Current Events > "Dark Souls needs an easy mode!!!"

(+) Yeah! (+)

Cheese_Crackers posted...

I added more detail before you replied. Bottom line is that a difficult game provides a meaningful goal for players to reach.

Why?

That's still there even if there's an optional easy mode.

Nothing has changed except more people have fun.
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UnfairRepresent posted...

Why?

That's still there even if there's an optional easy mode.

Nothing has changed except more people have fun.

I explained my understanding already. The existence of an easy mode means that it doesnt matter if you beat Dark Souls. Killing Ornstein and Smough isnt an accomplishment anymore when someone can do it with half the effort.

There are a subset of gamers that want that sense of achievement when overcoming a difficult challenge. Thats who Dark Souls is made for.

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UnfairRepresent posted...

Why?

That's still there even if there's an optional easy mode.

Nothing has changed except more people have fun.

That's basically what I'm getting at, yeah. If the "normal" experience still exists, why does the idea of an additional easy mode bother people? I could see if it altered the game entirely to the point that it breaks the spirit of the standard experience, but that wouldn't necessarily be there case.

Whats even the point of easy modes in games

it should jsut be normal/default (tor however the makers intended the game to be played) and then the harder modes.

Git gud

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MRW1215 posted...

That's basically what I'm getting at, yeah. If the "normal" experience still exists, why does the idea of an additional easy mode bother people? I could see if it altered the game entirely to the point that it breaks the spirit of the standard experience, but that wouldn't necessarily be there case.

I would turn it around and ask why an easy mode should be added. If you want to beat the game, then practice and learn. If you dont want to do that, there are easier games. Not every game is targeted at every gamer.

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Cheese_Crackers posted...

I explained my understanding already. The existence of an easy mode means that it doesnt matter if you beat Dark Souls. Killing Ornstein and Smough isnt an accomplishment anymore when someone can do it with half the effort.

But they can't.

They can beat easy mode O&S

That doesn't effect you at all. People have beaten O&S with mods and trainers that broke the game. Does that mean you can't enjoy it anymore?

That makes no fucking sense. toyota posted...

Whats even the point of easy modes in games

Because people find it fun

Cheese_Crackers posted...

I would turn it around and ask why an easy mode should be added. If you want to beat the game, then practice and learn. If you dont want to do that, there are easier games.

Or they can play this game that they like and enjoy it

Not every game is targeted at every gamer.

Sure but something that will not hurt you at all and will bring joy to thousands doesn't change the target. It just makes more people happy

These are (very weak) excuses rather than explanations.
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The biggest thing ds does is it punishes greedy players. Mostly people who are new will spam r1 and get upset it didn't take them far and call the game very hard.

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Cheese_Crackers posted...

I would turn it around and ask why an easy mode should be added. If you want to beat the game, then practice and learn. If you dont want to do that, there are easier games. Not every game is targeted at every gamer.

Thank you! People can just... play another game. You dont NEED to play this one. There are others, too.

The difficulty is universal because it's got a big online focus. You get messages from other players. Other players are in that same world with you dealing with the same things. You see where they die. They can invade your game. You can summon them for help.

The experience is similar to climbing a mountain and finding things left behind from explorers who are making the same treck you are. That's the game.

Plenty of games don't have difficulty modes.

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Stalolin posted...

Thank you! People can just... play another game. You dont NEED to play this one. There are others, too.

This is such a bad take though.

If they want to play the game and would enjoy it if it had an easy mode. Why does that affect you?

You could remove the subtitle options and tell the people with bad hearing to fuck off to another game too.

But why? Why would you do that? It's pointless gatekeep egotism.
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UnfairRepresent posted...

But they can't.

They can beat easy mode O&S

That doesn't effect you at all. People have beaten O&S with mods and trainers that broke the game. Does that mean you can't enjoy it anymore?

That makes no fucking sense.

Because people find it fun

Or they can play this game that they like and enjoy it

Sure but something that will not hurt you at all and will bring joy to thousands doesn't change the target. It just makes more people happy

These are (very weak) excuses rather than explanations.

You are notoriously contrarian, but even so: if this is how you feel - great. A lot of people wont agree, and thats fine. But the game is what it is - and no amount of arguing is gonna change it. We like it this way, youd prefer it another way. I think thats really about the long and short of it, theres not much more meaningful discussion to be had on this topic.

Darmik posted...

The difficulty is universal because it's got a big online focus. You get messages from other players. Other players are in that same world with you dealing with the same things. You see where they die. They can invade your game. You can summon them for help.

The experience is similar to climbing a mountain and finding things left behind from explorers who are making the same treck you are. That's the game.

Plenty of games don't have difficulty modes.

None of this is changed or effected by an optional easy mode.
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Stalolin posted...

, but even so: if this is how you feel - great.

I didn't say how I feel. I asked for an explanation and all I got was excuses

A lot of people wont agree, and thats fine. But the game is what it is - and no amount of arguing is gonna change it.

That's not true at all. things get patched and updated all the time and new games go from feedback of old games.

We like it this way, youd prefer it another way. I think thats really about the long and short of it

Nah that doesn't work in this context.

That works if someone said "The game should be easier."

But when it's "The game should have another option" that doesn't effect you whatsoever. So the "Well I like it my way, you do you, you do me" bullshit falls down.

They could have made it without a volume control as well. And you may enjoy it if they didn't, but it would suck and be dumb and they shoudn't do it. You can personally set the volume to whatever you want. So everyone is happy.

That's all this is. You going "Those tens of thousands of people don't deserve to have fun because fuck them." with no actual reasoning behind it. Which is a bad practice and one you should introspect on.

, theres not much more meaningful discussion to be had on this topic.

That's just a cowards way of saying "I have no actual reason for this and just want to feel superior to people but I'm too cowardly to admit that."
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UnfairRepresent posted...

None of this is changed or effected by an optional easy mode.

What does an optional easy mode for Dark Souls look like?

Areas are gated by difficult enemies that teach the player to come back later. How would players handle that expecting no challenge? The game doesn't just have challenging combat. The entire game is based around exploring and learning. It's not an experience that be turned into a casual one with a toggle.

If it's a simple case of 'increase player health and attack damage' you can do that within the game already. There are plenty of tools within the game to make it easier for less skilled players. If you don't want to bother finding out how to do this Dark Souls outright isn't your kind of game. You'll get lost and overwhelmed regardless of an easy mode.

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Just, deep breaths man. Its going to be all right.

I do think that even having the option will dilute the experience they were going for, so its not that simple. Lets call it their artistic vision and leave it at that. It is what it is. Its all good my man.

Darmik posted...

What does an optional easy mode for Dark Souls look like?

Areas are gated by difficult enemies that teach the player to come back later. How would players handle that expecting no challenge? The game doesn't just have challenging combat. The entire game is based around exploring and learning. It's not an experience that be turned into a casual one with a toggle.

If it's a simple case of 'increase player health and attack damage' you can do that within the game already. There are plenty of tools within the game to make it easier for less skilled players. If you don't want to bother finding out how to do this Dark Souls outright isn't your kind of game. You'll get lost and overwhelmed regardless of an easy mode.

Again this falls to excuses.

"If you don't want to find/download mods and awkward trainers to the game yourself then the game is not for you!"

Why not? Just sounds like normal/hard mode is not for them.

Just put an optional easy mode.

Why does their enjoyment effect yours whatsoever? You just admitted them using mods doesn't effect you at all. There is no logic behind it. Just arrogance.
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UnfairRepresent posted...

Again this falls to excuses.

"If you don't want to find/download mods and awkward trainers to the game yourself then the game is not for you!"

Why not? Just sounds like normal/hard mode is not for them.

Just put an optional easy mode.

Why does their enjoyment effect yours whatsoever? You just admitted them using mods doesn't effect you at all. There is no logic behind it. Just arrogance.

You completely ignored my question on what you expect an easy mode would be.

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UnfairRepresent posted...

I didn't say how I feel. I asked for an explanation and all I got was excuses

That's not true at all. things get patched and updated all the time and new games go from feedback of old games.

Nah that doesn't work in this context.

That works if someone said "The game should be easier."

But when it's "The game should have another option" that doesn't effect you whatsoever. So the "Well I like it my way, you do you, you do me" bullshit falls down.

They could have made it without a volume control as well. And you may enjoy it if they didn't, but it would suck and be dumb and they shoudn't do it. You can personally set the volume to whatever you want. So everyone is happy.

That's all this is. You going "Those tens of thousands of people don't deserve to have fun because fuck them." with no actual reasoning behind it. Which is a bad practice and one you should introspect on.

That's just a cowards way of saying "I have no actual reason for this and just want to feel superior to people but I'm too cowardly to admit that."

I mean there's an easy mode. Phantoms. Just because there's no outright "easy" mode option doesn't mean that it doesnt exist.

When i first played Dark Souls on release i sucked. My friend was good already for Demon Souls. He carried me through a lot of the game. After we beat it i went back and played the game myself. I got better and bam.

Its not like Dark Souls is narrative based. So its not like your missing out on progressing through the story. The challenge is the game.

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Stalolin posted...

I do think that even having the option will dilute the experience they were going for, so its not that simple. Lets call it their artistic vision and leave it at that. It is what it is. Its all good my man.

Again that's not an explanation for why.

Just an excuse. "Well thats how they made it!?" yes but why? What benefit is there to stopping thousands from having fun and not effecting you at all?
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Just buy Code Vein.

It's Dark Soul easy mode and also tailored for weebs who want anime waifus.

You all welcome.

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UnfairRepresent posted...

Again that's not an explanation for why.

Just an excuse. "Well thats how they made it!?" yes but why? What benefit is there to stopping thousands from having fun and not effecting you at all?

because then they have to play the game on the creators terms. If you dont like it thats Kool & The Gang baby.

I4NRulez posted...

Its not like Dark Souls is narrative based.

Now that's debatable

But we'll save that chestnut for another day.

What IMO is not debatable is someone else playing and having fun with the game does not effect you playing the game at all.

So opposing it is dumb. There's a reason not a one of you can explain any reason to be against it, just "Well it makes me mad! That's the way it is!" excuses.

Reminds me of Grandpa Simpson hating a kettle boiling water. No one is stopping you from drinking your tea cold. Just have an optional kettle for everyone who wants one
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Darmik posted...

You completely ignored my question on what you expect an easy mode would be.

Ive often wondered this myself when seeing people ask for an easy mode in Souls games. What, exactly, would an easy mode entail? Buffing player attacks? Reducing enemy defense and HP? Something else entirely?

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Well let's put it this way.

Until they have an easy mode, I'm going nowhere near them.

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I don't get the argument that an easy mode would be too easy and ruin new player experiences. To you yes, person who has already beaten the game, but to a person who needs/wants an easy mode it can still be hard. These people are not good at games, or at least this type of game, but they might want to still play it because of story, asthetics, cool designs, or even because they like the combat but are bad at it. A person playing easy mode souls still needs to learn the game mechanics and will still die a lot because their general skill is much lower than yours. Tough enemies will still exist and roadblocks will still exist since the players expected skill is much lower.

I know someone who can't play Bloodborne but loves the setting and creature designs, so they watched a whole playthrough. Some people don't care about the "git gud" combat of the series, they just want to play the game and see the cool stuff. And they can still like the combat while also being bad at it.

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DevsBro posted...

Well let's put it this way.

Until they have an easy mode, I'm going nowhere near them.

despite what this topic says every single game has a built in easy mode

markconigliaro posted...

I don't get the argument that an easy mode would be too easy and ruin new player experiences. To you yes, person who has already beaten the game, but to a person who needs/wants an easy mode it can still be hard. These people are not good at games, or at least this type of game, but they might want to still play it because of story, asthetics, cool designs, or even because they like the combat but are bad at it. A person playing easy mode souls still needs to learn the game mechanics and will still die a lot because their general skill is much lower than yours. Tough enemies will still exist and roadblocks will still exist since the players expected skill is much lower.

I know someone who can't play Bloodborne but loves the setting and creature designs, so they watched a whole playthrough. Some people don't care about the "git gud" combat of the series, they just want to play the game and see the cool stuff. And they can still like the combat while also being bad at it.

They're also lying.

If they released official patches that added an easy mode to the game or the upcoming soulesq game had an easy mode, they would flip their shit and hate/whine/rant about it for years.

The whole thing is just a way to feel superior to others.
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Fable should have had an Easy Mode.

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OudeGeuze posted...

despite what this topic says every single game has a built in easy mode

Don't care. I want one on the main menu.

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meralonne posted...

Ive often wondered this myself when seeing people ask for an easy mode in Souls games. What, exactly, would an easy mode entail? Buffing player attacks? Reducing enemy defense and HP? Something else entirely?

They don't know because they haven't tried playing the game.

And probably still wouldn't regardless.

Only thing I can think of is a Nintendo style auto play mode.

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Unfair, what would you add to an easy mode for souls game? Reduced damage? An assist style mode?

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LightningAce11 posted...

Unfair, what would you add to an easy mode for souls game? Reduced damage? An assist style mode?

I don't think that's relevant to the conversation.

And it would probably be different for different games.
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It is relevant, though. Youre making a significant change to the foundation of the game.

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meralonne posted...

It is relevant, though. Youre making a significant change to the foundation of the game.

How?

It's no different than subtitle, brightness or volume controls.

It literally has no effect on you at all.
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UnfairRepresent posted...

How?

It's no different than subtitle, brightness or volume controls.

It literally has no effect on you at all.

It is very different. Accessibility has reasonable limitations. Were talking about peoples ability to finish (not play but finish) the game. Were not talking about a disabled toilet or a parking spot dude.

Stalolin posted...

It is very different. Accessibility has reasonable limitations. Were talking about peoples ability to finish (not play but finish) the game. Were not talking about a disabled toilet or a parking spot dude.

This word salad did not explain how an optional easy mode effects you at all
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UnfairRepresent posted...

This word salad did not explain how an optional easy mode effects you at all

I feel like an easy mode for Dark Souls would only work in an offline mode.

Just take out PVP and reduce the damage that enemies do.

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UnfairRepresent posted...

This word salad did not explain how an optional easy mode effects you at all

why is that the test? The test is - this is what the developers wanted. Scream about it until youre blue in the face - doesnt matter.

Stalolin posted...

why is that the test? The test is - this is what the developers wanted. Scream about it until youre blue in the face - doesnt matter.

90 posts in the topic and not one person can explain a reason why it shouldn't have an easy mode.

Just that it doesn't.

It's just egotism, pure and simple
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UnfairRepresent posted...

90 posts in the topic and not one person can explain a reason why it shouldn't have an easy mode.

Just that it doesn't.

It's just egotism, pure and simple

I dont agree that it is egotism. And it has been explained multiple times, youre just being contrarian or refuse to accept that it can be a matter of opinion.

but you can think what you wanna think. Its really no biggie. Feel your feels, I always say.

Stalolin posted...

I dont agree that it is egotism. And it has been explained multiple times, youre just being contrarian or refuse to accept that it can be a matter of opinion.

We're not talking about opinion.

The question was "Why shouldn't it have an optional easy mode?"

"yeah well it DOESN'T"

"Okay but why? What's the reasoning? How does it effect you in any way?"

"THATS JUST THE WAY IT IS! I INSULT YOU!"

There is no actual reason beyond wanting to feel superior to other people. Not a single person including you can drudge up anything except excuses, evasions and insults.

It's no different to saying "People with bad hearing should go play another game. No subtitle options!"
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UnfairRepresent posted...

How?

It's no different than subtitle, brightness or volume controls.

It literally has no effect on you at all.

I didnt ask about whether or not it affected me. I asked how it would look.


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Not that you will accept any explanation whatsoever, but I will explain it.

Dark Souls does its best to have every part of it focused on its goals as a game and its themes. Its why theres an explanation for just about every game mechanic. You respawn at bonfires because youre undead. You see the phantoms of other players because of ripples in time. Items are placed carefully to reveal stories. Etc. etc. Similarly, when enemies kill you, they dont gloat over your corpse or laugh, they turn their asses around and walk back to where they were before. They do this because you are insignificant, they dont care about you, and this is used to show a cold, harsh, dreary world. As with all these other things, Dark Souls is difficult also to get across this point. This world is brutal. But through patience, perseverance, and sometimes a little help from the kindness of strangers, you can come out the other side. Therefore: it is hard in order to show this point, not just for the sake of it.

So: easy mode. Easy mode would dilute this theme, and therefore, it is not in the game. An easy mode would be too tempting for many people, especially as the struggle goes on, and they would rob themselves of the satisfaction of beating the challenge. The developers dont want this and so they exercise their creative freedom in order to not let you do that. If it was there, most people would not experience the game in the way it was intended and they would walk away lukewarm on the game. Instead, if you want to win you need to do it the hard way and then, when it happens, huge swathes of people walk away raving about the game. Just see its dedicated fan base.

Multiple times it has been explained to you but then you just ignore it or say something about subtitles and volume controls. As I said - accessibility relates to ones ability to play a game - the developer has no obligation to the consumer, within reason, that they will be able to complete it. Accessibility has reasonable limitations. Difficulty is about finishing the game. Audio and subtitles is about the ability to experience it at all.

So why no easy mode - because this way there is only one path to achieve the challenge. With one path, the challenge is more or less the same for everyone, all the little phantoms in the cold cold world, that you see as you play, you know theyre going through the same thing. Its the same for everyone. Its about overcoming that challenge. And thats all it is. A fun little challenge. Its just a game. Youre very fixated on this idea that everyone besides you is very elitist or arrogant but its just a game. Thats all it is - a fun little challenge. If its not for you, thats fine, there are other games and people are allowed to play them instead. No jury can convict you.

I feel like at this point youll still come back and say I havent answered the why. I never can fully satisfy that because when you drill down into the reasons it becomes a difference of opinion as to whether that stuff is important and to what degree different modes affect the core experience. At the end of the day, FromSoftware made a creative decision as to how they want people to experience their games in pursuit of their goals and themes, and thats how it be.

Easy mode and hard mode are bollocks, anyways. Make the game easier? Lower enemy health and up the damage on weapons. Make it harder? Take more damage, deal less damage, and throw more enemies at you. It's never an intuitive difficulty curve when developers add difficulty sliders. Change some numbers, and bam, it's easier/harder.

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Stalolin posted...

-snip-

You know hes just going to come back and say But these well explained and concise paragraphs dont explain WHY there isnt an easy mode and how it would affect your experience. Im fully convinced that he doesnt care or even want to understand. He has to be just trolling at this point, as its been explained again and again.

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UnfairRepresent posted...

90 posts in the topic and not one person can explain a reason why it shouldn't have an easy mode.

Just that it doesn't.

It's just egotism, pure and simple

Git gud

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Rikiaz posted...

You know hes just going to come back and say But these well explained and concise paragraphs dont explain WHY there isnt an easy mode and how it would affect your experience. Im fully convinced that he doesnt care or even want to understand. He has to be just trolling at this point, as its been explained again and again.

haha, deep down I know this is true, which is why Ive always tried to kind of wink at that in this topic a bit. In some ways I hope hes like... okay? Hes been doing this sort of jazz for a long time and to continue to just troll away for literal years... it almost boggles the mind.