Board 8 > Politics Containment Topic 287: Prince Charles Finally Gets the Crown

(+) Yeah! (+)

ChaosTonyV4 posted...

More stuff added to the ACA is literally unacceptable to Bernie, because it still relies on a profit motive in healthcare.

Really? Because he voted for the ACA in the first place. If it was unacceptable I'd think he'd have voted a different way.

Hes not going to turn down the best addition he can get to the health care system.

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Also public option is so bad Bernie would never suggest it would he?

https://www.cnn.com/2017/07/30/politics/bernie-sanders-health-care/index.html

Yeah, no public option ever is clearly Bernie's PoV.

You guys get so wrapped up in Bernie or bust sometimes you really lose sight of what your guy actually believes in. Bernie Sanders would never hold out and fuck the country for something he knows he cant achieve in the moment. Luckily he has better standards than you guys in this topic typically display.

Also seriously, it took me 10 seconds to google "Bernie Sanders public option" to find an article on this. I said it before but, I don't think you guys even truly understand what your guy stands for.

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Corrik7 posted...

People are garbage if they don't vote the way you want. News at 11.

People voting for Trump in a +1 or worse +2 swing, yeah, they are garbage. Our country is full of people that I absolutely would without hesitation call garbage in the moment.

If you vote for a racist, sexist, selfish to the point he cares nothing about his own numbers over the lives of American citizens president and dont think its in the best interest of millions up millions of people to vote him out of office, yes, I am going to think you are garbage.

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red13n posted...

No, you didn't say Medicare for All, and I specifically said actionable. Bernie will -never- get Medicare for all passed in his presidency. It is not a difference in the Presidency because Bernie cannot get it passed.

So your argument is Congress will pass the exact same shit no matter who is President, so theyre the same?

Setting aside that its ignoring that the President (is supposed to) set the agenda for the party, or that Bernie would establish a Progressive cabinet, you want people to go down a list of every position Bernie is 100% different than Biden (99% of them), and then weigh them against the possibility that a split congress will allow?

What a godawful argument. Just because the system is broken does not mean they are the same.

red13n posted...

Really? Because he voted for the ACA in the first place. If it was unacceptable I'd think he'd have voted a different way.

Hes not going to turn down the best addition he can get to the health care system.

Yes, and unless Im misremembering, at the time he personally put billions into it to fund free clinics, AND do Medicare expansion. Bernie has done what he can to accomplish things while working within the confines of the system, but his campaign has been about the entire system needing to be overhauled.

If hes the figurehead: That would be the Democratic partys goal, thats literally the point.

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red13n posted...

People voting for Trump in a +1 or worse +2 swing, yeah, they are garbage. Our country is full of people that I absolutely would without hesitation call garbage in the moment.

If you vote for a racist, sexist, selfish to the point he cares nothing about his own numbers over the lives of American citizens president and dont think its in the best interest of millions up millions of people to vote him out of office, yes, I am going to think you are garbage.

People who don't vote for who you want are garbage. News at 11. Tolerant Left in action.

Lmfao. You literally cannot make the way progressives act up.

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Also, I actually know a meaningful difference between the two off the top of my head, something that would be different immediately day 1. Its easy. But you guys follow the guy and not the real issues to the point you don't even know what you are actually fighting for beyond the name. M4A is not the answer, its not passable, everyone knows it. Even a public option is likely wishful thinking for at least 2 years of the presidency.

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Corrik7 posted...

People who don't vote for who you want are garbage. News at 11. Tolerant Left in action.

I never claimed to be tolerant. If you are something I find abhorrent why the hell would I show tolerance.

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ChaosTonyV4 posted...

Setting aside that its ignoring that the President (is supposed to) set the agenda for the party, or that Bernie would establish a Progressive cabinet, you want people to go down a list of every position Bernie is 100% different than Biden (99% of them), and then weigh them against the possibility that a split congress will allow?

What a godawful argument. Just because the system is broken does not mean they are the same.

No, the argument is, you are making votes without a stake in the game. This is peoples lives you are changing with your vote. We know the differences between a Biden/Trump presidency. So at the moment I asked, what real impactful actionable difference will a Bernie Sanders vs Joe Biden presidency have on peoples lives.

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red13n posted...

Also public option is so bad Bernie would never suggest it would he?

https://www.cnn.com/2017/07/30/politics/bernie-sanders-health-care/index.html

Yeah, no public option ever is clearly Bernie's PoV.

You guys get so wrapped up in Bernie or bust sometimes you really lose sight of what your guy actually believes in. Bernie Sanders would never hold out and fuck the country for something he knows he cant achieve in the moment. Luckily he has better standards than you guys in this topic typically display.

Also seriously, it took me 10 seconds to google "Bernie Sanders public option" to find an article on this. I said it before but, I don't think you guys even truly understand what your guy stands for.

Nah, you dont seem to understand that Bernie the Senator tries to get whatever he can done, done.

Bernie the Presidential candidate has explicitly said thats not enough.

Remember Hope and Change? The goal of a President, what Trump understood, what Obama understood, is to inspire people to want more than is possible, because that way when you move towards that you guarantee youre at least somewhere closer.

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Being figurehead is not legislative action. Tell me what you are fighting for not what your fantasyland version of reality is.

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You can have your cabinet and shit all you want, you get to the house and senate they tell you no.

So tell me what the difference between the two will be from a legislative point.

I already told you I -know- a few differences. Do you know them?

Because I've asked twice now and you throw me a bunch of nothing.

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You cant throw hope and change out there. Bernie Sanders gets in and you cant tell me what difference he will make in their lives other than inspiring hope and change?

That sounds like a whole lot of nothing if that is the case.

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And I'm going to reiterate Tony, I -know- the answer to this question. But you come in here claiming to be one of the staunchest of Bernie supporters and you cant even tell me one difference in action Bernie would take over Biden.

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red13n posted...

No, the argument is, you are making votes without a stake in the game. This is peoples lives you are changing with your vote. We know the differences between a Biden/Trump presidency. So at the moment I asked, what real impactful actionable difference will a Bernie Sanders vs Joe Biden presidency have on peoples lives.

Bernie wants to legalize Marijuana, Joe still thinks its a gateway drug.

Joe is definitely open to Social Security freezes/cuts, Bernie would literally never do that.

Bernie will forgive all student loan debt and implement a stock speculation tax, I dont know Bidens exact plan offhand, but I doubt its this.

Bernie has no interest in boots on the ground war, he has voted to approve airstrikes to save lives, but even his detractors know hes really a dove. Biden will authorize wars and then say he only started it because he actually knew the enemy wasnt real or some shit (look at his bold-faced lie about his Iraq vote if you dont understand).

I could go on, but its silly. Why are we seriously arguing Bernie and Bidens presidencies would be the same? Not even LotM believes that.


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red13n posted...

And I'm going to reiterate Tony, I -know- the answer to this question. But you come in here claiming to be one of the staunchest of Bernie supporters and you cant even tell me one difference in action Bernie would take over Biden.

Yes I know, you said almost this exact post before and never revealed whatever counterpunch youre hiding in your pocket.


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ChaosTonyV4 posted...

I could go on, but its silly. Why are we seriously arguing Bernie and Bidens presidencies would be the same? Not even LotM believes that.

you are wrong on the first two at this point. The third I think their limits are going to be about the same now.

The 4th is not actually legislation and is a fantasyland argument based on war hypotheticals.

Actually the first is an answer but not even close to the extremes you are going(Bernie has more of a plan for this one, Biden is more on the path to legalization at this point but it amounts to very similar policy I would guess).

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ChaosTonyV4 posted...

Yes I know, you said almost this exact post before and never revealed whatever counterpunch youre hiding in your pocket.

Counterpunch?

No, its literally just a more generalized look that Bernie would without a doubt take stronger executive action on climate change. It was entirely serious. This is the easy one.

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But again to that point, I would reiterate, on any of these issues. Trump is far right, both Biden and Bernie are way to the left. They are far closer to each other than Trump despite what people in this topic would make people try to believe.

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red13n posted...

Counterpunch?

No, its literally just a more generalized look that Bernie would without a doubt take stronger executive action on climate change. It was entirely serious. This is the easy one.

Thats true, Bidens ratings on climate change are pretty bad!

But on this Ill admit I have a very low attention span regarding climate policy, I think we should be moving towards green energy in everything but its not something that I spend a lot of time discussing tbh.


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Biden's climate change plan is good. It also doesn't have any of the stupid anti-nuclear crap that it's in several of the other candidates' (including Bernie's).

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LordoftheMorons posted...

Biden's climate change plan is good. It also doesn't have any of the stupid anti-nuclear crap that it's in several of the other candidates' (including Bernie's).

I want to say the anti-nuclear stuff is not executive actionable, but I could be wrong.

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Is there a single climate group that thinks Bidens plan is good? Im pretty sure I remember him getting like Fs and Ds.

I agree Bernie being anti-nuclear is disappointing, but while rare, perhaps he views Fukushima-type events as too risky. I actually dont know why hes against it, again like I said, climate policy is a big blind spot for me.

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red13n posted...

I never claimed to be tolerant. If you are something I find abhorrent why the hell would I show tolerance.

It's just the irony because you fit exactly into Ulti's characterization. Do what I want or you are etc.

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Greenpeace gave him a B+. Sunrise gave him an F-, but that was clearly not a rating based on any sort of objective analysis.

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Corrik7 posted...

It's just the irony because you fit exactly into Ulti's characterization. Do what I want or you are etc.

I'm a pretty unique personality, tbh. I will never claim to be anything but a realist and blunt honesty is a one of my traits I value highly because I feel like too much of the world is afraid to just up and tell people things as they are. This can be hard to swallow for people sometimes but at the end of the day it keeps me sane.

Also its not do what I want with the Bernie votes. What gets me with them is they claim to support Bernie, but Bernie Sanders literally tells everyone that if Biden is the nominee they should unquestionably vote for him to be president. It ticks me off because these people believe in Bernie Sanders up until it means they wont get exactly what they wanted.

When I say todays youths are a bunch of entitled shits, the younger group that turns from Bernie and votes Trump or doesn't vote at all just shows they are just a bunch of entitled brats.

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Greenpeace was an overall climate change scorecard. I believe Sunrise's was an extremely specific/strict scorecard based only on the Green New Deal. Sunrise's score was particularly odd considering they praised his plan a few months prior.

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red13n posted...

I'm a pretty unique personality, tbh. I will never claim to be anything but a realist and blunt honesty is a one of my traits I value highly because I feel like too much of the world is afraid to just up and tell people things as they are. This can be hard to swallow for people sometimes but at the end of the day it keeps me sane.

Also its not do what I want with the Bernie votes. What gets me with them is they claim to support Bernie, but Bernie Sanders literally tells everyone that if Biden is the nominee they should unquestionably vote for him to be president. It ticks me off because these people believe in Bernie Sanders up until it means they wont get exactly what they wanted.

When I say todays youths are a bunch of entitled shits, the younger group that turns from Bernie and votes Trump or doesn't vote at all just shows they are just a bunch of entitled brats.

Again. Just because you were going to vote for Bernie doesn't mean you are a Bernie supporter. Some are simply single issue voters. Like, my girl is a single issue voter on abortion.

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Corrik7 posted...

Again. Just because you were going to vote for Bernie doesn't mean you are a Bernie supporter. Some are simply single issue voters. Like, my girl is a single issue voter on abortion.

Do you even know what you are trying to say here?

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LordoftheMorons posted...

Greenpeace gave him a B+. Sunrise gave him an F-, but that was clearly not a rating based on any sort of objective analysis.

They actually rate him a regular B, but also 72/100, so their scoring system is uh, strange.

https://www.greenpeace.org/usa/climate2020/

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red13n posted...

Do you even know what you are trying to say here?

I am saying they were voting for a single issue possibly and when that issue was taken off the board, they went with their candidate they felt was best left. Yeah, I mean, it isn't a hard concept to grasp.

Some might just think Biden is suffering from dementia and view Trump as a plus over him.

Some might have felt Trump did okay and is better than Biden as a president if their dream candidate of Bernie isn't available.

I mean, you act like if someone doesn't vote a straight D ticket that they are a monster. Hell, some of those 20% if not a majority are probably even independents who aren't even Democrats themselves.

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If you click through to the document is says B+ on the last Biden update:
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1HIi4iCw2EuaO0B7X_J-e7cZlAuyzMba2vFUwA1GF6gQ/edit#

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LMFAO dude posted this on Facebook this morning.

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ChaosTonyV4 posted...

They actually rate him a regular B, but also 72/100, so their scoring system is uh, strange.

https://www.greenpeace.org/usa/climate2020/

They probably use a full scale, so A is 80-100, B is 60-80, and so on.

It's useful to make people aware of things like that even Tulsi, who got a 69, is not the same as Trump, who got a 0.

EDIT: It doesn't seem to be this exactly, but close.

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Tulsi 69 hmmmmm

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Being a single issue voter means that a politician can promise literally anything else on their platform and you're okay with it. You're basically saying a politician can say "I'm going to inject every citizen with HIV oh and I'll also ban abortion" and your fiance will be like "yup got my vote."

So yeah you would be a moron if you switched from Bernie to Trump because one or fewer issues.

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TheRock1525 posted...

Being a single issue voter means that a politician can promise literally anything else on their platform and you're okay with it. You're basically saying a politician can say "I'm going to inject every citizen with HIV oh and I'll also ban abortion" and your fiance will be like "yup got my vote."

So yeah you would be a moron if you switched from Bernie to Trump because one or fewer issues.

And some people that single issue is more important to them then the rest of their platform because of how strongly they feel about it. Yes.

Welcome to what a single issue voter means.

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Corrik7 posted...

And some people that single issue is more important to them then the rest of their platform because of how strongly they feel about it. Yes.

Welcome to what a single issue voter means.

Welcome to what being a moron means.

"We're gonna send leopards out to eat your face every day. But we'll ban abortions."

"Yaaaaaaaaay!"

This is literal moron logic. There is no "one issue" voter that is anything but a moron. Your literal fiance's behavior during the outbreak confirms it.

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Corrik7 posted...

am saying they were voting for a single issue possibly and when that issue was taken off the board, they went with their candidate they felt was best left. Yeah, I mean, it isn't a hard concept to grasp.

Some might just think Biden is suffering from dementia and view Trump as a plus over him.

Some might have felt Trump did okay and is better than Biden as a president if their dream candidate of Bernie isn't available.

I mean, you act like if someone doesn't vote a straight D ticket that they are a monster. Hell, some of those 20% if not a majority are probably even independents who aren't even Democrats themselves.

And I would just tell you any of these voters are hypocritical morons. Do you have a point?

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red13n posted...

And I would just tell you any of these voters are hypocritical morons. Do you have a point?

That you are a someone who if someone isn't voting your way instead of how they feel (which is the purpose of voting) that you lash out like a 2 year old acting like they are evil.

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TheRock1525 posted...

Welcome to what being a moron means.

"We're gonna send leopards out to eat your face every day. But we'll ban abortions."

"Yaaaaaaaaay!"

This is literal moron logic. There is no "one issue" voter that is anything but a moron. Your literal fiance's behavior during the outbreak confirms it.

Lol ok.

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Trump and Bernie share about 1% of the same policies.

Biden and Bernie share anywhere from 50%-90% of the same policies.

There's literally no justification from going "I support Bernie" to "I support Trump" and it would be just as moronic the other way.

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TheRock1525 posted...

Trump and Bernie share about 1% of the same policies.

Biden and Bernie share anywhere from 50%-90% of the same policies.

There's literally no justification from going "I support Bernie" to "I support Trump" and it would be just as moronic the other way.

Nobody cares what you think when they cast their vote, bud. There is a plethora of things that can go through a voters mind to make up their own decision. You are just being petty and childish to be upset with someone if they don't vote the way you personally want. The point of voting is for people to come to their own conclusion.

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Corrik7 posted...

Lol ok.

Glad you finally admit you have no counterpoint.

"So I know you wanted Moose Tracks but all we have is Neapolitan ice cream."

"Fuck you, if you don't have Moose Tracks then I'm drinking battery acid instead."

Corrik: this is an entirely reasonable position.

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Corrik7 posted...

That you are a someone who if someone isn't voting your way instead of how they feel (which is the purpose of voting) that you lash out like a 2 year old acting like they are evil.

red13n posted...

If you vote for a racist, sexist, selfish to the point he cares nothing but his own numbers over the lives of American citizens president and dont think its in the best interest of millions up millions of people to vote him out of office, yes, I am going to think you are garbage.

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TheRock1525 posted...

Glad you finally admit you have no counterpoint.

"So I know you wanted Moose Tracks but all we have is Neapolitan ice cream."

"Fuck you, if you don't have Moose Tracks then I'm drinking battery acid instead."

Corrik: this is an entirely reasonable position.

No. I just think you calling my fiancee a moron is a dumb ad hominem you went to because you have no real argument.

Someone struggling with social distancing doesn't make someone a moron.

I mean, some would say paying girls money over the internet to be your friend is moronic. But, hey, to each their own I guess.

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I know we are in agreement, red. You call it blunt truth. I call it childish.

*Shrug*

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Corrik7 posted...

Nobody cares what you think when they cast their vote, bud. There is a plethora of things that can go through a voters mind to make up their own decision. You are just being petty and childish to be upset with someone if they don't vote the way you personally want. The point of voting is for people to come to their own conclusion.

It would be equally stupid for a Trump supporter to go "I'll vote for Biden/Bernie if he's the nominee for the Dems" so no it's not about "voting the way I personally want." If you were a Ted Cruz voter that said "fuck it I'm voting for Hillary Clinton" you were a moron, too, because Trump shared way more policies with Cruz than Hillary.

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Corrik7 posted...

some would say paying girls money over the internet to be your friend is moronic.

Cool I'll let you know when I start doing that.

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TheRock1525 posted...

It would be equally stupid for a Trump supporter to go "I'll vote for Biden/Bernie if he's the nominee for the Dems" so no it's not about "voting the way I personally want." If you were a Ted Cruz voter that said "fuck it I'm voting for Hillary Clinton" you were a moron, too, because Trump shared way more policies with Cruz than Hillary.

I would have voted literally any candidate including Hillary over Cruz. This is how voting works. You vote for who you want to.

Not everyone has to go to the next closest person in their decision making. In fact, that is downright actually uncommon.


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TheRock1525 posted...

Cool I'll let you know when I start doing that.

Lmfao. Okay, bud.

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