Board 8 > Politics Containment Topic 301: Home of Antifa Leadership

(+) Yeah! (+)

UshiromiyaEva posted...

That's a bit of a loaded statement to make. On paper, if police are ACTUALLY doing their job and protecting the people, and aren't just acting like domestic terrorists, they SHOULD get paid more.

Obviously they're showing that's not the case right now, but in a perfect world....

Well his list simultaneously includes "expand recruitment by paying cops more," "defund departments that don't follow our regulations," and "create more civilian first responder positions so we need less police" so you can kind of see how increasing pay is the odd one out.

Also cops already make pretty good money

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Doesn't that vary heavily depending on their position? I was under the impression that most of the rank and file police force was not making a lot.

Or is this me being coerced by media representation..

HashtagSEP posted...

Am I missing something or is Bernie's list basically "Do what we're supposed to be doing now, anyway, but "better." "

I'm not sure that's going to fix anything.

Nah honestly a lot of these are pretty good

Civil liability for police screwups is not a given so that's big. Demilitarizing is big (though I must also point out Bernie wants to stop more militarization, not truly demilitarize. More compromise!). Civilian first responders are big. Community oversight with actual tangible authority over the police is big.

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Bernie is trying to do things that can actually work (not just pass, although that's a big part of it, but actually work). The open insurrection a lot of people are advocating here will not work, you will lose and pressure will only be increased until you surrender.

On a side note, qualified immunity is basically "ignorance of the law excuses police officers from liability" so it's quite shocking the Supreme Court ever promulgated this doctrine. It needs to be swiftly repealed.

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UshiromiyaEva posted...

Doesn't that vary heavily depending on their position? I was under the impression that most of the rank and file police force was not making a lot.

Or is this me being coerced by media representation..

Yeah it varies but the average and medians I see fall in the mid 50k range

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I dunno, it still feels like more of a "There are bad apples and we need to root them out" approach moreso than what's actually needed.

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I don't see why defunding the police is what people want. Isn't that just going to make the violence worse? In my opinion the first step is solving the issue of accountability.

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HashtagSEP posted...

I dunno, it still feels like more of a "There are bad apples and we need to root them out" approach moreso than what's actually needed.

Well yeah but the point is Bernie can't come out and say "ABOLISH THE POLICE." That's why he's a compromise candidate.

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If you increase the pay you get police officers who are more comfortable economically and can take greater pride in their work. You also increase the ability to hire better people are there will be more and better applicants.

Basically the same dynamic applies to paying teachers more. It's the opposite of the rooting out bad apples approach. You're trying to change the systematic causes of the problems.

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https://www.newsy.com/stories/how-police-have-targeted-press-during-protests/

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HeroDelTiempo17 posted...

Well yeah but the point is Bernie can't come out and say "ABOLISH THE POLICE." That's why he's a compromose candidate.

Why can't he? His campaign is currently suspended. There's no reason to compromise on beliefs.

Unless he really does believe there aren't bigger issues.

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HashtagSEP posted...

Am I missing something or is Bernie's list basically "Do what we're supposed to be doing now, anyway, but "better." "

I'm not sure that's going to fix anything.

He's not been known for his plans, give him some slack

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HashtagSEP posted...

Why can't he? His campaign is currently suspended. There's no reason to compromise on beliefs.

Unless he really does believe there aren't bigger issues.

Because he's not stupid. Why should he propose plans that have no chance of working?

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BetrayedTangy posted...

I don't see why defunding the police is what people want. Isn't that just going to make the violence worse? In my opinion the first step is solving the issue of accountability.

Defunding is part of accountability.

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UshiromiyaEva posted...

Doesn't that vary heavily depending on their position? I was under the impression that most of the rank and file police force was not making a lot.

Or is this me being coerced by media representation..

I would assume city cops make a lot more than regular cops, just as city teachers make a lot more than regular teachers (usually). Add in mass overtime (44 hours a week), and you have effectively increased their pay by an additional 150+%... which is paid for by the taxpayers.

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As for the slow burn plan, I'd make two minor changes.

1. Have their shifts be 18 hours.
2. No overtime pay.

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HashtagSEP posted...

Why can't he? His campaign is currently suspended. There's no reason to compromise on beliefs.

Unless he really does believe there aren't bigger issues.

He's still a senator and politician.

And....yeah this is probably in line with what he actually believes.

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Umbreon posted...

As for the slow burn plan, I'd make two minor changes.

1. Have their shifts be 18 hours.
2. No overtime pay.

Illegal and likely the city doesn't have insurance for them after a certain length of time, which means them getting injured (which increases exponentially the longer they work and possibly make mistakes that cost lives due to being tired) increases significantly. Getting injured while being forced to work illegally is just paying them off even more in a lawsuit.

These ideas yinz are throwing out are terrible from a real life stand point.


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Oh, are we going by laws again? I was under the impression that they didn't matter. What with the police's actions, and people like you defending them

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Umbreon posted...

As for the slow burn plan, I'd make two minor changes.

1. Have their shifts be 18 hours.
2. No overtime pay.

Lots of people are going to die if you do this. No thanks to having a militarized police force that is exhausted and unhappy. They were too trigger-happy when working normal hours.

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Cities could just stop sending out cops. They're not needed!

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red sox 777 posted...

Lots of people are going to die if you do this. No thanks to having a militarized police force that is exhausted and unhappy. They were too trigger-happy when working normal hours.

What they really seem to misunderstand is that the less you pay cops or the more you force to quit, the less trained ones you get in return or the less qualified ones. While probably 99.9% cops are good people (good people make mistakes also) and only .1% are bad people, the less and less they are paid the less the qualifications have to be for cops because people will rather do other things. For people who claim that ACAB (somehow, the logic on that blows my mind), having them all quit just spreads them out into other jobs and replaces them with an even less trained force (except for the people arguing for straight up no police at all, in which, that wouldn't last long before people were begging for cops again).

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HashtagSEP posted...

Well, as long as those neighborhood gangs aren't stepping in front of the looters or knocking their hats off, right?

I mean gangs stepping in are typically trying to get rid of the would be looters. Why block the way or assault when your intention is primarily to get them to fuck off and never come back, under threat? You save that for after.

Alternatively they get involved when the looting is actually happening. At which point it's literally happening so there's no assumption necessary. They ain't asking shit either, they're going on the "break our windows, we break your face" standard. Gangs have become the community protectors and put their beef to the side, which is rather interesting to see.

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HeroDelTiempo17 posted...

Defunding is part of accountability.

In theory, sure. But based off what I've seen from schools as well as my old job, I don't think it's effective for two reasons.

1. The police already aren't doing their jobs correctly. So we're going to make it harder to properly train them? Because I guarantee that's where budget cuts are going to go.

2. Salary cuts also results in them doing worse jobs. From what I've learned people don't quit their jobs when you take away money, they just do their jobs worse.

The biggest focus should be on the Justice system as well as making sure specific practices are met with prosecution.

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Umbreon posted...

As for the slow burn plan, I'd make two minor changes.

1. Have their shifts be 18 hours.
2. No overtime pay.

Which would lead real quick to a major change:

3. Live ammo would be used a lot more often.

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Argument always comes down to the same thing. Give cops the safety in their job to not fear for their life and need to have guns. Which, of course, means the populace having their guns removed from them. A cop goes into every shift knowing it takes one messed up person (people who they are actively seeking out in the line of work) to end their life in a second.

That has no bearing in this case, as the cop was just flat out wrong and negligent. But, most of these cases are about the use of lethal force.

Getting MORE funding to police that they have body cams available for every unit is a good idea. Make not having a body cam in use a crime of some sort and also a suspension with means to be fired (negotiating this with the teamsters union will likely be hard as hell, but... Might have to pony up more in wages for this).

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Corrik7 posted...

While probably 99.9% cops are good people

this is quite the statement to make after the past week


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I'd hazard to say that any cop who wakes up these days and is ready to stand against the protestors is a bad cop.

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https://twitter.com/laurenluvsveg/status/1267651282724171777

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Snrkiko posted...

https://twitter.com/laurenluvsveg/status/1267651282724171777

...

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BetrayedTangy posted...

In theory, sure. But based off what I've seen from schools as well as my old job, I don't think it's effective for two reasons.

1. The police already aren't doing their jobs correctly. So we're going to make it harder to properly train them? Because I guarantee that's where budget cuts are going to go.

2. Salary cuts also results in them doing worse jobs. From what I've learned people don't quit their jobs when you take away money, they just do their jobs worse.

The biggest focus should be on the Justice system as well as making sure specific practices are met with prosecution.

Schools are not the best comparison here. First of all, schools do not use state funding to buy riot gear, chemical weapons, and tanks. Cutting off funding for that has an obvious tangible benefit.

Second, the issues with cops are systemic and not going to be fixed by increasing their pay to incentivize individual actors to not be shitty. I'd actually argue teachers have MUCH more individual agency in their system than cops do in theirs. Policing has enormous institutional momentum.

Third, since part of the solution is adding civilians to take over police roles, funds for police are directly competing with those.

Finally, police are already doing a shitty job but I'll backtrack and agree with you LTM and say maybe we can revisit this problem after everything else is done if you think current wages aren't enough

Edit: Also reminder the courts say that the police do not actually have to "protect and serve" and thus are not public servants the same way other public jobs like teachers are.

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Am I missing the 99.9% remark from Corrik, because I'm not seeing it and even I refuse to believe he's that stupid.

https://twitter.com/lib_crusher/status/1268229152299155462?s=21

wh
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HeroDelTiempo17 posted...

Finally, police are already doing a shitty job but I'll backtrack and agree with you LTM and say maybe we can revisit this problem after everything else is done if you think current wages aren't enough

Oh I mean yeah, please don't misunderstand and think I believe that is an issue that should even be remotely on the table right now. I disagree with Bernie bringing it up, I just don't disagree with that in a vacuum necessarily....or at least I didn't, may not be the case anymore, will have to think on it.

While probably 99.9% cops are good people

based on what

there were four officers involved with George Floyds death and it seems like not even 25% of them were good people
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Corrik7 posted...

While probably 99.9% cops are good people (good people make mistakes also) and only .1% are bad people,

So do you think the 4 cops in the George Floyd case just all randomly happened to be part of the .1%? Math people, what are the odds of that.
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Seriously where is that post?

Or did he quite redsox in it meaning I can't see it?

If so WOW what a dumbass.

https://twitter.com/THETonyMorrison/status/1268267047688994816

RE: George Floyd:

• Chauvin now charged with 2nd degree murder
• 3 other officers charged with aiding & abetting murder and manslaughter

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UshiromiyaEva posted...

Or did he quite redsox in it meaning I can't see it?

Yes
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https://gamefaqs.gamespot.com/boards/8-gamefaqs-contests/78738644/940131101

edit: oh didn't notice he quoted red sox

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Grimlyn posted...

https://twitter.com/THETonyMorrison/status/1268267047688994816

RE: George Floyd:
* Chauvin now charged with 2nd degree murder
* 3 other officers charged with aiding & abetting murder and manslaughter

Great in theory, though I am very, very wary of upping the murder degree and him getting off on a technicality as a result.

With the current discussion, ehile it's not reflected in here uh...

Majority of Americans actually support military usage and it's not by a little. Morning consult poll from the weekend showed that yesterday: 58 to 30.

That includes a plurality of Democrats that's almost a majority. Strongly opposed is a bit higher for them (29% to 22%) but somewhat support is higher than somewhat opposed too. Combining it all gets you 48-43, remainder is no opinion/don't know. That's outside the margin of error range.

Republicans unsurprisingly are strong support majority.

Independents though are of note as they'v a majority of support as well. Strong support being the most popular, somewhat support the second.

Age plays some factor but Gen Z is the only one majority opposed. The rest aren't even a plurality, they're majority in support. Even millennials only hit 35% total opposition.

And finally, if we go by ethnicity all are majority in favor but two: Hispanics are a plurality in favor but not quite a majority (48-34) and blacks are a plurality opposed but not quite a majority (37-49).

Ultimately, people support the protests. They've issues with cops. They don't approve of Trump's behavior. But a very notable majority also approves of using the military to take better control.

Edit: link.
https://assets.morningconsult.com/wp-uploads/2020/06/01181629/2005131_crosstabs_POLICE_RVs_FINAL_LM-1.pdf

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Grimlyn posted...

https://twitter.com/THETonyMorrison/status/1268267047688994816

RE: George Floyd:
* Chauvin now charged with 2nd degree murder
* 3 other officers charged with aiding & abetting murder and manslaughter

Finally. Of course we have to hope the courts don't pull any bullshit here.

Reminder that if not for social media, all four of these men wouldn't have even seem a reprimand.

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UshiromiyaEva posted...

Great in theory, though I am very, very wary of upping the murder degree and him getting off on a technicality as a result.

They can adjust the charge if they need to.

The other 3 officers will likely walk, but I think it is good to charge them and to let a jury decide. I am unsure why they didn't charge the Omaha business owner in the shooting death to let a jury decide as well.

I understand it costs money to do this, but when you have enough evidence to at least make a relative case regarding it, it seems like proper justice to attempt it at least.

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Yeah, I believe it was second degree murder, but third degree seems so much more cut and dry if your goal is to get a conviction

Like the video is all the evidence you need to show beyond a reasonable doubt that its third degree. You need more to prove second. He can say he didnt hear Floyds pleas, or that this is how he was trained and to his knowledge it was not lethal, and the prosecution would then have to disprove that.
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Kinglicious posted...

Ultimately, people support the protests. They've issues with cops. They don't approve of Trump's behavior. But a very notable majority also approves of using the military to take better control.

i seriously can't grasp how anyone can believe all four of those things and still think they make logical sense combined

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HashtagSEP posted...

Am I missing something or is Bernie's list basically "Do what we're supposed to be doing now, anyway, but "better." "

I'm not sure that's going to fix anything.

Lol this is almost certainly the same list of things Joe Biden would propose.

Im sure Inviso will find a way to attack Bernie supporters for this.

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Corrik7 posted...

The other 3 officers will likely walk

And why do you believe in the justice system again?
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UshiromiyaEva posted...

Great in theory, though I am very, very wary of upping the murder degree and him getting off on a technicality as a result.

I've been trying to figure out if it means the 3rd degree is replaced with the 2nd degree, or if the 2nd degree charge is just added

CNBC though saying the 2nd degree charge is "in addition to the previous charges against him"

https://www.cnbc.com/2020/06/03/3-more-cops-charged-in-george-floyd-death-other-officers-murder-charge-upgraded.html

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Jakyl25 posted...

Yeah, I believe it was second degree murder, but third degree seems so much more cut and dry if your goal is to get a conviction

Like the video is all the evidence you need to show beyond a reasonable doubt that its third degree. You need more to prove second. He can say he didnt hear Floyds pleas, or that this is how he was trained and to his knowledge it was not lethal, and the prosecution would then have to disprove that.

The police department has said this wasn't how they are trained. This is already been disputed as being how they are trained. So, who knows on that.

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