Board 8 > Politics Containment Topic 300: The Try(hard)-Centennial

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Not_an_Owl posted...

Good. That's exactly what should happen. If a cop is only a cop because they believe the job will literally allow them to get away with murder, then they shouldn't be a cop.

Exactly. The government shouldn't be afraid of the police here. It should be the expectation that bad police are held accountable.

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Nothing says lol2020 like Facebook employees staging a "virtual walkout" in protest of Zuckerberg.

Lmfao leaving the Zoom meeting will show em'!

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A hit and run I hadnt seen

https://twitter.com/sky_lee_1/status/1267514550477377539?s=21
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https://twitter.com/fox5sandiego/status/1267342066062934021?s=21

Hmmmm maybe?
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Who could've thought?

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independent autopsy

https://twitter.com/Yamiche/status/1267533708380327949

shocked faces everyone

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https://twitter.com/niktaylorde/status/1267513985223602176?s=21

...This man just doesnt get it.

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...I don't get what's wrong with what he's saying, exactly?

He says if somebody is coming at a cop with a knife, they should shoot them in the leg instead of shooting to kill. Yes, "unarmed" wasn't the word he meant to use (he's using it as in "no gun"), but his actual quote seems fine?

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Leg shots kill

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I mean so do stab wounds though

His point is "don't shoot to kill," which cops are flat out trained to do, and that's a problem.

He's using "shoot them in the leg instead" in an example of a violent confrontation where said criminal is also trying to kill said cop.

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Leg shots could kill, but isn't it better for a cop to make a shot that has a better chance of survival?

I don't see an issue with what he's saying either

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I mean, I know we're dealing with a lot of bad cops in the past week but I don't think the correct answer is "let themselves get stabbed".

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Isnt it the case that shooting in the leg is far harder to do than shooting in the torso?
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True, which is why I think he is saying they need training for that.

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htaeD posted...

Isnt it the case that shooting in the leg is far harder to do than shooting in the torso?

Yes, which is why they're trained to just shoot to kill.

There's no simple solution as long as guns are involved, is the problem. But Biden's just trying to make a message of "Don't shoot to kill," which is a good message even if the solution isn't so simple. He's saying there's a lot of things that can change, and "shooting to kill" is one of them.

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The point is that Cops shouldnt be shooting anyone at all.

Its a statistical fact that introducing guns into a situation increases the likelihood of violence in all parties.

Our (poorly) trained cops should have the skills and tools to restrain an unarmed person with a knife or something other than shooting them with a gun.

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Another man killed by cops during the protest.

https://twitter.com/rgay/status/1267538415836266497?s=19

I mean if somebody's coming at you with a knife, it's already violent

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I don't see the point in focusing on "don't shoot to kill" when the "don't shoot" part is so much more important than the "to kill" part. You should never aim a gun at anyone unless you're fine with killing them. Focus on getting police to use their guns less, not learning fancy trick shots.
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This is where we're just going to have to disagree, because if somebody's trying to stab somebody, or beat them to death with a baseball bat, or any other kind of assault with a deadly weapon, then I'm perfectly fine with the cops shooting the attacker.

EDIT: I agree "Shoot less" is definitely an answer, but I don't agree with "Never shoot at all."

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HashtagSEP posted...

This is where we're just going to have to disagree, because if somebody's trying to stab somebody, or beat them to death with a baseball bat, or any other kind of assault with a deadly weapon, then I'm perfectly fine with the cops shooting the attacker.

Whats the end of that slope?

I didnt remember you defending George Zimmerman, but youre not far from it.

If the cops instigate a violent situation and then have carte blanche to end it with a gun when it becomes dangerous, you are literally proposing for zero change.


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Zimmerman wasn't even a cop, right? He was just some guy who called 911 (and ignoring their directions) and was following Trayvon Martin, wasn't he? Or have I blended the details from the many, many incidents over the years?

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ChaosTonyV4 posted...

Whats the end of that slope?

I didnt remember you defending George Zimmerman, but youre not far from it.

If the cops instigate a violent situation and then have carte blanche to end it with a gun when it becomes dangerous, you are literally proposing for zero change.

*eyeroll*

Don't use "guy who deliberately stalked and hunted a man, was subsequently attacked by the man he was stalking, and killed his prey in 'self defense'" to try and equate the hypotheticals being proposed here.

His post literally doesn't even say "the cops instigate it". It specifies an assailant already in the act of attacking.

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ChaosTonyV4 posted...

Whats the end of that slope?

I didnt remember you defending George Zimmerman, but youre not far from it.

If the cops instigate a violent situation and then have carte blanche to end it with a gun when it becomes dangerous, you are literally proposing for zero change.

I don't think a random asshole with no legal authority shooting an unarmed kid is all that similar to an actual cop shooting a guy with a knife!

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xp1337 posted...

Zimmerman wasn't even a cop, right? He was just some guy who called 911 (and ignoring their directions) and was following Trayvon Martin, wasn't he? Or have I blended the details from the many, many incidents over the years?

No, you are completely correct

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If a cop instigates violence, then I obviously want them to be held accountable and punished accordingly.

But if there's lunatic with a gun shooting people, or a lunatic with a knife running around stabbing people, then I'm sorry, but I'd like somebody to be able to stop them, and I feel they've forfeited their right to not get shot.

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If you let cops shoot people with knives they'll just start planting knives on the people they kill.

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No he wasnt a cop, but its the same concept. He instigated harassment/violence on a kid who defended himself, and then by SEPs own words

HashtagSEP posted...

or any other kind of assault with a deadly weapon, then I'm perfectly fine with the cops shooting the attacker

Personally, and I say this as probably the biggest guns rights person who posts in this topic, I dont think guns should be taken/used outside of your residence.

If you fancy yourself a cop or a security guard or whatever the fuck Zimmerman thought he was, learn to win a fight without murder, or assess the situation, call for backup, retreat, etc.

Just my opinion.

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Kenri posted...

If you let cops shoot people with knives they'll just start planting knives on the people they kill.

Good thing this whole hypothetical is based around teaching not to shoot to kill, but instead to wound and incapacitate.

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Kenri posted...

If you let cops shoot people with knives they'll just start planting knives on the people they kill.

I thought I saw a knife!

You see it all the time.

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UshiromiyaEva posted...

Another man killed by cops during the protest.

https://twitter.com/rgay/status/1267538415836266497?s=19

This is more important that the current argument btw

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Inviso posted...

Good thing this whole hypothetical is based around teaching not to shoot to kill, but instead to wound and incapacitate.

Theres no such thing with a gun. Thats the fucking point, oh my god please listen.

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KamikazePotato posted...

This is more important that the current argument btw

It actually fits perfectly with this argument because it looks like this man was shot!

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Now, I'm absolutely in favor of not all cops carrying guns, and only those specifically and specially trained to react to violent threats, but that's certainly not going to come about overnight, and I was merely stating that Biden's overall message seems fine to me, since he's not advocating "Yeah man shoot everybody, shoot 'em right in the leg." He's saying "In situations where shooting is necessary, don't shoot to kill."

Which, again, is not a simple answer, and doesn't come close to solving the whole problem, but he's just saying it's one thing that can change.

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HashtagSEP posted...

Now, I'm absolutely in favor of not all cops carrying guns, and only those specifically and specially trained to react to violent threats, but that's certainly not going to come about overnight

I was actually just in the middle of proposing that kind of setup as a middle-ground/"compromise" position that I'd like to think could pick up some traction with the public on the whole but I'm probably way too optimistic there.

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There is no such thing as shooting to wound/incapacitate. Any shot taken in any circumstance has a good chance to kill someone, whether via blood loss or just hitting the wrong spot.

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You always aim for the center of mass though. Less likely to have stray bullets kill civilians, if you're shooting you're (supposed to be) in a situation where stopping the target immediately is imperative, and shooting limbs doesn't even decrease lethality much anyways if I remember the stats.

This is coming from a Canadian who doesn't want guns in the same province as them, so take that how you will.

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Then it's a misguided attempt at a good message at least. I don't think it's a quote to particularly villainize Biden over.

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HashtagSEP posted...

Then it's a misguided attempt at a good message at least. I don't think it's a quote to particularly villainize Biden over.

Yeah, but villainizing Biden is the only thing Tony contributes to these topics anymore.

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KamikazePotato posted...

This is more important that the current argument btw

Really kind of blown away that people just glossed over it for their interpersonal argument, TBQH. A bit eye opening.

Inviso posted...

Yeah, but villainizing Biden is the only thing Tony contributes to these topics anymore.

This man could be our President and his opinion on Law Enforcement is more relevant than ever.

Why are you like this? Its fucking insufferable. Do you ever get tired of just being a sarcastic ass instead of addressing the content of my posts?

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How about instead of always going to the gun, we train police officers to use stun guns or pepper spray? How about instead of instigating violence we train police to de-escalate and use words to resolve situations? That sounds way better than "shooting to wound, not kill".

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ChaosTonyV4 posted...

This man could be our President and his opinion on Law Enforcement is more relevant than ever.

Why are you like this? Its fucking insufferable. Do you ever get tired of just being a sarcastic ass instead of addressing the content of my posts?

Do you ever get tired of pretending you give a shit about progressive ideals while doing everything in your power to smear and downplay the Democratic nominee who will at least POTENTIALLY enact some of those ideals, compared to the racist narcissist who would rather see progressives eradicated from the face of the Earth at the best of his party? In the middle of massive riots, and following a post about yet another unarmed black man being shot by the police, you felt it was of the utmost importance to highlight Joe Biden making a well-intentioned, albeit naive statement about the use of excessive force. You treat this statement as equally important and disqualifying compared to the man who literally used the quote "when the looting starts, the shooting starts".

Bernie lost. He was not as popular, and attitudes like yours did absolutely NOTHING to swing voters in his favor. Get over it and stop throwing a prolonged tantrum that ultimately puts the progressive movement's very survival at risk, and makes your entire breadth of Bernie support come across as the virtue signaling of someone for whom none of this has any sort of impact whatsoever.

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You are literally whatabouting Donald Trump while simultaneously doing the She lost, get over it about Bernie. You seem to genuinely have a problem with me criticizing Joe even when he deserves it.

From a rhetorical perspective, you are fucking indistinguishable from MAGA.

I ask again, why are you like this?


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I'm officially treating you people the same as MAGAs who still talk about Hillary's emails.

Simply unbelievable.

shoot to wound is not a concept that makes any sense. torso is the most accurate spot and the largest mass, which matters in a split second decision. if you don't intend to shoot to kill you don't use a gun but something else. that's just a very hollywood-esque argument.

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oh no we've re-entered the bad place

the bad place is 2016 you see

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Grimlyn posted...

independent autopsy

https://twitter.com/Yamiche/status/1267533708380327949

shocked faces everyone

This is exactly why the video is so important. Had it not been caught on camera, nothing would've happened. They would've trotted out their fake autopsy report, given this cop a warning, and nothing would've changed. This is why people are so mad. What percentage of cop related deaths in the past were cops in the wrong? Lets be extremely generous and say 1 in 10 (again, extremely generous and I'm not trying to relitigate any examples that we even know of). That's why people are protesting and rioting.

Any solution that doesn't involve mandatory body cams isn't a solution.

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For people who actually care and aren't here for the same pointless back and fourth argument they've done a dozen times to no end, the Louisville Police Chief has been fired by the mayor because he ordered all officers to turn off their body cams, after which the fatal shooting by the police occurred.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.nbcnews.com/news/amp/ncna1221351

Shoot to wound is a concept from someone who watches too many movies, not someone who is saying anything worth a damn.