose the Japanese-only games set in the 1800s are basically the same as the mainline games?

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Yeah, pretty much, though it uses the multi-witness thing from LvW. There's a jury, but that really only matters for one gameplay mechanic.

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LvW is an above average Layton game and a below average AA game (still better than at least AA4, though)

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