Current Events > Now that Rise of Skywalker is coming out, what did you think of TLJ?

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Tyranthraxus posted...

He was never close to executing his dad. He was close to executing the emperor but ironically Darth Vader stopped him.

Nope nowhere close



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ledbowman posted...

Nope nowhere close

What does a screenshot of him getting the shit kicked out of him on cloud City have anything to do with it?

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Tyranthraxus posted...

What does a screenshot of him getting the shit kicked out of him on cloud City have anything to do with it?

Lolwat

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Mostly good. The Kylo Ren stuff in particular I thought was excellent. The Luke stuff was fine. My main gripe was the Space Leia thing

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Big_Nabendu posted...

Big pile of bantha poodoo

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Sonic Cannon posted...

Mostly good. The Kylo Ren stuff in particular I thought was excellent. The Luke stuff was fine. My main gripe was the Space Leia thing

I love the concept of Space Leia but the execution just looked odd

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Something I do feel gets lost in the film that annoys me is that everyone is so caught up in oh my god they ruined Lukes character, I feel like we dont mention that Hamill was awesome in the movie. Whether you liked the character arc or not, he acted the hell out of it.

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mew4ever posted...

Something I do feel gets lost in the film that annoys me is that everyone is so caught up in oh my god they ruined Lukes character, I feel like we dont mention that Hamill was awesome in the movie. Whether you liked the character arc or not, he acted the hell out of it.

Uh, Luke was a pussy in the movie...

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Space Leia could have worked if they had toned it down a bit. Luke's first force feat was detecting an incoming attack. Rey's was the mind trick, IIRC.

Leia's was resurrecting herself from the dead, materializing air for herself to breathe I guess and then flying.

There's also the matter of her survival undercutting the scene just prior where Ben hesitates to fire, but then some mook killsteals, which was actually a pretty cool concept, and the fact that she has no purpose in the story after that scene.

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Who's to say that she hadn't been trained?

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ledbowman posted...

I got no problem with people not liking the movies. That's normal. But the stuff yall complain about is so stupid. Luke sucks because he was troubled and not a one dimensional sunny hero fulfillment. Light speed ram breaks the lore because every prior space battle didn't have one. Think whatever you want but yall sound ridiculous.

I don't come into these Star Wars topics to be adversarial. If i can snap even one person out of this perpetual unreasonable negativity that's been festering for 20 years i would be happy.

Dude, your arguments are terrible. Those are very much legitimate complaints to have with the film. You offer no real counter to those points.

The only real counter you could legitimately make is that you just don't care about lore and found it entertaining.

Seriously, stop devolving into insulting other people. That isn't an argumwnt

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Doom_Art posted...

Who's to say that she hadn't been trained?

Maybe she has, but it's six of one, half a dozen of another if they don't establish it before she does it. Episode 2, for example, had a brief scene where they established that Anakin was well into his training with Obi. Just having Leia up and do it is bad writing.

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absolute nonsense film
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TommyG663513 posted...

Dude, your arguments are terrible. Those are very much legitimate complaints to have with the film. You offer no real counter to those points.

The only real counter you could legitimately make is that you just don't care about lore and found it entertaining.

Seriously, stop devolving into insulting other people. That isn't an argumwnt

Do i really need to make the obvious argument that when we see something happen for the first time it's silly to say it breaks the lore of what we saw before, especially when that thing is kamikaze. Yall are saying that because the movie used that in a dramatic character moment, by Supreme Logic, ships should have been kamikazing all over the place at the battle of yavin

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ledbowman posted...

Do i really need to make the obvious argument that when we see something happen for the first time it's silly to say it breaks the lore of what we saw before

Sure, you could make that "obvious" argument if you didn't know shit about SW lore and how its hyperspace worked until TLJ.


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Ving_Rhames posted...

Sure, you could make that "obvious" argument if you didn't know shit about SW lore and how its hyperspace worked until TLJ.

So are you gonna tell me or

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Hyperspace has never had rules

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Ving_Rhames posted...

Sure, you could make that "obvious" argument if you didn't know shit about SW lore and how its hyperspace worked until TLJ.

Enlighten us.

ledbowman posted...

Do i really need to make the obvious argument that when we see something happen for the first time it's silly to say it breaks the lore of what we saw before

This isn't true though.

The presence of something that was implied to be absent by previous scenes can be lore-breaking. Like if in a hypothetical sequel to LotR, Gandalf lights his pipe with a little urn of Mount Doom fire that he casually mentions he's had the whole time.

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marthsheretoo posted...

This isn't true though.

The presence of something that was implied to be absent by previous scenes can be lore-breaking. Like if in a hypothetical sequel to LotR, Gandalf lights his pipe with a little urn of Mount Doom fire that he casually mentions he's had the whole time.

No shit but that's not what's happening here. This is a bunch of know it alls being insanely pedantic because they think movies are a math problem

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ledbowman posted...

No shit but that's not what's happening here. This is a bunch of know it alls being insanely pedantic because they think movies are a math problem

Well then just say that instead of things that are wrong.

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There's a place for implication in screenwriting

We don't really need a sequence for Leia to explain "Yes Luke trained me for a few years after the Battle of Endor, but then he fucked off to explore the galaxy for Jedi artifacts and I didn't go with him because I wanted to stay with Han and focus on my career in the New Republic."

We the audience when viewing the series can pretty easily draw the line of "Okay we find out she's force sensitive in ESB, we know her and Luke are close, Luke is a Jedi and wants to train other force sensitives, and between RotJ and TFA 30 years have passed"

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Doom_Art posted...

There's a place for implication in screenwriting

We don't really need a sequence for Leia to explain "Yes Luke trained me for a few years after the Battle of Endor, but then he fucked off to explore the galaxy for Jedi artifacts and I didn't go with him because I wanted to stay with Han and focus on my career in the New Republic."

We the audience when viewing the series can pretty easily draw the line of "Okay we find out she's force sensitive in ESB, we know her and Luke are close, Luke is a Jedi and wants to train other force sensitives, and between RotJ and TFA 30 years have passed"

Yeah and I actually break with the anti-TLJ squad somewhat because I thought Carrie Poppins was great.

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marthsheretoo posted...

Well then just say that instead of things that are wrong.

Well you took it out of the context of the point i was making about this specific issue so you could get an "actually" in

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ledbowman posted...

Well you took it out of the context of the point i was making about this specific issue so you could get an "actually" in

People say really dumb things about storycraft when Star Wars gets brought up. I've started trying to nip it in the bud whenever I see it because I'm convinced this shit spreads.

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marthsheretoo posted...

People say really dumb things about storycraft when Star Wars gets brought up. I've started trying to nip it in the bud whenever I see it because I'm convinced this shit spreads.

Agreed

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Doom_Art posted...

There's a place for implication in screenwriting

We don't really need a sequence for Leia to explain "Yes Luke trained me for a few years after the Battle of Endor, but then he fucked off to explore the galaxy for Jedi artifacts and I didn't go with him because I wanted to stay with Han and focus on my career in the New Republic."

We the audience when viewing the series can pretty easily draw the line of "Okay we find out she's force sensitive in ESB, we know her and Luke are close, Luke is a Jedi and wants to train other force sensitives, and between RotJ and TFA 30 years have passed"

Luke trained her , yet when Kylo comes out . She is like don't look at me.


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Luke probably did train her, but i always interpreted the leia in space scene as the force awakening in her as a reflexive survival thing

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Not to mention all she really did was a force pull in a frictionless vacuum, which is like Jedi Training 101.

ThanksUglyGod posted...

Not to mention all she really did was a force pull in a frictionless vacuum, which is like Jedi Training 101.

To be fair (and again I don't actually hate the scene) imagine how fast the ship must be going. Leia's pulling herself at ludicrous speed.

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ledbowman posted...

Do i really need to make the obvious argument that when we see something happen for the first time it's silly to say it breaks the lore of what we saw before, especially when that thing is kamikaze. Yall are saying that because the movie used that in a dramatic character moment, by Supreme Logic, ships should have been kamikazing all over the place at the battle of yavin

If lore breaking stuff doesn't bother you then fine. Won't tell you you're wrong for just enjoying a film.

I and many others didn't like it, because it makes you question why this hasn't been done before. It also felt like a cheap cop out for Holdo's character. Like as if we are suddenly supposed to start finding her likable or heroic.

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TommyG663513 posted...

If lore breaking stuff doesn't bother you then fine. Won't tell you you're wrong for just enjoying a film.

I and many others didn't like it, because it makes you question why this hasn't been done before. It also felt like a cheap cop out for Holdo's character. Like as if we are suddenly supposed to start finding her likable or heroic.

It didn't happen before because it wasn't appropriate to the stories being told. The larger point of Luke blowing up the Death Star is his progression as a character, not some video gamey concept of what's the most objectively effective attack

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Plus it's a basic understood part of film language that stuff exists off screen. Just because you don't fully understand why something in a space fantasy does or doesn't happen doesn't mean there isn't an explanation

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Would anybody even want to see a series of movies where every spaceship battle is "spam hyperdrive kamikaze." No. Having said that, Star Wars gets to show something new without being held to some ridiculously rigid retroactive standard

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ledbowman posted...

Plus it's a basic understood part of film language that stuff exists off screen. Just because you don't fully understand why something in a space fantasy does or doesn't happen doesn't mean there isn't an explanation

There we're plenty of times it could have been done in films prior. It could have even been done earlier within this film. Using blowing up the original death star as an example is pretty poor. Biggest ship ever versus tiny X wings. A decent sized commander type ship versus a star destroyer is more appropriate.

It clearly is one of those story tricks where it is like "try not to think too much about it and enjoy." Why do you seem so dead set on denying this? I get that some people are able to enjoy stuff like that (I can too in certain instances) but not everyone can. No one needs to necessarily be wrong in this.

Also, part of the issue is with Holdo herself. Just wasn't a great or even likable character. Her sacrifice carried no weight. She should've been replaced with Ackbar and then that whole subplot would have been much better received. It felt like I was being gaslit into believing Holdo was so great for her sacrifice or something.

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I dont care about hyperspace attacks to take out the Death Stars not being addressed. It wasnt important to the story back then.

If you have that mindset then youll also enjoy Game of Thrones season 8 and accept it as being great just the way it is. The way this thing was handled is illogical/doesnt make much sense/isnt the most effective!.

Who knows more about effective storytelling, character development, & conclusions to character arcs....some disgruntled viewers or the directors & producers who are the experts creating the stuff?

Time to stop the TLJ hate. Empire Strikes Back wasnt popular when it was first released, but now is universally loved. The haters are going to do complete 180s on The Last Jedi.

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While some people just go too far and whine too way too much, I don't see why everyone who didn't like TLJ is just some neckbearded, bigoted, hater who's just mad that "the story didn't fit their personal head canon" and etc. Why is it apparently so wild that people didn't like how the story went or how people like Luke were treated? It's ridiculous.

Rian Johnson himself says he likes audiences being divided over his movies.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XpqgYSUL38M

That idea is fine in and of itself, but for a SW movie though?

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marthsheretoo posted...

To be fair (and again I don't actually hate the scene) imagine how fast the ship must be going. Leia's pulling herself at ludicrous speed.

Motion is relative. She was blown from the ship herself, and they're in vacuum, so thanks to inertia she's already moving at a similar velocity. Her Force pull only has to account for the difference, which isn't ludicrous.

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On a more basic level, I can't stand the notion that "we don't like TLJ, therefore it is invalid, therefore it breaks the lore" as opposed to "ok we have some new material to work with that means we might have to somewhat reassess what we know about this relatively minor technical thing." It's so petty and backwards

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iPhone_7 posted...

I dont care about hyperspace attacks to take out the Death Stars not being addressed. It wasnt important to the story back then.

If you have that mindset then youll also enjoy Game of Thrones season 8 and accept it as being great just the way it is. The way this thing was handled is illogical/doesnt make much sense/isnt the most effective!.

Who knows more about effective storytelling, character development, & conclusions to character arcs....some disgruntled viewers or the directors & producers who are the experts creating the stuff?

Time to stop the TLJ hate. Empire Strikes Back wasnt popular when it was first released, but now is universally loved. The haters are going to do complete 180s on The Last Jedi.

Just like the prequel trilogy which is at best still divisive today........

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ledbowman posted...

On a more basic level, I can't stand the notion that "we don't like TLJ, therefore it is invalid, therefore it breaks the lore" as opposed to "ok we have some new material to work with that means we might have to somewhat reassess what we know about this relatively minor technical thing." It's so petty and backwards

So you're moving the goal posts?

I don't think you're wrong for still liking a film that I hate. At least, you defend some aspects of it which leads me to assume that you like it.

People can like or dislike a film for any number of reasons. It is when people boil their opinions down to personal attacks that I take issue such as "dumb star wars nerds, basement dwellers, neckbeards, who complain about a children's space fantasy film." As if we aren't all adults on a dying video game website arguing with each other over this. No one who engages in these discussions gets to play the superiority card over someone else who engages in these discussions.


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If The Last Jedi was the last film in the trilogy, I think a lot more people would be fine with it. As the middle film, it's left Rise of Skywalker with nowhere to go.

TommyG663513 posted...

So you're moving the goal posts?

Um no. If anybody's doing that it's you. "Lore breaking" has veered off into "it's more just that i just don't like Holdo" and "how dare you say we're being overly pedantic. We both post on gamefaqs"

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It won't be as bad, I expect.

Best I can do.

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EvenSpoonier posted...

Motion is relative. She was blown from the ship herself, and they're in vacuum, so thanks to inertia she's already moving at a similar velocity. Her Force pull only has to account for the difference, which isn't ludicrous.

But in space, there's nothing slowing you down. If the ships are burning fuel, they should be constantly accelerating. Once Leia is free of the ship, she shouldn't be.

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marthsheretoo posted...

But in space, there's nothing slowing you down. If the ships are burning fuel, they should be constantly accelerating. Once Leia is free of the ship, she shouldn't be.

They still need to burn fuel to jump, to change direction, and to power things other than the engines (life support, lights, computers, etc).

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ledbowman posted...

Um no. If anybody's doing that it's you. "Lore breaking" has veered off into "it's more just that i just don't like Holdo" and "how dare you say we're being overly pedantic. We both post on gamefaqs"

But it is Lore breaking. In his very movie, the ships that just let themselves just get blown up could have just HD to stop he FO.

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cjsdowg posted...

But it is Lore breaking. In his very movie, the ships that just let themselves just get blown up could have just HD to stop he FO.

Ok cinema sins

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Ehh, it was okay. My biggest issue with it was the sheer amount of filler (i.e. scenes that didn't amount to anything worthwhile). However I was totally on board during any scene that involved something flying around in space shooting at stuff (maybe I'm just easy to entertain). The effects were really good, but the new characters felt pretty flat. I don't mean to parrot Cosmonaut Marcus, but Poe and Finn felt un-developed. I'd give it a decent-to-strong 5/10. I don't think it's nearly as bad as most people say, but I found it disappointing compared to what we usually expect from the franchise.

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