Current Events > Girls sue to block participation of transgender athletes

(+) Yeah! (+)

Mr_Rian posted...

As long as the Testosterone levels are within the medically normal female range, it should be fair for all.

There's much more to the male vs female body than just testosterone, including more muscle, longer and larger bones, larger lungs, higher hemoglobin levels, and a whole lot more. These girls have a legit beef.

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Or to put it another way; no concession will ever be satisfactory enough to people who truly want transwomen out of sports.

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Or to be exact they just want the matches to be fair and for people who have a clear physical advantage to be grouped with others of the same advantage.


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CarrieChan posted...

Mods are highly inconsistent, especially when it comes to political correctness. One guy said he was the only one to get suspended for posting that South Park pic and the others are still up. He is also sad that no one made a " _____ is SUSPENDED!" topic for him.

At least CyricZ isn't one of them anymore... thank god.

MudKip_Master posted...

At least CyricZ isn't one of them anymore... thank god.

I'm sure if I were still modding I'd be blamed for just about everything 'round here. :)

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CyricZ posted...

I'm sure if I were still modding I'd be blamed for just about everything 'round here. :)

Pretty much. Same as the "fuck cops" crowd, mods and cops commonly get blamed for upholding rules that were set up out of necessity.

I mean, there are obviously corrupt cops and corrupt mods, but this is just silly.

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"Mods are inconsistent" happens when you have multiple mods who are humans and they make judgment calls differently.

On the other hand, nobody ever died as the result of a mod's bad judgment call.

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This topic should get closed tbh

Whatever reasonable debate could be had about how to define gender and sex in sport cannot be had here

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pinky0926 posted...

Whatever reasonable debate could be had about how to define gender and sex in sport cannot be had here

We can still try, I guess.
Just replace the hard men/women division with some sort of promotion and relegation system.

CyricZ posted...

"Mods are inconsistent" happens when you have multiple mods who are humans and they make judgment calls differently.

On the other hand, nobody ever died as the result of a mod's bad judgment call.

So mods are allowed to make as many mistakes as they want with no consequences but regular users just get fucked with no chance to defend themselves and no second chances

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Rika_Furude posted...

So mods are allowed to make as many mistakes as they want with no consequences but regular users just get fucked with no chance to defend themselves and no second chances

Yeah man. You sure you've been here six-plus years?

Seriously, though, you know how many "second chances" most of y'all get? Like waaaay past sell-by date?

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CyricZ posted...

Yeah man. You sure you've been here six-plus years?

Seriously, though, you know how many "second chances" most of y'all get? Like waaaay past sell-by date?

You know i mean on a per post basis. And theres no chance to defend yourself when they just warn you out of the blue and they never actually participate in the topics they are modding

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Rika_Furude posted...

they never actually participate in the topics they are modding

Since when was that required?

Now I haven't been on the squad for ten years, but I can't imagine it's changed all that much more than what it was when I was active: marked messages go to a queue on a separate page and mods click their way through it when they have time. They don't go trawling through topics looking for stuff to mod.

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CyricZ posted...

Since when was that required

Since they started abusing the moderation system in lieu of having a discussion which has been since forever

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My condolences, but last I saw there were too many marked messages at any given time to have a conversation with each person that was marked to get their opinion on whether they think they should be modded.

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CyricZ posted...

If you're taken aback by being called out on this, then just assume that the "you" is not referring to you specifically, just people who posted the picture, as anyone who can extrapolate context could figure out.

Then again, you're obviously someone's alt, so I don't have any reason to believe one of those people who posted the picture isn't you.

This statement right here. This is mean. This is ignorant. This is condescending.

No it is being factual. You're just being purposefully obtuse to troll a weak point.

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pinky0926 posted...

Honestly how could anyone say "this isn't complicated"

Sports scientists are calling this the most complex issue sport has ever had to face. Trans athletes, female athletes, sporting bodies, ethics bodies, scientists - no one is having a nice time with this topic right now.

Men have a pretty massive advantage over women in athletics. Hormones aren't as dramatic as the differences between men and women. The PC issue is what is preventing people from being real about this. This really isn't that complicated. It is just the politics around the issue that make it complex. People have issue with making women's sports exclusive, but they also don't want to ruin the competition.

Why don't we hear about FtMs dominating the competition or doing well at all? It is much more rare.

The only complication is that it is possible that if you give the proper hormones to a pre pubescent child they may develop more into their identified sex and/or gender than they would otherwise. That also raises concerns and various ethical questions in and of itself.

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Dorfl_2 posted...

There's much more to the male vs female body than just testosterone, including more muscle, longer and larger bones, larger lungs, higher hemoglobin levels, and a whole lot more. These girls have a legit beef.

Careful. People may label you transphobic and/or a bigot for pointing out obvious differences between men and women and the fact that sex change therapy can't account for every single biological difference between men and women to make a MtF or FtM the exact same as a biological cis female or male.

Perhaps one day medical advancements will allow that to happen and we will no longer be having this debate, but it is obvious that MtF have a clear advantage.

Notice that no one has really argued against FtMs? It is because they are at a clear disadvantage and it is much more rare that they are even competitive in the male athletic field.

I very seriously doubt anyone arguing that MtFs have no competitive advantage over cis females has any experience dealing in athletics.

The difference between men and women athletically is quite massive. Lisa Leslie even went on record to say she doesn't think she would last a single season in the NBA.

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TommyG663513 posted...

The PC issue is what is preventing people from being real about this.

Yep, fuck PC culture.

TommyG663513 posted...

Careful. People may label you transphobic and/or a bigot for pointing out obvious differences between men and women and the fact that sex change therapy can't account for every single biological difference between men and women to make a MtF or FtM the exact same as a biological cis female or male.

It would make me sad if they labelled me transphobic/a bigot over that, versus over my firmly-held Biblically-based belief that God created human beings male and female (Genesis 5:2, Matthew 19:4) and the current "trans" movement is a sinful mental delusion. They can hate me for telling the truth if they want.

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Wow Tommy. The company you keep.

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Damn more proof that mods dont give a fuck about transphobia

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CyricZ posted...

Wow Tommy. The company you keep.

Does he?

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FursonaNonGrata posted...

Damn more proof that mods dont give a fuck about transphobia

Either no one marked the message because they don't believe it's transphobia, or the mods believe it's not transphobia. It could be both, if the messages you're talking about aren't transphobia. Coz this topic sure as hell is not transphobic in any way if that's what you're complaining about.

I mean, I agree that transphobia is bad (no one should face discrimination just because they were born differently), but it's a big issue when people take complaints about it too far, are obnoxious about it and accuse people who aren't transphobic.

False accusations won't make people want to join your cause.

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CyricZ posted...

Wow Tommy. The company you keep.

Lol Dude. Good luck with your smear campaign. Feel free to debate the points I made without resorting to calling me some type of phobic or ism.

I mean, the only issue I have with trans individuals is when MtFs compete in athletics with cis women. I fully support them in absolutely everything else. I very strongly feel that trans individuals with military service should have basically all levels of possible therapy/surgery/hormone treatment covered by the military. Fully support them using whatever bathroom they choose. Don't want to see any negative or disparaging language used toward them. I feel they should be made to feel comfortable in society.

I honestly don't know what to do to solve the issue of MtFs co peting with cis females in athletics. I just recognize it as a problem. Seems clear that cis women function at a disadvantage there.

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Noraneko_Vel posted...

Either no one marked the message because they don't believe it's transphobia, or the mods believe it's not transphobia. It could be both, if the messages you're talking about aren't transphobia. Coz this topic sure as hell is not transphobic in any way if that's what you're complaining about.

I mean, I agree that transphobia is bad (no one should face discrimination just because they were born differently), but it's a big issue when people take complaints about it too far, are obnoxious about it and accuse people who aren't transphobic.

False accusations won't make people want to join your cause.

yeah post 221 definitely isnt transphobic at all huh

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TommyG663513 posted...

Lol Dude. Good luck with your smear campaign. Feel free to debate the points I made without resorting to calling me some type of phobic or ism.

lol I just thought it was funny you all but draped your arm around his shoulder for your little in-joke and then he goes in harder than fuck.


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Silver Bearings posted...

This is a confusing matter and it is hard to go one way or the other. I think real thought needs to go into these policies.

its not confusing at all, its exactly what we've been screaming for, for the past 15 years...trans rights...special dispensation status.....get with the program, subscribe to the times

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https://i.imgur.com/GDNyuPn.gif

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And thus the cycle continues.

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FursonaNonGrata posted...

yeah post 221 definitely isnt transphobic at all huh

You've been whining long before that and posts usually don't get modded within just 2 hours. It's hard to tell whom you're talking about when you don't specify.

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I love how people are suggesting trans athletes get their own leagues when women leagues are struggling to stay afloat as it is.

ThanksUglyGod posted...

I love how people are suggesting trans athletes get their own leagues when women leagues are struggling to stay afloat as it is.

Hell yeah, just sink both in one go

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ThanksUglyGod posted...

I love how people are suggesting trans athletes get their own leagues when women leagues are struggling to stay afloat as it is.

Exactly.
Trans league won't work, too few would want to watch them in most sports, because the league would be small and results probably predictable.

You'd need to separate them based on the athletes bodies to make sure no one has a physical advantage, if you want it to be fair. But I imagine then people would just focus on the heaviest tier?

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metallica846 posted...

nice

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This topic is a healthy reminder that no matter the subject, there are unpleasant people on both sides.

Noraneko_Vel posted...

You'd need to separate everyone based on the athletes bodies to make sure no one has a physical advantage, if you want it to be fair. But I imagine then people would just focus on the heaviest tier?

Theres no way to be sure, unless it happens. Boxing, for example, has had many decades where smaller weight classes such as middle weight and lightweight enjoyed a lot of popularity with fans, both hardcore and casual. My guess is that most people would gravitate to the divisions that feature the most powerful athletes, but they also appreciate ridiculous skill levels when they see it. Womens gymnastics, for instance, is pretty popular to watch, despite there also being a mens division.


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I guess it didn't ever occur to these petty little shits that they wouldn't be competing either if there had been no women pushing for the chance to be in sports, and no one to advocate for them.

Just divide people up BY whatever they're good in, swimming, track, soccer etc. and may the best athletes win. For fuck's sake, there are already mix gendered sports out there.

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CyricZ posted...

lol I just thought it was funny you all but draped your arm around his shoulder for your little in-joke and then he goes in harder than fuck.

That is not at all what happened, but good luck with that.

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FursonaNonGrata posted...

yeah post 221 definitely isnt transphobic at all huh

attacking post 221 is attacking his religion which is just as bad as attacking someone for being trans. You cannot change everyone beliefs based off of your own. That is unfair.

Good on the mods actually punishing people for sharing that transphobic South Park picture.

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gunplagirl posted...

Good on the mods actually punishing people for sharing that transphobic South Park picture.

sarcasm? its everywhere and really unrelated

@TommyG663513

TommyG663513 posted...

Men have a pretty massive advantage over women in athletics. Hormones aren't as dramatic as the differences between men and women. The PC issue is what is preventing people from being real about this. This really isn't that complicated. It is just the politics around the issue that make it complex. People have issue with making women's sports exclusive, but they also don't want to ruin the competition.

Why don't we hear about FtMs dominating the competition or doing well at all? It is much more rare.

The only complication is that it is possible that if you give the proper hormones to a pre pubescent child they may develop more into their identified sex and/or gender than they would otherwise. That also raises concerns and various ethical questions in and of itself.

The issue and complexity has never been whether men have an advantage over women. Everyone knows that. If you're attempting to summarise the debate on that basis you're clubbing an imaginary seal.

The issue is:

• How do we define sex in terms of athletics, and is doing so discriminatory
• If it is discriminatory, is it still necessary, and do we have enough evidence* to support making a discriminatory rule?
• Should women remain a protected class in sport? After all, we don't have a short person basketball league, and we don't consider the natural advantage of tall athletes to be discriminatory. So on what basis do we say being tall is fair, but having too much testosterone is unfair? Is it qualitative and/or quantitative
• If you use testosterone as a proxy for how "female" someone is, where do you drop the pin? How much testosterone should someone have and for how long? Is it a good enough proxy to justify this?
• Does someone who transition correct their advantages from androngenisation enough to merit fair competition?
• What is considered fair competition in sport? Where do you draw the line between advantages that are fair and advantages that are not?
• Is demanding otherwise healthy trans athletes to go on a hormone course in order to compete a medical ethics issue
• how do you define Intersex athletes, who are neither transgender nor fit into any neat category, and who are sometimes unable to process testosterone at all even if they have a lot of it? These are not people who transition, they are people born this way who fit into no neat male/female divide, and yet are overrepresented in sport

* As you pointed out, there are no FTms dominating sport. So how do you make a scientific consensus on an issue where there is virtually no evidence? The rational may be somewhat sound in principal, but if you're talking about "this is obvious, no one can even debate it", and you're making that argument on an ethics and legal level, you need to do better than "men are stronger than women because testosterone".

Ultimately if you want to commit to discriminating against trans athletes (because even by the IAAFs ruling, this is fundamentally discriminatory, of course it is), you need to have really, really good evidence. And we simply don't.

Hence, complex.

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@Dorfl_2 Was your post 201 modded or self deleted?

Fair, next

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pinky0926 posted...

@TommyG663513

The issue and complexity has never been whether men have an advantage over women. Everyone knows that. If you're attempting to summarise the debate on that basis you're clubbing an imaginary seal.

The issue is:
* How do we define sex in terms of athletics, and is doing so discriminatory
* If it is discriminatory, is it still necessary, and do we have enough evidence* to support making a discriminatory rule?
* Should women remain a protected class in sport? After all, we don't have a short person basketball league, and we don't consider the natural advantage of tall athletes to be discriminatory. So on what basis do we say being tall is fair, but having too much testosterone is unfair? Is it qualitative and/or quantitative
* If you use testosterone as a proxy for how "female" someone is in athletics, where do you drop the pin? How much testosterone should someone have and for how long? Is it a good enough proxy to justify this?
* Does someone who transition correct their advantages from androngenisation enough to merit fair competition?
* What is considered fair competition in sport? Where do you draw the line between advantages that are fair and advantages that are not?
* Is demanding otherwise healthy trans (and DSDs) athletes to go on a hormone course in order to compete a medical ethics issue
* how do you define Intersex (DSD) athletes, who are neither transgender nor fit into any neat category, and who are sometimes unable to process testosterone at all even if they have a lot of it? These are not people who transition, they are people born this way who fit into no neat male/female divide, and yet are overrepresented in sport
* Ultimately everyone wants to be inclusive in sport (it's just sport ffs), but where do you include people who don't fit into neat categories?
* Do sporting bodies have to be inclusive? As above, it's just sport. This may not be a human right's issue, even if it's an ethical one.
* As you pointed out, there are no FTms dominating sport. So how do you make a scientific consensus on an issue where there is virtually no evidence? The rational may be somewhat sound in principal, but if you're talking about "this is obvious, no one can even debate it", and you're making that argument on an ethics and legal level, you need to do better than "men are stronger than women because testosterone".

Ultimately if you want to commit to discriminating against trans athletes (because even by the IAAFs ruling, this is fundamentally discriminatory, of course it is), you need to have really, really good evidence. And we simply don't.

Hence, complex.

People aren't digging into it on that level, because what you're talking about is a deconstruction of everything a sport is.

We have one very major divider in sports which is biological sex and that is being challenged. The biggest reason for this is that very few women can compete with men on any meaningful level athletically. It just is that big of a gap. Women are way smaller than men on average. It takes a pretty large statistical anomaly of a woman's athletic prowess to even compete with men.

Reality is that treatment options available for transitional purposes can't completely change someone's physical characteristics 100% to match that of a cis individual. This difference is apparent in athletics where the advantages of being born biologically male are still partially retained after going through a transition.

I'm not saying I have a solution. I'm not sure what can be done to make everyone happy. It just seems really disingenuous to get overly philosophical to dodge the main point of this entire debate. It is fair to propose any number of solutions. You just need to take the fact into account that allowing MtFs in athletics with cis females will result in a disproportionate level of representation of MtFs in the very top ranks of the female gendered (seems more appropriate in this case to use gender instead of sex) divisions to the detriment of many cis females.

I think a lot of people are very severely misunderstanding how much of an advantage being born biologically male is over being born biologically female. I don't know how that can be made any more clear. It is difficult not to assume that people struggling to understand this are just very inexperienced in spending time around male and female athletics. The difference is pretty huge.

Can't really have this discussion when people are so unaware to this reality. Like I'm trying to point out the obvious that people who are bigger, stronger, and faster can do much better athletically than those who display less size, strength, and speed.

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gunplagirl posted...

Good on the mods actually punishing people for sharing that transphobic South Park picture.

Imagine being so bigoted and daft to think South Park was being transphobic in that episode.

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TommyG663513 posted...

People aren't digging into it on that level, because what you're talking about is a deconstruction of everything a sport is.

They literally are though. Did you read about the Caster Semenya IAAF CAS case? Sporting bodies are employing entire teams of scientists and ethics committees to dig into it at the absolute deepest level.

We have one very major divider in sports which is biological sex and that is being challenged. The biggest reason for this is that very few women can compete with men on any meaningful level athletically. It just is that big of a gap. Women are way smaller than men on average. It takes a pretty large statistical anomaly of a woman's athletic prowess to even compete with men.

Yes, no one should disagree with that, and neither was I.

Reality is that treatment options available for transitional purposes can't completely change someone's physical characteristics 100% to match that of a cis individual. This difference is apparent in athletics where the advantages of being born biologically male are still partially retained after going through a transition.

So where do you drop the pin? What do we do with intersex athletes that are neither transitioning nor cut and dry male/female? That's the problem at the moment. We don't have neat and proven lines for how much testosterone is too much/not enough.

Going back to Frolex's post, your point seems more true in some sports than others, and indicates a lack of sufficient evidence to back the point on a legal level.

I'm not saying I have a solution. I'm not sure what can be done to make everyone happy. It just seems really disingenuous to get overly philosophical to dodge the main point of this entire debate. It is fair to propose any number of solutions. You just need to take the fact into account that allowing MtFs in athletics with cis females will result in a disproportionate level of representation of MtFs in the very top ranks of the female gendered (seems more appropriate in this case to use gender instead of sex) divisions to the detriment of many cis females.

Yes, I wasn't debating that point. I'm debating the particulars. It's easy to say testosterone provides a physiological advantage in sport. Much harder to define exactly how much that advantage is, whether it can be corrected sufficiently or what to do about it in trans people.

What people are struggling with is where exactly to draw the line, and what to do in exceptional cases such as with DSD athletes.

Even sports scientists who agree in principle with "testosterone is too unfair of an advantage, that's why we separate men and women" are not entirely sure how to quantify this.

I think a lot of people are very severely misunderstanding how much of an advantage being born biologically male is over being born biologically female. I don't know how that can be made any more clear. It is difficult not to assume that people struggling to understand this are just very inexperienced in spending time around male and female athletics. The difference is pretty huge.

Literally never argued that point, not sure why you keep bringing it up.

Let me be clear. I understand exactly how much men outperform women. It's roughly 10% in nearly any sport. Or in numerical terms, the difference between rank 1 and rank 4000. Women cannot compete with men at the same level because of androgenisation, that much is very clearly.

So clearly that distinction needs to remain, but that still doesn't neatly resolve how to treat intersex and transitioning athletes.

Read this article on the caster semenya case, written by a sports scientist. It agrees with you in principle but also highlights why it was ever a debate in the first place.

https://sportsscientists.com/2019/05/on-dsds-the-theory-of-testosterone-performance-the-cas-ruling-on-caster-semenya/


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DarthWendy posted...

Imagine being so bigoted and daft to think South Park was being transphobic in that episode.

Well to be fair, there is nothing South Park loves doing more then pissing off everybody in the whole world.

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CarrieChan posted...

@Dorfl_2 Was your post 201 modded or self deleted?

Self deleted when I realized others had said the same thing already.

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