Current Events > Girls sue to block participation of transgender athletes

(+) Yeah! (+)

TommyG663513 posted...

Go watch the WNBA and then the NBA and then the WNBA again

Also, wrestling discriminates based on weight. The FtM was fighting similarly built males.

So you can't even Google the name I gave. And you can't even provide fucking names of athletes, you use such a stark contrast with professional (ie not high school) athletes. :l Says everything I need to know.

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gunplagirl posted...

you use such a stark contrast with professional (ie not high school) athletes.

Plenty of 19 year olds playing professionally. You gonna say theres that much of a difference between a year or 2. Hope not. Can even go back before the rule changes and look at how many 18 year olds played professionally.

You want a fight in this, and I respect that, but youve made it clear that youre not aware about sports so you should really calm down a bit.

A person thats never played sports shouldnt be trying to argue with people that have played sports their entire life.


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gatorsPENSbucs posted...

And I think the issue here is that people on this board have no idea what sports are. They type a couple things into google and think theyre experts.

Yeah, let these scientists and sports medicine specialists know that they know nothing about sports compared to armchair quarterbacks and internet trolls!

https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s40279-016-0621-y

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jumi posted...

Yeah, let these scientists and sports medicine specialists know that they know nothing about sports compared to armchair quarterbacks and internet trolls!

oh, are they posting on CE?

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Summer_Ashigara posted...

This post doesn't fit the broscience narrative itt, so I will disregard it. Unsubscribed.

Lol, I feel bad for making this post now, I was being ironic but it actually happened.

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viewmaster_pi posted...

oh, are they posting on CE?

No, they wrote that article. Which says:

"A meta-analyisis of research into transwomen's performance across a comprehensive range of sports found 'Currently, there is no direct or consistent research suggesting transgender female individuals (or male individuals) have an athletic advantage at any stage of their transition (e.g. cross-sex hormones, gender-confirming surgery) and, therefore, competitive sport policies that place restrictions on transgender people need to be considered and potentially revised.' "

But, hey, I'm sure all the transphobic "sports experts" on CE know what they're talking about, too.

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The core truth underlying this whole issue, is that women's sport was a safe space long before "safe space" itself was really a concept in the collective consciousness.

You know, I really love these topics. Between the idiots who cry bigot at everything and the social rejects who sat out during gym so people wouldn't laugh at them trying to talk about sports, it really does make for a hilarious read.

Half of the scumbags in here would want to close down a trans only league, and the other half are so stuck up their own asses and biased that they would support letting the trans person use a baseball bat to kneecap everyone else before the race.

Please, keep it up.

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omega cookie posted...

You know, I really love these topics. Between the idiots who cry bigot at everything and the social rejects who sat out during gym so people wouldn't laugh at them trying to talk about sports, it really does make for a hilarious read.

Half of the scumbags in here would want to close down a trans only league, and the other half are so stuck up their own asses and biased that they would support letting the trans person use a baseball bat to kneecap everyone else before the race.

Please, keep it up.

That was harsh and quite honestly not a positive response at all. You personally see two sides arguing and your instinct is to trash everyone else? That doesnt exactly make you a better person in anyones eyes other than your own.

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sylverlolol posted...

[LFAQs-redacted-quote]

lol

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My only issue is we have to take steroids and steroids are illegal in every sport.. like ever.

gunplagirl posted...

He was on testosterone as part of his transition

Are you being serious right now?

The main anabolic steroidhormone produced by your body is testosterone. Testosterone has two main effects on your body: Anabolic effects promote muscle building.

I was a mediocre D1 Mens tennis player. If I could have played on the Womens tour I would have gone pro. Drugging me to slow me down wouldnt have erased my muscle memory and experience.

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Imastrongwoman posted...

Are you being serious right now?

The main anabolic steroidhormone produced by your body is testosterone. Testosterone has two main effects on your body: Anabolic effects promote muscle building.

The same amount a biological male produces. Like the males he would've been wrestling if not for the stupid law.

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Good.

Although this seems to have been spurred on by a hate group and CE is very transphobic, this is inevitably such a complex and horrible situation and worth discussing. Trans athletes deserve to compete and should be included, but you really have to bang your head against a desk repeatedly to come to the conclusion that testosterone isn't an enormous performance advantage, and one that does not completely go away in some respects after lowering testosterone levels for a year. You can't undo the skeletal or mass advantages that have been piled on for 10 years of puberty.

Even more complex for intersex athletes. I didn't agree with the Caster Semenya ruling even though I think the rational was sound.

In summary, not enough evidence for any conclusions to be met, regardless of all the good arguments that could be made. More data is required to put this to bed.

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Why not just have their own organization ? Idk its tricky but a majority of this country agrees with the fact that its an unfair advantage.

Nothing complex about it. Let trans women have their own event.

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pinky0926 posted...

In summary, not enough evidence for any conclusions to be met, regardless of all the good arguments that could be made. More data is required to put this to bed.

what a lazy stance
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"Segregation: It's not just for race anymore!"

Anyway, I always take these on a case-by-case basis.

As I said in my first post, the reason the women in question filed their Title IX complaint and are now taking this to court is because they placed what I believe was under 5th in a qualifying heat.

Which means that they not only lost to these two transwomen, but also to at least three ciswomen. Also, while Miller is putting in a majority of wins, Yearwood is not, and is routinely beaten by other ciswomen.

I'm not saying the women filing the complaint are transphobic necessarily, but there's something about a person if they file these complaints under the auspice of "I would have won if the person who beat me didn't exist."

It's so much easier to go for the low hanging fruit of eliminating your competition rather than bettering yourself.

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Frolex posted...

Fat percentage, fat distribution, muscle density, muscle mass, bone density and hemoglobin content in transwomen after treatment with HRT are all in line with the typical levels for those seen in cisgender women

https://www.endocrine-abstracts.org/ea/0041/ea0041EP397
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/27572683
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/28945851
https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/abs/10.1111/cen.13607
https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/full/10.1177/0004563215587763
https://www.amjmed.com/article/S0002-9343(13)00896-6/abstract

Age graded race performance statistics among transwomen are equal to those of cis gender women
https://pdfs.semanticscholar.org/1e6a/bd2c1e03ba88e9ac8da94ea1d69ff3f4878a.pdf?_ga=2.254440527.659551599.1550520323-1192624875.1550520323

A meta-analyisis of research into transwomen's performance across a comprehensive range of sports found "Currently, there is no direct or consistent research suggesting transgender female individuals (or male individuals) have an athletic advantage at any stage of their transition (e.g. cross-sex hormones, gender-confirming surgery) and, therefore, competitive sport policies that place restrictions on transgender people need to be considered and potentially revised."
https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s40279-016-0621-y

This is interesting, I'll have a read

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CyricZ posted...

"Segregation: It's not just for race anymore!"

Lets say you have a daughter that wrestles. Then she has to go up against a MtF. Do you think thats fair? Your daughter would be destroyed. She wouldnt have a chance.

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CyricZ posted...

"Segregation: It's not just for race anymore!"

wnba
nba
wwe
boy scouts
girl scouts

If men and women are separated because of their physical advantages, then you separate them based based on who has those advantages.

Only the real gender matters, whatever fantasies they have in their heads have nothing to do with it. If hormones, weight or shape matter, separate them based on that. Male athletes should never be able to invade female-exclusive groups in sports.

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DoorbellLicker posted...

wnba
nba
wwe
boy scouts
girl scouts

TNBA
TWWE
Trans Scouts

That's what the "trans people get their own league" is suggesting.

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@Frolex

What are the sample sizes in these studies? My assumption is that there just are not an awful lot of elite trans athletes in order to make a meaningful comparison, but perhaps I'm wrong.

"Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence", and all that.

Edit: I wouldn't be surprised if they have more data for things like running than they would for weight lifting or rugby, for instance.

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As much as it sucks and they absolutely deserve to be able to compete, the reality of the fact is scientifically it's just not fair. There are just too many advantageous situations in their favor and sports as a whole is designed to be FAIR. Weight classes, gender classes, it's not segregation, it's simply checks and balances to ensure the non advantageous outcome.

For this I propose certain measurements like weight classes being more prominently shined in competition for highschool, though there could already be there. I am not the most educated on this subject and will not claim to be, but looking at this whole ordeal, I believe that if it continues towards this path without careful consideration then this could lead to some really bad body shaming bullying, even more so than today

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Yeah, I'm typically supportive of transsexuals, but the issue of athletics is one of those grey areas, since the biological male anatomy is still present and thus does give them a physical advantage over biological females.

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For people that want an interesting read on the subject (that I think is neither SJW ridden nor transphobic and merely attempts to highlight the different viewpoints and the intellectual arguments that can be made), Ross Tucker from the science of sport did a couple of editorials on this. One related to Caster Semenya, who had her medals stripped away for being intersex. A point that he disagreed with on the basis of not strong enough evidence, even though he thought there was a fair rationale to be made for why testosterone is an inherent (and probably unfair) advantage.

Caster Semenya:
https://sportsscientists.com/2019/05/on-dsds-the-theory-of-testosterone-performance-the-cas-ruling-on-caster-semenya/

MTF athletes and different points of view:
https://sportsscientists.com/2019/03/on-transgender-athletes-and-performance-advantages/

Him interviewing scientist and trans athlete Joanna Harper:
https://sportsscientists.com/2016/05/hyperandrogenism-women-vs-women-vs-men-sport-qa-joanna-harper/

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This was a great topic, and I one hundred percent agree with the lawsuit.

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Why does WWE need to ban transgenders?

it's fake
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I don't use the "b-word" on people who are conflicted on this. That's natural, and it's honest.

The people I take issue with are the known bad faith actors who claim to do this for the sanctity of women's sports (which is something we absolutely always talk about on CE in topics that aren't about transwomen, totally you guys). Most of them are known quantities.

Honestly, the happy ending for all of this is that we live in a future where being transgender is accepted wholesale and thus hormone blockers and therapy are available early, so the idea of a transwoman having "developed like a man" is considerably diminished.

Until then, "losing a sport" is unfortunately not something I can find as a major detriment on someone's life.

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CyricZ posted...

I don't use the "b-word" on people who are conflicted on this. That's natural, and it's honest.

The people I take issue with are the known bad faith actors who claim to do this for the sanctity of women's sports (which is something we absolutely always talk about on CE in topics that aren't about transwomen, totally you guys). Most of them are known quantities.

Honestly, the happy ending for all of this is that we live in a future where being transgender is accepted wholesale and thus hormone blockers and therapy are available early, so the idea of a transwoman having "developed like a man" is considerably diminished.

Until then, "losing a sport" is unfortunately not something I can find as a major detriment on someone's life.

Says someone whos never had kids in college on a scholarship or that it ruins your potential of making a professional or college team to further your career. But lets be fair here. Nobody on here even watches sports let alone really cares about them anyway.

CyricZ posted...

I don't use the "b-word" on people who are conflicted on this. That's natural, and it's honest.

The people I take issue with are the known bad faith actors who claim to do this for the sanctity of women's sports (which is something we absolutely always talk about on CE in topics that aren't about transwomen, totally you guys). Most of them are known quantities.

Honestly, the happy ending for all of this is that we live in a future where being transgender is accepted wholesale and thus hormone blockers and therapy are available early, so the idea of a transwoman having "developed like a man" is considerably diminished.

Until then, "losing a sport" is unfortunately not something I can find as a major detriment on someone's life.

I like this take.

I also think people are far too quick to shame the dignity of the athlete in question. Do they honestly think there's an epidemic of men pretending to be women to win medals? Or do they think that the primary goal of MTF people is to win medals in sports? It's dishonest at best, offensive and shameful at worst

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Imastrongwoman posted...

Says someone whos never had kids in college on a scholarship or that it ruins your potential of making a professional or college team to further your career.

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CyricZ posted...

"Segregation: It's not just for race anymore!"

if we didnt separate the genders for sports, there would be no famous female athletes. girls would be less likely to even try

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Imastrongwoman posted...

Says someone whos never had kids in college on a scholarship or that it ruins your potential of making a professional or college team to further your career. But lets be fair here. Nobody on here even watches sports let alone really cares about them anyway.

Would you extend that empathy for trans athletes who want to make a career in sport but are ousted on the worst kinds of justification?

Let's be honest here. Most of the rhetoric around this issue is pinned up as if there is strong scientific evidence to support it (there actually isn't a whole lot as its a fairly new issue, regardless of the reasonable rational for it), but once you delve into people's actual opinions their position is far simpler: that person has to be a guy, I mean just look at him.

Such as it was with Caster Semenya, who is someone with DSD and not a a MTF athlete at all. Didn't matter though. The prevailing opinion on social media and in the press could be summed up by saying "I mean, look at that jawline".

So we get back to the bad faith point Cyric brought up. Maybe there's something to be said for how emotional people are about this issue, and not just on the side of supposed sjws and trans people.

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Imastrongwoman posted...

Says someone whos never had kids in college on a scholarship or that it ruins your potential of making a professional or college team to further your career.

If the highly competitive nature of athletics based scholarships is so pivotal to someone's future, then maybe the problem isn't which people are meticulously selected as being "allowed to participate".

Maybe the problem is the system itself.

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Anyway, trans people shouldnt have their own league. Just have a league for cis females, and call the other one open. Trans girls arent cis so that shouldnt offend people while keeping things fair

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CyricZ posted...

If the highly competitive nature of athletics based scholarships is so pivotal to someone's future, then maybe the problem isn't which people are meticulously selected as being "allowed to participate".

Maybe the problem is the system itself.

No, just no.

pinky0926 posted...

I also think people are far too quick to shame the dignity of the athlete in question. Do they honestly think there's an epidemic of men pretending to be women to win medals? Or do they think that the primary goal of MTF people is to win medals in sports? It's dishonest at best, offensive and shameful at worst

Bingo.

We've been having discussion about transgender people on this board for nearly two decades. I'm not saying people can't change and come around on transgender people, but there are big warning signs of those who keep quiet because they know they don't have a leg to stand on on the subject of transgender people in general, yet converge like a plague on these topics in particular because they finally have a "virtuous" angle from which to fuel their dislike.

In short, those attempting to put one over on me on the subject will not find it easy.

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This was discussed locally on GMA awhile back.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?feature=youtu.be&v=I75kfAVF64

Interesting facts:

There are 2000 men in the world at the moment that could run 100 meters faster than the fastest woman on the planet.

1500 of the top male tennis players in the world could beat Serena Williams.

i, btw, call bullshit on that last one. Serena Williams would destroy a bunch of ranked mens players.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?feature=youtu.be&v=I75kfAVF64A

Also if you make it through puberty as a male, before you transition, even lowering your testosterone, gives you plenty of benefits over a biological female.

That South Park pic being used so frequently in this topic just goes to show I and everyone else who hated that episode was right.

DoorbellLicker posted...

This was discussed locally on GMA awhile back.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?feature=youtu.be&v=I75kfAVF64

Interesting facts:

There are 2000 men in the world at the moment that could run 100 meters faster than the fastest woman on the planet.

1500 of the top male tennis players in the world could beat Serena Williams.

i, btw, call bullshit on that last one. Serena Williams would destroy a bunch of ranked mens players.

I think the argument needs to be less about how men outperform women (everyone knows that) and more towards whether a hormone to lower testosterone course is 1) sufficient at leveling the playing field, and 2) whether it's even ethical, when it is made a requirement of the sporting body.

When you think about it, it's quite odd to demand an otherwise healthy athlete to meet a certain hormone criteria and go on a particular course in order to qualify. It means doctors have to treat athletes as patients, which many doctors may say is unethical.

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DoorbellLicker posted...

This was discussed locally on GMA awhile back.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?feature=youtu.be&v=I75kfAVF64

Interesting facts:

There are 2000 men in the world at the moment that could run 100 meters faster than the fastest woman on the planet.

1500 of the top male tennis players in the world could beat Serena Williams.

i, btw, call bullshit on that last one. Serena Williams would destroy a bunch of ranked mens players.

Remember when the young, in their prime Williams sisters got cocky and said they could beat any ranked 200 or above man? Remember what happened? A half retired smoking drunkard took the challenge and obliterated both of them. Literally right after he spent a day on the golf course drinking shandies.
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voldothegr8 posted...

Remember when the young, in their prime Williams sisters got cocky and said they could beat any ranked 200 or above man? Remember what happened? A half retired smoking drunkard took the challenge and obliterated both of them. Literally right after he spent a day on the golf course drinking shandies.

That'll teach 'em.

Wait what was the point of this topic again? Supporting womens' sports?

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Im a LiBeRaLcUCk who supports women and the LGBTQ community and I still think if you went through puberty as a male it is unfair to the women who went through puberty as a female.

CyricZ posted...

That'll teach 'em.

Wait what was the point of this topic again? Supporting womens' sports?

For a guy who seemingly tries to post like a normal person in other topics, you sure are on a shit posting spree in this one. The point of this topic is to show that naturally born men need to placed in their own sports divisions and naturally born women need to be placed in their own sports divisions.

As gatorsPENSbucs said, it's clear who are inexperienced with sports in this topic, and as nemu said, it's ridiculous how sports in general is the one subject that tends to be targeted with malice when there are many other places where naturally born men are separated from the naturally born women despite their preferred gender at the time yet no one bats an eye.

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