Board 8 > Umineko playthrough topic 4

(+) Yeah! (+)

The dining hall seating plan came up again so it has to be important. But I have zero ideas on what this has to do with the whole mystery.

Will talked to Jessica about the witch Beatrice just a moment ago, and then Lion knows nothing about the witch... what?
It's episode 7, stop keeping so many things in the dark

Nevermind, it's getting explained now.
'Beatrice, the Golden Witch' is fact a concept.
That's exactly what I thought during episode 6, feels good to have this confirmed.

Interesting. You don't even have to put on a disguise to make Maria think you are Beatrice.
'Killing Beatrice' means that the person had stopped playing the part. But even if that person stops pretending, aren't there still stories and legends that the servants believe in? Can you really say Beatrice got killed?

If Lion exists, Beatrice cannot exist, and vice versa. Because she is 19 years old....?

Let me quickly form a theory before the games reveals it. In episode 5 there was a baby that Kinzo gave to Natsuhi to act as her child because Natsuhi couldn't give birth to one yet. This is the world where that baby didn't fall and die, and that baby would grow up to be Lion.

I don't know how this would kill the witch Beatrice.

Kinzo had a strong desire for Lion to be the next Head.
Lion must be very important to Kinzo.
Where did that baby who is Lion even come from?
Is it because that baby is actually another illegitimate child of Kinzo?
Who was that baby's mother?
Lion is 19 years old.
1986 - 19 = 1967
The younger Beatrice - Kinzo's daughter - died at or close to 1967.
...
...
...
Shit. I don't think I want to continue this line of reasoning. I'll let the game tell me.

Oh my god you can't be serious

Lion is
-Kinzo's daughter
-Kinzo's granddaughter
-Beatrice (younger)'s daughter
-Beatrice (elder)'s granddaughter
At the same time.

What the fuck even is this family tree.

Confession here: I have seen a fair share of incest-related anime and manga, so I'm much more... immune to this kind of stuff than most other people. But the incest here is on a whole another level.

Lion's gender is unknown. I had always assumed her to be a female, for some reason.

Fuck it, Im still going to call Lion a she
Lion should also be glad she didnt grow up to look exactly like Beatrice. It isnt difficult to imagine what Kinzo might do to her.
...wait, does it mean Lion is a guy because she doesnt look like Beatrice?

lion is my waifu so she's a girl

Well I hope she's really a girl
It's funnier if a girl has a habit of pinching butts to make others behave

Next up is the Beatrice that caused the crimes. Or the person that created the concept of 'witch Beatrice' and killed it.
Man I don't have a clue on this. I am not going to do anymore thinking here, give me the answer now.

That person is kept hidden for now.
'Clair vauzof Bernard' it doesn't seem she is particularly important.
Orphanage... Gospel... is this one of those kids who went to work as servants in Kinzo's mansion?
It's 1976, ten years before the murders.
I have a pretty good idea who this person is now. At least, the suspects are narrowed down greatly.

Tag!

---

When did those 7 sisters of purgatory become servants
Shannon is there too. What? I thought this was 10 years ago. Surely she can't look the same as now. Just how old is she?
Well, the only person left who fits the bill here is Kanon. I don't think a new character is going to pop up now.

I can see where this is going.
This is a world where Natsuhi rejected the baby, where Lion does not exist.
Since the baby can't enter the family as Natsuhi's child, Kinzo arranged for him to enter the orphanage and become a servant instead, and he was given preferential treatment.
So Lion = Kanon.
Few doubts after this however. I thought that baby died from a fall because of Natsuhi's rejection. Also, Lion and Kanon have different eye and hair colour... though it can be easily explained by hair dyes and contact lenses. Their attire is similar as well.

Oh Kinzo never knew the baby survived, only Genji. Makes sense because Kinzo won't give a fuck about being discreet and would immediately tell the whole family about it. Guess the different hair and eye colour are to avoid Kinzo finding out the child's identity then.

Lion = Kanon would also mean Lion is a male after all. This sucks.
I'm still called Lion a 'she' until it gets all confirmed.

Genji bringing Kinzo's bastard onto Rokkenjima as a servant was a mistake IMO.
He is made to work when he isn't old enough to do it properly.
His education is going to be negatively affected.
Some of the servants aren't going to treat him very well for being different.
It's going to cause an uproar if the family finds out who he is.
And let's say Genji tells Kinzo and Kinzo makes him the Successor. Everyone in the family will hate him and he would never do well as family head.

If Kanon is Kinzo's son, it would make make him Jessica's... uh... half-uncle. And half-cousin at the same time.
It would be incest on top of incest if they hook up.
This is no longer a family tree, more like a family stump

Genji didn't tell Kinzo about the baby surviving because he didn't want Kinzo to fuck his own grandchild who is also his child. That makes sense.
Wouldn't that imply Kanon is actually a female? If Kanon was a male, there is less need to hide it, surely even Kinzo isn't depraved enough to fuck his grandson. Then maybe Lion is a female after all?

That would also mean Jessica x Kanon is both incestuous and lesbian.

I really ought to stop. Yeah, it's just my imagination running wild, there's no way it can get this bad...

Kanon does look pretty feminine...

---

I'm used to seeing traps in Japanese media. So for me there really isn't anything too strange about Kanon looking feminine.

End of chapter 2.

The witch was Yasu's imagination. She looks like Gaap because that was Yasu's idea of what a witch looks like before he knew what Beatrice looks like. What really happened was that the others were bullying him by hiding things.

There are 9 chapters in total. That's going to take quite a while...

For now I'm going to call Kinzo's child 'Yasu' before it gets confirmed who this is
Don't want to look silly if it somehow turns out to not be Kanon

I thought this is going to be some sob story of Yasu's childhood. But he was learning and growing, making loads of money, and got to read mystery novels. This life isn't too bad at all.

There is also some interesting parallels on 'And Then There Were None' and this whole Umineko murder mystery. I haven't read it but I imagine anyone who did will notice it straight away.

One of the servants was talking about a key disappearing from the ring.
Don't all the keys look the same? You don't have to actually remove the key from the ring. The culprit can simply swap a ring with 3 keys with another ring with 2 keys. The missing key was already placed in the locker some time ago.

So, Yasu did it, and he was delusional enough to think that a witch possessed him and used magic. That's what it looks like to me anyway.

I hear Yasu's voice for the first time. Sounds a lot like a female voice, but Yasu is like 9-10 years old. Kanon's voice isn't very masculine either. Can't deduce much from this alone.

Yasu is making up a Beatrice persona and look and a whole backstory. Think she would create Ronove, Virgilia, and a bunch of other 'friends', and when the portrait gets hung, change her form to match that Beatrice. Also, the voice I just heard from Yasu is probably the same as Beatrice's..

There's something awfully off about this Shannon.
If she is 16-18 in 1976, that would make her 26-28 in 1986, hardly a young servant in that household, and it's unusual for something to stay that long.
Yasu thinks she is perfect and ideal and all but doesn't she mess up sometimes, even in 1986?

Alright, I get what is happening. I think.
Yasu is Shannon. (thank god it's not Kanon, that would make everything 10 times weirder)
The Shannon that was Yasu's friend is not a real person, but an ideal version of herself, a perfect servant that is loved by all, and what she wanted to become. Now, she no longer wants to become a perfect servant, but a witch instead, so that Shannon disappeared and Beatrice was born. The one that remained is the Shannon we are familiar with, once known as Yasu.

It's ironic that one with Beatrice's blood without knowing it would take up the identity of Beatrice. Shannon didn't seem to be doing this consciously though? Is this what you call multiple personalities or schizophrenia? Either way she has severe mental issues.

You can say that Shannon and Beatrice are two different personalities within the same physical body.

Now I'm at the part about the cousins playing years before 1986, and I can see where this is going. Shannon liked Battler - this was Battler's sin. Later, Shannon started to like George, and couldn't love Battler anymore, so she told Beatrice to take her place and become the person Battler would like - this was the hint I got from episode 6. Not sure what exactly is going on in Shannon's mind, but it's something like that

Oh and Shannon marrying George is still incest

When I think about it... it's true that not many mystery novels focus on the motive. Most of the time it's revealed after the case got solved. So of course Umineko is going against this and place the most importance on the human heart. aka 'Without love, it cannot be seen'

Love is harder to understand than locked room murders and tricks. In a sense, it's the greatest mystery ever.

The sin is that Battler made a promise like that and then never coming back for years + completely forgetting about it later. Not to mention, 12 year old kids shouldn't be making life decisions like that. Bad Battler.

The crimes would happen only if Battler came back in 1986. I don't have a clue why... maybe it's because George proposed to him that year? Or because of the timing of Kinzo's death? And the epitaph, did she find out about her parentage through it, realized she was blood related to the family, and drove her to commit murder?

Battler undoubtedly did a terrible thing by making the promise so casually.
But how naive is Shannon for taking it so seriously for so long. That part about her believing Battler to be making preparations, that they're fated to get together was hard to watch.

There's loads of exposition this episode, especially when Clair started telling the story. I wouldn't say I hated it, but I hope I get to 1986 soon.

Well she was just a lovestruck teen.

---

Doesn't help that she can't tell anyone about it and barely had friends, so her conception about love and promises are stuck as a 12-year old

This is pretty depressing. Not many girls would miss a boy for 3 years and go 'That's right, he's still thinking of me, this is all a test from God!'

So I was a bit off about how Shannon's love for Battler went over to Beatrice. Shannon went with George after the transfer, not before.
It's more like suppressing her emotions and giving it to the other personality of Beatrice, and changing the backstory just like how Yasu 'became Beatrice'. It's still deep inside Shannon's brain, so to speak. This is why Beatrice sometimes wears some sort of school uniform.

When Battler comes back in 1986, those suppressed feelings is going to resurface (Beatrice giving it back to Shannon). I still don't know why it has to be 1986, and how it leads to mass murder.

The epitaph should have some deep meaning to it. Kinzo's thinks that solving it will lead to Beatrice's resurrection. By resurrection, I think he means the child that supposedly died years ago, and that she would show herself to Kinzo thanks to the epitaph.
From here it can be reasoned that solving this epitaph would reveal the existence of the child and maybe Kinzo's entire past with Beatrice(s). Maybe only that child, or those who knew fully about Kinzo's past, would be able to solve it. I don't think it's intended to be an actual ceremony to kill a bunch of people.

Mariage Sorciere (god this name is stupid) is the imaginary world of Shannon and Maria. She truly believes (her Beatrice persona at least) what Maria says and that they are capable of magic.
Some other servants were around when they talked like this but... they probably thought Shannon was just playing around with Maria.

Did Shannon (Beatrice) see the epitaph, think it's an actual ceremony for her revival, and decided on the crimes so that she can gain magical power, after which Battler will come back to her? Even if it involves them probably dying?

...No, I don't think that's it, she said she already solved it earlier than 1986

Kinzo's hometown is freaking Taiwan. The only hint I got from the whole game was those nuts in a Krauss flashback, that's as obscure as you can get.
And Genji really wants Shannon to solve it. This is more like Kinzo telling Genji 'I think you saved that kid, so I'm displaying the epitaph and you are going to help him/her solve it'

(I've been to Taiwan before. Pretty nice place.)

Taiwan has loads of rivers, but all sweetfish are freshwater fish, so all rivers are possible. Beatrice then mentioned 6 major rivers...

With so many hints, I've finally got it. It's Danshui river, because Danshui literally means 'freshwater' in Chinese. Though, 'Tamsui' would be a more accurate translation. I went to a place called Tamsui district when in Taiwan, that's the village the epitaph was referring to right? It's more like a town than a village now.

handsomeboy2012 posted...

So I was a bit off about how Shannon's love for Battler went over to Beatrice. Shannon went with George after the transfer, not before.
It's more like suppressing her emotions and giving it to the other personality of Beatrice, and changing the backstory just like how Yasu 'became Beatrice'. It's still deep inside Shannon's brain, so to speak. This is why Beatrice sometimes wears some sort of school uniform.

When Battler comes back in 1986, those suppressed feelings is going to resurface (Beatrice giving it back to Shannon). I still don't know why it has to be 1986, and how it leads to mass murder.

I find it useful to think about it the other way around: what would Shannon do if Battler came back in 1985? And what would she do if he came back in 1987?

---

handsomeboy2012 posted...

Taiwan has loads of rivers, but all sweetfish are freshwater fish, so all rivers are possible. Beatrice then mentioned 6 major rivers...

With so many hints, I've finally got it. It's Danshui river, because Danshui literally means 'freshwater' in Chinese. Though, 'Tamsui' would be a more accurate translation. I went to a place called Tamsui district when in Taiwan, that's the village the epitaph was referring to right? It's more like a town than a village now.

Beatrice makes the connection right away. I assure you all that I definitely did NOT read ahead before posting the above.

Railroads are not something that I would describe as 'flow'.
The Danshui line. That's what I took to get from Taipei to Danshui during my trip. Though, it's not exactly the same, I read somewhere that it got demolished and rebuilt into a metro line sometime in the 90s.