Board 8 > Politics Containment Topic 236: The Obama's new house is half baked

(+) Yeah! (+)

DoomTheGyarados posted...

But what I am saying is, in a bit of a glib manner there, is it is ok to take the tactics of the other side if they clearly work. Not the stances or the villainy, but if Bernie reminds you of Trump in terms of style... Trump won, guys. And Bernie is a lot smarter and more informed. I'll take my chances.

I think works is part of it but the other part is that we shouldnt look as Trump as something to inspire to be. Also I think it misses that a lot of what allowed Trump to be President in the first place was a huge spread of misinformation and the rise of the internet.

I actually think, and people talking censorship is always a losing battle unfortunately. We actually seriously need to considering wrangling the internet a little bit. "Free speech" is always touchy but at this point I think its clear that sites like 8chan/4chan shouldn't be allowed to exist and that being able to anonymously spread messaging via twitter is -not- as good of a thing as it seems on the outside.

This also rolls back to the side effect of Trump, and that is extremism on the far right. If you make Trump style rhetoric the normalized standard you will see more of that extremism on both sides. Thats not the world view we should strive for.
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Pie > cake
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Espeon posted...

Given Californias gay marriage vote in 2008, Brexit, and Trump, Im really questioning why democracy is considered so damn wonderful.

To be fair, Trump wasnt democracy

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HashtagSEP posted...

I mean, ultimately when I see Bernie promising me cake when I know I'll probably only get pie, it's still better than Biden promising me the same old sauerkraut that he insists will be good once Trump's not the one making it.

i dont even know what Biden is promising at this point. His whole campaign has been a mess and the entire appeal of Biden was electability (He was a good speaker, quick thinker, and played a good political game. Hes basically none of these things now. Just old). "Not Trump" has a lot of appeal but when hes lost all of his attributes that made him a sure thing there really isn't a reason to vote for him.
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Also I want my candidate to show me their idea for cake(Chocolate chocolate chocolate please) but also to tell me about the pie they have cooking(Which, is hopefully also full of chocolate).
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DoomTheGyarados posted...

Because when it isn't Democracy you get Russia outlawing being gay, Europe besieged with endless war as royalty fight over land in a sense of mistaken pride, and far worse leaders than even Trump.

Democracy is the hope, not always the execution.

We still agree on something...!

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Nothing Bernie says is considered extreme anywhere but America. They don't equate that directly.
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Espeon posted...

Given Californias gay marriage vote in 2008, Brexit, and Trump, Im really questioning why democracy is considered so damn wonderful.

Democracy can't only be wonderful when you get your own way. Tiptoeing perilously along the fascism line!

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People keep telling me Joe Biden is the most electable.
Why? Because he's doing well in the polls.
Why is he doing well in the polls? Because he's the most electable.
Why is he the most electable? Becuase he's doing well in the polls!

I feel like way too many voters don't pay enough attention to the candidates. Apathy is killing democracy.
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Corrik7 posted...

Tiptoeing perilously along the fascism line!

The irony.
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Biden's strength is greatly boosted by the overwhelming fear of losing again

instead of the idea of accelerationism making leaders rethink what people to target, further degrading politics is making the people appreciate the garbage leaders they previously had

that Biden is something people dream of getting back to is fucked up
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TheRock1525 posted...

The irony.

I know. Defender of Antifa becoming what they supposedly are defending against!



Just kidding, Inviso.

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Go lock up some children for months Corrik. You literally cant talk a line when you are over the "Extreme disregard for basic human decency line".
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Who is hyped for the debate where Bernie, Warren, and Harris murder Biden live on stage several times in a row.

That's where this is heading btw. When we get down to 8 or so candidates Joe is fucked.
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Corrik7 posted...

Espeon posted...

Given Californias gay marriage vote in 2008, Brexit, and Trump, Im really questioning why democracy is considered so damn wonderful.

Democracy can't only be wonderful when you get your own way. Tiptoeing perilously along the fascism line!

Not gonna lie, if the options are fascism AGAINST me (the current President and Republican Party), or fascism in my favor (a theoretical construct since fascism is inherently a right-wing ideology), I would take fascism in my favor.
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DoomTheGyarados posted...

Who is hyped for the debate where Bernie, Warren, and Harris murder Biden live on stage several times in a row.

That's where this is heading btw. When we get down to 8 or so candidates Joe is fucked.

Harris did that by herself and it didnt matter

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Jakyl25 posted...

DoomTheGyarados posted...

Who is hyped for the debate where Bernie, Warren, and Harris murder Biden live on stage several times in a row.

That's where this is heading btw. When we get down to 8 or so candidates Joe is fucked.

Harris did that by herself and it didnt matter

She got one solid blow in, and it mattered a little bit. Keep in mind Joe's polls have went down quite a bit since he announced. He is a tired old man, tbh. They can't keep this fact hidden for eight months.
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There are a lot of people who actually think that Biden is the best candidate! He has a lot of strengths. For an example we haven't really discussed in this topic, he has a ton of foreign policy experience and would be one of the candidates best poised to rebuild our alliances post-Trump (though anyone would be an improvement, of course). He's also kind of the only game in town if you want somebody moderate; many people (especially among older voters) disagree with a lot of Sanders'/Warren's plans.

I'm not going to deny that some of his support is due to thinking he's the most electable, but a lot of the electability are also post-justified after deciding on a candidate for other reasons (just as many people here and elsewhere online argue that Bernie/Warren are actually the most electable because they'd be more inspiring).

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LordoftheMorons posted...

He's also kind of the only game in town if you want somebody moderate; many people (especially among older voters) disagree with a lot of Sanders'/Warren's plans.

Is Harris not considered a moderate to people?
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DoomTheGyarados posted...

Who is hyped for the debate where Bernie, Warren, and Harris murder Biden live on stage several times in a row.

That's where this is heading btw. When we get down to 8 or so candidates Joe is fucked.

Not sure that's good strategy for them tbqh
If you're one of those candidates, you want Biden to be attacked but you don't necessarily want to be the one doing the attacking because you risk any supporters he loses being turned off and going to one of your rivals instead.

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LordoftheMorons posted...

DoomTheGyarados posted...

Who is hyped for the debate where Bernie, Warren, and Harris murder Biden live on stage several times in a row.

That's where this is heading btw. When we get down to 8 or so candidates Joe is fucked.

Not sure that's good strategy for them tbqh
If you're one of those candidates, you want Biden to be attacked but you don't necessarily want to be the one doing the attacking because you risk any supporters he loses being turned off and going to one of your rivals instead.

I learned that even if you are very nice and campaign for a person after their supporters will still be vindictive, so fuck it burn the old man to the ground, Bernie.
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DoomTheGyarados posted...

Who is hyped for the debate where Bernie, Warren, and Harris murder Biden live on stage several times in a row.

That's where this is heading btw. When we get down to 8 or so candidates Joe is fucked.

Considering how badly Harris was bodied against Tulsi I don't trust her to help out much, and when she was on stage with Biden nothing she said made any sort of lasting impact. Bernie was also already on stage with Biden and didn't land any direct blows.

Warren vs Biden I anticipate being very tasty. I think she's the one that might be able to do some actual damage.
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Suprak the Stud posted...

DoomTheGyarados posted...

Who is hyped for the debate where Bernie, Warren, and Harris murder Biden live on stage several times in a row.

That's where this is heading btw. When we get down to 8 or so candidates Joe is fucked.

Considering how badly Harris was bodied against Tulsi I don't trust her to help out much, and when she was on stage with Biden nothing she said made any sort of lasting impact. Bernie was also already on stage with Biden and didn't land any direct blows.

Warren vs Biden I anticipate being very tasty. I think she's the one that might be able to do some actual damage.

I don't put much stock in 10 man main event PPVs as "debates" why I said at least down to 8.
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HeroDelTiempo17 posted...

Is Harris not considered a moderate to people?

She's kinda midway between. Maybe a little closer to Biden than Sander/Warren, but she's still talking about stuff like eliminating private insurance. The candidates with a lot of policy overlap with Biden are all polling at like 1-2%.

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LordoftheMorons posted...

HeroDelTiempo17 posted...

Is Harris not considered a moderate to people?

She's kinda midway between. Maybe a little closer to Biden than Sander/Warren, but she's still talking about stuff like eliminating private insurance. The candidates with a lot of policy overlap with Biden are all polling at like 1-2%.

Nah, she has informed rich donors in the Hamptons she will not be doing that :)
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Harris in debates is kinda worrying. The failure against Tulsi terrifies me if she fucks up against Biden

but then you remember Biden is completely out of his wits these days so
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I enjoy Tulsi quite a bit, so I liked that.
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LordoftheMorons posted...

She's kinda midway between. Maybe a little closer to Biden than Sander/Warren, but she's still talking about stuff like eliminating private insurance. The candidates with a lot of policy overlap with Biden are all polling at like 1-2%.

She definitely isn't eliminating private insurance. She said she'd personally get rid of HER OWN for a government plan. She wants private insurance regulated on a market with a public option.

She's very close to Biden except on this one thing - Biden wants to ride the legacy of Obamacare and paint everyone with any different plan as destroying healthcare.
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HeroDelTiempo17 posted...

She's very close to Biden except on this one thing - Biden wants to ride the legacy of Obamacare and paint everyone with any different plan as destroying healthcare.

i think Biden is also for a public option(It was an integral part of obamacare they couldnt keep).

You'd just never know at this point because he is incapable of articulating anything. Hell I admit I'm not even sure on his position on this anymore.
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Biden is very uninspiring. Like I detest Donald Trump, and I'll vote for whoever the candidate is. But if Biden is the candidate, I won't donate anything to his campaign. Whereas if it's Warren or Sanders, I'd actually donate. To me, Sanders and Warren are FOR something, and not just wanting the status quo. "Everything's fine! Sure, the house is STILL on fire, but it's less on fire than it was four years ago. And we plan on keeping it that way. Wait... put the fire out? No, then we might get cold."
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Grimlyn posted...

Harris in debates is kinda worrying. The failure against Tulsi terrifies me if she fucks up against Biden

but then you remember Biden is completely out of his wits these days so

The Biden/Booker showdown showed that it is impossible for Biden to attack her on this issue. Both Booker and Harris have been criticized for being too tough on crime and bad criminal justice policies. Harris being much worse. But Biden? Biden helped start that "tough on crime" shit! It's literally his fault so many politicians, Booker and Harris included, ran on those issues.
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I dont understand why anybody goes to all the trouble of running for president of the United States just to talk about what we really cant do and shouldnt fight for

still the best quote of the primaries
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Grimlyn posted...

Harris in debates is kinda worrying. The failure against Tulsi terrifies me if she fucks up against Biden

but then you remember Biden is completely out of his wits these days so

Definitely agree with this. She was in the top tier for me, but after seeing how badly she flailed against Tulsi I absolutely do not trust her to go head to head with Trump. That was an attack she should've seen coming and had an immediate counter for and she just didn't.
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red13n posted...

Go lock up some children for months Corrik. You literally cant talk a line when you are over the "Extreme disregard for basic human decency line".

Nice try.

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HeroDelTiempo17 posted...

She definitely isn't eliminating private insurance. She said she'd personally get rid of HER OWN for a government plan. She wants private insurance regulated on a market with a public option.

She's very close to Biden except on this one thing - Biden wants to ride the legacy of Obamacare and paint everyone with any different plan as destroying healthcare.

Looking into it, I misunderstood her plan somewhat. She would allow private insurance, but only if that plan is approved by the government. Not sure how many existing plans would be allowed to exist under it; given that they currently have to abide by ACA regulations, there shouldn't really be any junk plans left (besides the short term ones that the Trump admin has been recently approving). That's better than I thought, though; she had previously went back and forth several times. Not unrelatedly, Harris has been going back and forth with Warren in my candidate rankings!


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red13n posted...

i think Biden is also for a public option(It was an integral part of obamacare they couldnt keep).

Sure, I don't actually know what he's for. What I DO know is that he frames his health plan as an expansion of Obamacare and Medicare and disingenuously attacks all other plans, Harris's bootleg M4A included, as throwing out Obamacare as if he is the only one building on it.
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LordoftheMorons posted...

Looking into it, I misunderstood her plan somewhat.

to be fair that's the goal!

... although I guess in your case whoops you didn't get the message that would've appealed better to you lol
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Grimlyn posted...

I dont understand why anybody goes to all the trouble of running for president of the United States just to talk about what we really cant do and shouldnt fight for

still the best quote of the primaries

Still disagree! It strawmans moderates as thinking that more progressive policies are superior but being too afraid to pursue them, whereas in most cases they think the more moderate policies are actually better.

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LordoftheMorons posted...

Still disagree! It strawmans moderates as thinking that more progressive policies are superior but being too afraid to pursue them, whereas in most cases they think the more moderate policies are actually better.

The whole quote in context explains that's not the case:

"Our biggest problem in Washington is corruption. It is giant corporations that have taken our government and that are holding it by the throat. And we need to have the courage to fight back against that. And until we're ready to do that, it's just more of the same."

And Warren is 100% right. These big corporations John Delaney wants to work with are PART of the problem.
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HeroDelTiempo17 posted...

Sure, I don't actually know what he's for. What I DO know is that he frames his health plan as an expansion of Obamacare and Medicare and disingenuously attacks all other plans, Harris's bootleg M4A included, as throwing out Obamacare as if he is the only one building on it.

I don't love the way he's framing it, but there are a few associated arguments which I think hold up pretty well:

1. The ACA was a big fucking deal, and we should be proud of that and talk about it often (remember, defending the ACA was one of the primary arguments that led to the Dems' huge win in the midterms).

2. Maintaining private insurance serves as a safety valve both on a political and policy level. Many people fear that the government's replacement plan will be worse than their current insurance, which is not an irrational fear; massively overhauling a system serving hundreds of millions of people is inherently risky. If the replacement plan really is unambiguously better, everyone can switch over to the government option, but if it isn't for some people they can maintain their existing insurance.

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I think I disagree with LOTM on virtually every issue.
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red sox 777 posted...

I think I disagree with LOTM on virtually every issue.

I thought we agreed that CA's ballot measure system was dumb!

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M4A is just as risky as Britain's national health service.
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LordoftheMorons posted...

red sox 777 posted...

I think I disagree with LOTM on virtually every issue.

I thought we agreed that CA's ballot measure system was dumb!

That's true. I suppose we also agree on some criminal justice issues (locking people up is usually bad).
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LordoftheMorons posted...

1. The ACA was a big fucking deal, and we should be proud of that and talk about it often (remember, defending the ACA was one of the primary arguments that led to the Dems' huge win in the midterms).

2. Maintaining private insurance serves as a safety valve both on a political and policy level. Many people fear that the government's replacement plan will be worse than their current insurance, which is not an irrational fear; massively overhauling a system serving hundreds of millions of people is inherently risky. If the replacement plan really is unambiguously better, everyone can switch over to the government option, but if it isn't for some people they can maintain their existing insurance.

1. No one is disparaging the ACA. It is mild criticism at worst that just acknowledges its failing, which should be a necessity of any good plan going forward.

2. True, but all plans address this in their rollouts. And I do see the argument for a GOOD public option and think it would be a big improvement but not ideal. But Biden is fighting this on branding, not policy, he is fearmongering by complaining that the existing government plan will be replaced by...a government plan with a different name. It's helpful to no one except him.
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Disparaging the ACA is important. The electorate knows the ACA was a disaster. If a candidate can't look at it honestly and admit it was a failure, they can't really be trusted to build a better plan.
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on the contrary, by emphasizing the ACA as an accomplishment youre reminding the general electorate that the Democrats have made policy which has helped them, in contrast to Trump whos been busy trying to rip their healthcare away (and has been successful at making it more expensive by attempting to sabotage Obamacare).

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The ACA made healthcare expensive though. It is really bad, really expensive, healthcare.
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And sure, Trump has tried to sabotage it. But you can't fix it unless you've got enough political will to do it, and thanks to John McCain and co., there wasn't enough political will to do it. So Trump had to make it worse to create the political will to make things better.

And the plan has succeeded - most of the Democratic field now wants to scrap the ACA, along with almost all Republicans.
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red sox 777 posted...

and thanks to John McCain and co., there wasn't enough political will to do it.

Thanks to the American people across the country who showed up en masse to their local city halls to say how shitty it would be too lose their health insurance without even offering a comprehensive replacement.

They were trying to sell "repeal and replace" to the American people without even vaguely defining what the 'replace' might entail.
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