Current Events > "Dark Souls needs an easy mode!!!"

(+) Yeah! (+)

i think it's perfectly fair that if the devs don't want it to have an easy mode then it doesn't but its very embarrassing how Gamers act whenever says they'd like it to have an easy mode or at least be more accessible

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I just want a pity block to appear, R1 it, and have Super Luigi kindle the flames for me. Is that so much to ask?

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Dark Souls is carefully crafted around the idea of risk and reward; do you push deeper into the unknown to find the next bonfire, or do you go back, spend your souls, and improve your character? Thematically, that's part of the game, and if the devs wanted to change that, they would have

And sales numbers dont lie; people fucking love it
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NinjaBreakfast posted...

i think it's perfectly fair that if the devs don't want it to have an easy mode then it doesn't but its very embarrassing how Gamers act whenever says they'd like it to have an easy mode or at least be more accessible

What does easier and more accessible look like though? What does that do to the game?

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NinjaBreakfast posted...

i think it's perfectly fair that if the devs don't want it to have an easy mode then it doesn't but its very embarrassing how Gamers act whenever says they'd like it to have an easy mode or at least be more accessible

Okay but if you have an easy mode so more people can play, they wont be playing Dark Souls. Itll be a different game.

I dont have some misconception that playing harder games makes me smarter or more patient or better than others. I just like the accomplishment from finishing them. Putting easier modes changes that.

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I'm sure this has been said already but easy mode is summoning someone else that's good to help you beat the area and/or boss. Hell, even a bad player can help aggro things away from you so you can backstab or just take cheap shots at.

Easy mode is also farming the first areas over and over and upgrading your health. It's not fun but it's an option the game gives you. Use all of your resources. Be cheap. I'm of the belief that if there's a cheesy way to beat an enemy or boss it's totally fair game. They put it in there so they wanted someone to try it.

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DesertPenguin09 posted...

I'm sure this has been said already but easy mode is summoning someone else that's good to help you beat the area and/or boss. Hell, even a bad player can help aggro things away from you so you can backstab or just take cheap shots at.

Usually. Of course there's the occasional boss where summoning probably hurts you more than it helps thanks to the health increase and the very high likelihood your partner will die early.

Unfortunately those are usually the hardest bosses in the game lol.

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But summoning Solaire to fight with you against Ornstein and Smough is so fucking cool!

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DesertPenguin09 posted...

But summoning Solaire to fight with you against Ornstein and Smough is so fucking cool!

I've never done it. When I played the first I was a "No summoning" purist.

I don't have as much time for games these days though so I summon with no shame if I start to get annoyed with a boss. With DS2 Fume Knight pissed me off so much I used a player summon. And it probably took 10 tries with summoning because people would die. Of course it was kinda my fault. The successful attempt was when I was good about baiting the boss so my partner could heal.

In BB I used NPC summons for bosses once in a while. Tbh, that's probably when I realized it's actually pretty fun to play with summons once in a while, especially on NG+.

When I play DS again you can bet your ass I'll summon to wreck the game lol.

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Jabodie posted...

Usually. Of course there's the occasional boss where summoning probably hurts you more than it helps thanks to the health increase and the very high likelihood your partner will die early.

Unfortunately those are usually the hardest bosses in the game lol.

I think Fume Knight was supposedly designed that way.


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MRW1215 posted...

Realistically, all they'd have to do for an easy mode is reduce damage enemies deal, increase damage you do, and block all PvP elements. Maybe allow you to keep all or some of a portion of your souls when you die. Same basic game, but less punishing and frustrating. I don't see a problem.

So, all the things that are present in the game already.

Reduced enemy damage - better armor
increase damage you do - upgrading weapons
block PvP - offline
keep your souls on death - ring of sacrifice

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I'd be fine with an easy mode in, just make it so easy mode players can only play with other eady mode players. This way they get their reduced difficulty and the elitists dont have to play with em.

Some things for the easy server
Reduce dmg from enemy npcs
Increase dmg dealt by player
Lose less souls on death (1/2?)
Increase charges for spells
Increase durability weapons/armor
Dev Messages hinting at upcoming traps
More summonable NPCs

Just a few ideas.

Does it take away from the experience, imo yes, but for the people who want it, there it is. Other players being on a mode with this wouldn't hurt my experience
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There should be an easy mode but tbqh, without difficulty these games kind of suck. If people still wanna play it, that's just more money in From's pocket
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DS2 had it with limited enemy spawns.

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I always felt like the entire premise of the games, that make it special, is testing your own selfishness and making you constantly choose risk/reward or pass something over and progress a bit more. You are nearly dead, no estus flasks left, there's three enemies between you and the glowing ball on the corpse in the distance. Are you going to risk death, lose what you have, start back over from your last save to do it again? Are you gonna head back, play it safe, save, and approach it differently, or is it even worth going deeper instead of progressing ahead to the next bonfire? It's a mental challenge constantly, with tough decisions.

You make it easy, then it's just another Fable, or Witcher, or every single other 3rd person RPG that you have played 500 times before. Those decisions don't exist because it's just easy to kill through, collect everything, and move on with little effort. That's not the intention of the game, and while there are hundreds of games like each other, it did something different to set itself apart and killing it's identity kills it's originality. It is a series that does it different, that that shouldn't change. There's no reason to cave on the concept to make it appeal to the people who don't want to put in the effort.

Sorry if that makes me sound like an elitist, I usually despise hard games, Ninja Gaiden can fuck off. The reason why I stuck it out through Dark Souls, with the initial intention of hating it and rage quitting it forever after a couple hours, was the risk/reward, the discovery and the fact that it was challenging but not unfair. I've been playing games since Atari and it stood out so much because it made me feel excitement and accomplishment in a game which is rare anymore. If it had an easy mode, I would have played it through and been like "Yeah, that was okay" and never thought about it again.

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It offends me greatly that these topics always get so many posts
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UnholyMudcrab posted...

It offends me greatly that these topics always get so many posts

some people get worked up. I couldnt careless if they add easy mode as long as it doesnt effect the core game.

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Stalolin posted...

Dark Souls does its best to have every part of it focused on its goals as a game and its themes. Its why theres an explanation for just about every game mechanic. You respawn at bonfires because youre undead. You see the phantoms of other players because of ripples in time. Items are placed carefully to reveal stories. Etc. etc. Similarly, when enemies kill you, they dont gloat over your corpse or laugh, they turn their asses around and walk back to where they were before. They do this because you are insignificant, they dont care about you, and this is used to show a cold, harsh, dreary world. As with all these other things, Dark Souls is difficult also to get across this point. This world is brutal. But through patience, perseverance, and sometimes a little help from the kindness of strangers, you can come out the other side. Therefore: it is hard in order to show this point, not just for the sake of it.

So what's your point?

That's still there if there's an easy option and for the people who take the option the experience is the same.

So: easy mode. Easy mode would dilute this theme

How?

Instead, if you want to win you need to do it the hard way and then, when it happens, huge swathes of people walk away raving about the game. Just see its dedicated fan base.

The Darks Souls fanbase is one of the most toxic in all of gaming...

This topic alone demonstrates that and you're not even hardcore fans.

People would be praising Dark Souls because it's a good game either way. If it had an optional easy mode more people would walk away praising it.

You also don't, people use mods and trainers all the time. None of them have ever effected your enjoyment of the game or the fanbase. It's such a nonsense excuse.

Multiple times it has been explained to you

No it hasn't.

Just "It is the way it is." No actual explanation. You've now added "It wouldn't be the same with that option" but provided no explanation either.

but then you just ignore it or say something about subtitles and volume controls.

Because it's the same thing.

As I said - accessibility relates to ones ability to play a game - the developer has no obligation to the consumer,

Again an excuse, not an explantion.

"The developer has no obligiation to do it." is not a reason to oppose it.

The developer has no obligation to not program the game to crash ever 13 minutes. But it would dumb to program the game to do that and you should ask why they want to.

Audio and subtitles is about the ability to experience it at all.

Disagree. They are fundamental which is why all modern games have them. Contrast and brightness too. If you can't see or hear a game, it's hard or impossible to play.

The options are for the player to tailor so they have a much better experience.

There is no difference between an easy mode and subtitle/volume/contrast/brightness options.

Hell you have the option in Dark Souls 2 (pre Scholar) to just turn the brightness and contrast up and never be in the dark. Did that option ruin the game for you? No you just didn't do it.

So why no easy mode - because this way there is only one path to achieve the challenge. With one path, the challenge is more or less the same for everyone, all the little phantoms in the cold cold world, that you see as you play, you know theyre going through the same thing. Its the same for everyone. Its about overcoming that challenge.

None of that goes away because there's an optional easy mode. You still get all of that.

You're argument amounts to "People playing on easy won't have the same experience I did, therefore it's wrong" but you can't explain why it's wrong.

Everyone still has the same path you had unless they choose to play on easy. Same as everyone had the same path you had unless they turned the volume up louder so they could hear things.

I feel like at this point youll still come back and say I havent answered the why.

Well that's because you haven't.

I never can fully satisfy that

Well admitting it is the first step

The second is not being opposed to options in video games.

because when you drill down into the reasons it becomes a difference of opinion as to whether that stuff is important and to what degree different modes affect the core experience. At the end of the day, FromSoftware made a creative decision

This isn't an opinion thing. The question was "Why?"

You've gone right back to the excuse of "Because they said so."

Okay but "Why"?

That's not an opinion, it's a question. One you have no explanation for. Just "because it is!"
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MabusIncarnate posted...

I always felt like the entire premise of the games, that make it special, is testing your own selfishness and making you constantly choose risk/reward or pass something over and progress a bit more. You are nearly dead, no estus flasks left, there's three enemies between you and the glowing ball on the corpse in the distance. Are you going to risk death, lose what you have, start back over from your last save to do it again? Are you gonna head back, play it safe, save, and approach it differently, or is it even worth going deeper instead of progressing ahead to the next bonfire? It's a mental challenge constantly, with tough decisions.

You make it easy, then it's just another Fable, or Witcher, or every single other 3rd person RPG that you have played 500 times before. Those decisions don't exist because it's just easy to kill through, collect everything, and move on with little effort. That's not the intention of the game, and while there are hundreds of games like each other, it did something different to set itself apart and killing it's identity kills it's originality. It is a series that does it different, that that shouldn't change. There's no reason to cave on the concept to make it appeal to the people who don't want to put in the effort.

Sorry if that makes me sound like an elitist, I usually despise hard games, Ninja Gaiden can fuck off. The reason why I stuck it out through Dark Souls, with the initial intention of hating it and rage quitting it forever after a couple hours, was the risk/reward, the discovery and the fact that it was challenging but not unfair. I've been playing games since Atari and it stood out so much because it made me feel excitement and accomplishment in a game which is rare anymore. If it had an easy mode, I would have played it through and been like "Yeah, that was okay" and never thought about it again.

This argument falls entirely part by one word

"optional"

Sure you're right, if they made the game easy for everyone, that would suck.

But nothing you just ranted about goes away by an optional easy mode someone choose. Just like nothing went away because someone modded the game or turned the brightness up to make it easier for them. You still had that experiene.

You picking the easy mode and then complaining it's too easy falls on you. It's an excuse.

"The game had volume controls so I had to play it on mute and it sucked. Therefore the game needs to not have volume controls!" is dumb.
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What?

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oh lord.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=9Deg7VrpHbM

andri_g posted...

What? The maxim for any game is it is the gamer's experience with[in] the developer's design.

There are three things that always should be set or modified only by the gamer: 1) controls mapping; 2) manual save; 3) camera position.

Developers can include other game designs or mechanics, but excluding, altering, obstructing, or abducting the gamer's experience settings violates gamer autonomy basics.
.

Edit: Everything else in the game is at the developer's discretion.

nobody is saying it's not

they're asking why

and no Dark Souls fan can ever explain that

like you they just go "cuz it is!"
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UnfairRepresent posted...

This isn't an opinion thing. The question was "Why?"

You've gone right back to the excuse of "Because they said so."

Okay but "Why"?

That's not an opinion, it's a question. One you have no explanation for. Just "because it is!"

Sure, if you wilfully ignore all that other stuff I said about game design. I mean at a certain point the question why cant take you any further. There is no new information. We will never know in any more detail.

You didn't explain why at all. You just said "Because it is" and that you would be angry if other people had fun playing it

You didn't have any reasoning at all.
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It reminds me of The Simpsons when Homer meets the Space Coyote. This is just your memory. I cant give you any new information.

UnfairRepresent posted...

The Darks Souls fanbase is one of the most toxic in all of gaming...

Not sure where people get this from, its really not. Well maybe the hardcore PvP players can be really toxic but thats a very small subset of the community.

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How about just not playing a shitty game series ?

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RiKuToTheMiGhtY posted...

How about just not playing a shitty game series ?

how about no

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Then dont complain and git gud as all the dark souls fans will tell you.

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RiKuToTheMiGhtY posted...

How about just not playing a shitty game series ?

Actually though...

Again, once DS games become "easy" for you, they become remarkably not good.

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RiKuToTheMiGhtY posted...

Then dont complain and git gud as all the dark souls fans will tell you.

I am good lol

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Stalolin posted...

It reminds me of The Simpsons when Homer meets the Space Coyote. This is just your memory. I cant give you any new information.

Haha

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UnfairRepresent posted...

like you they just go "cuz it is!"

<_<_>_> UR being intellectually dishonest (seriously)? Several difficulty changes would follow those design changes.

ITT, developers enforcing the GEx basics** would remove all artificial difficulty aspects from their games. The only thing then needing change would be a gamer's choice of game.

Dark Souls is not a 'Care Bears' game...


** [ The actual ease or difficulty of each game would emerge, allowing gamers to choose to play games designed for the gameplay level at which they are willing and able to invest. ]

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God forbid!

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Rikiaz posted...

Not sure where people get this from, its really not. Well maybe the hardcore PvP players can be really toxic but thats a very small subset of the community.

You don't need to leave this topic to see it.

Dark Souls is the only mainstream franchise I know of that is hostile to people playing the game and hostile to the notion of optional player choice for increased gameplay conveience.

People in this topic cowardly dodged my question but the fact is From Software tomorrow patched in difficulty options for all their games, the fanbase would be furious. The "It's what the developers wanted" excuse is just that, an excuse.

Not all obviously, but a plurality of the Dark Souls fanbase is hostile, they judge themselves as superior people for being fans and aggressive to all criticism or differing views.

Sonic fans may be weirder but they are not angry at non-sonic fans or attempt to gatekeep their franchise.
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UnfairRepresent posted...

Sonic fans may be weirder but they are not angry at non-sonic fans or attempt to gatekeep their franchise.

It's the weirdest dichotomy.

"Screw everyone who doesn't play DS! Also it needs to be as inaccessible as possible!"

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UnfairRepresent posted...

Dark Souls is the only mainstream franchise I know of that is hostile to people playing the game and hostile to the notion of optional player choice for increased gameplay conveience.

People in this topic cowardly dodged my question but the fact is From Software tomorrow patched in difficulty options for all their games, the fanbase would be furious. The "It's what the developers wanted" excuse is just that, an excuse.

Not all obviously, but a plurality of the Dark Souls fanbase is hostile, they judge themselves as superior people for being fans and aggressive to all criticism or differing views.

Speaking of dodging questions, what would an easy mode for this game entail for you? Specifics. Again, Im not asking whether or not it affects my personal experience. Im asking how you would create an easy mode for this game.


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DevsBro posted...

It's the weirdest dichotomy.

"Screw everyone who doesn't play DS! Also it needs to be as inaccessible as possible!"

but the game is accessible. Cant beat a boss alone? Summon some phantoms. Keep getting invaded? The game has auto summon invasion police.

the game is only as hard as you make it

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so as what you might call a hardcore dark souls fan: there's honestly only one fight i'm really concerned about in the first game in response to an easy mode. everything else -- whatever. tone it down so more people can enjoy it. i'm fine with that. we'll worry about the online and invasions later.

the fight i'm concerned about holds a game-changing reward. go watch a new streamer pass the halfway point in the game after trying a lot and see how they respond to what they get. this moment is literally the only thing i care about preserving.

The game has auto summon invasion police.

just 2 and 3.

i wish i could jump helper blues in 1.
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Pancake posted...

just 2 and 3.

i wish i could jump helper blues in 1.

i thought they fixed it in remastered. I wasnt invaded much and when I was I just 1v1 them


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i thought they fixed it in remastered. I wasnt invaded much and when I was I just 1v1 them

sadly nah. blues can only invade gravelords and sinners.

i think they made some changes to invasions in general in the remaster, though. i'm pretty sure the ds3 rule of 'prioritize hosts with phantoms' is in place, because it seems like most of the time when i invade someone i'm coming in right as they summon.
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Pancake posted...

i thought they fixed it in remastered. I wasnt invaded much and when I was I just 1v1 them

sadly nah. blues can only invade gravelords and sinners.

i think they made some changes to invasions in general in the remaster, though. i'm pretty sure the ds3 rule of 'prioritize hosts with phantoms' is in place, because it seems like most of the time when i invade someone i'm coming in right as they summon.

i mean DS1 has the best npc summons in my opinion. Solaire and Tarkus carried me


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I4NRulez posted...

but the game is accessible. Cant beat a boss alone? Summon some phantoms. Keep getting invaded? The game has auto summon invasion police.

the game is only as hard as you make it

If you say so

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https://youtu.be/nIWivb-8C1w

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DevsBro posted...

If you say so

I am saying so. Quit whining and either play or dont. I couldnt care less lol.

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DevsBro posted...

If you say so

Real mature buddy

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I'd be all for an easy mode if it meant normal mode players could still invade the easy mode players. As long as that core concept of the Souls games remains I don't really give a shit what they do

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I4NRulez posted...

I am saying so. Quit whining and either play or dont. I couldnt care less lol.

you very clearly do care a lot
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Unfair isnt really wrong. Adding an easy mode option in these types of games doesnt take away from your own personal experience so its perfectly reasonable for players to ask for the option. Yeah, the experience would probably be better if the player played through the game the way the devs intended but you have to understand its their choice to put the game on easy. Let people play the game how they want and you can play the game how you want.

Asking Unfair how he would design an easy mode isnt relevant like he pointed out. Youre leading the argument in a direction that would make it easier for you to refute. Dont do that.

Most people dont even finish these games and many that do cheese it in some way. Dont even kid yourselves. Plenty of people look up video guides on bosses or use cheese tactics to get an easy win. Easy mode being an option isnt too big of a deal. As long as people are enjoying themselves with the game, thats all that matters. Dont forget why we play video games in the first place.

For as many people who buy and enjoy these games, there are even more who refuse to try it due to the lack of difficulty options. Ive met a lot of people who know of Souls but wont even try it because they heard its too hard and thats a shame. I think everyone with a PS4 should try Bloodborne but most of them wont make it beyond Father Gascoigne.

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