Board 8 > Politics Containment Topic 236: The Obama's new house is half baked

(+) Yeah! (+)

Obama was a great president. And its ridiculous to pretend that he didnt get anything accomplished. Expanding health coverage to tens of millions of people, preventing insurance companies from denying coverage for people with preexisting conditions, defining essential benefits that must be covered by all insurance plans, and eliminating lifetime caps are big fucking deals.

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Nelson_Mandela posted...

Does Bernie's solar/wind plan also factor in how reliance on those energy sources would essentially turn sub-Saharan Africa into a slave state to the mining industry?

America First!
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LordoftheMorons posted...

Obama was a great president. And its ridiculous to pretend that he didnt get anything accomplished. Expanding health coverage to tens of millions of people, preventing insurance companies from denying coverage for people with preexisting conditions, defining essential benefits that must be covered by all insurance plans, and eliminating lifetime caps are big fucking deals.

No he wasn't, he was weak and ineffectual. He expanded a drone program that has killed way too many innocents around the world. That health care plan, and hey thank God something was passed, was rolled out horribly, was watered down incredibly despite him having both the house AND the SENATE for two years, and its flaws so glaring by the end of his term that it became widely unpopular and an easy attack.

I am grateful we got something, but it wasn't good.
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that certainly is a post
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Sir Chris and I are aligned that Obama was a terrible president. Who says Americans can't come together?
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I very much agree that LotM is a big time centrist that brings up silly issues with "the left" (especially in regards to health care)... but in this case it certainly seems the response has been way over the top against him, it's overly hostile and defensive
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It's incredible that you all on Board 8 can "post" without knowing or asking what I am doing, which will be announced shortly. We will have a very strong contest and a very weak Board 8.

I will work "brilliantly" with both, and gameFAQs will do great.
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Discussions aren't in a vacuum. I feel no need to measure my response on this issue because he follows people with no vision for this country other than failure and to suggest because he disagrees with one portion of massive plan, that's just a plan by the way it isn't coming up for a vote today or anything, it means Bernie isn't taking things seriously is just too far for my civility to handle. So I won't even try.
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People like to hate on Obamacare but the alternative was status quo. No one was getting true universal coverage passed. And you know what Bernie isn't going to do? He isn't going to get true full public health care passed. At least not in his first two years.

You know what would get me immediately on board with a candidate(I'm undecided right now), coming up with a plan on what they are going to do in the short term without full control to shore up Obamacare so we arent fucked in the short term while saying they will work on a plan for true health care for all when the opportunity arises.

As it stands everyone is debating pipe dreams. Which is fun, but also not practical in the immediate short term(Which is also important). Right now pretty much none of the candidates are being fully honest and realistic with their goals.
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By the way I have no idea if any of you are even correct on nuclear, but I have consistently given all of you the benefit of the doubt that you are. Did you even notice that? I didn't say "no you're wrong and stupid" or anything of that nature. I am one of the biggest Bernie Sanders supporters here and I immediately said "if that's true then I am sure that can be amended." But it offends people so much to have any view that's too extreme, even if discussion might bring that view closer to their own. Our planet is in trouble and literally it is more important to some people that "Nuclear energy being attacked is a pet peeve of mine, ERGH" and being hung up on that.
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To be perfectly clear, I'm claiming that if Bernie were president, he would get less done on climate change than someone with "less bold goals" who is still committed to solving the problem. Shutting down existing nuclear plants hurts the environment.

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LordoftheMorons posted...

Obama was a great president. And its ridiculous to pretend that he didnt get anything accomplished. Expanding health coverage to tens of millions of people, preventing insurance companies from denying coverage for people with preexisting conditions, defining essential benefits that must be covered by all insurance plans, and eliminating lifetime caps are big fucking deals.

Literally one Supreme Court justice from that allllllll going away forever.

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chris drinks heavily from the republican no-compromise kool-aid.

which would unfortunately get almost nothing done(This is why chris is not a politician).
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red13n posted...

People like to hate on Obamacare but the alternative was status quo. No one was getting true universal coverage passed. And you know what Bernie isn't going to do? He isn't going to get true full public health care passed. At least not in his first two years.

You know what would get me immediately on board with a candidate(I'm undecided right now), coming up with a plan on what they are going to do in the short term without full control to shore up Obamacare so we arent fucked in the short term while saying they will work on a plan for true health care for all when the opportunity arises.

As it stands everyone is debating pipe dreams. Which is fun, but also not practical in the immediate short term(Which is also important). Right now pretty much none of the candidates are being fully honest and realistic with their goals.

The only reason we didn't have better health care passed is because the Democrats take money from big pharma and the insurance industry. Period the end. You don't have the Senate and the House and then get what you got. No, that's just not true on your part and is revisionist history. Of course status quo sucked, and therefore we must be exceedingly happy with whatever we get. Or, we can recognize that while some progress was made it was deeply flawed and one of the reasons it was deeply flawed is because it was a Republican health care plan passed by a Democratic President.

Obamacare had its time. I am grateful for the people it was able to help, I mean that very sincerely as someone who lost a parent to illness, but we need better now. And we need to stop admitting defeat before we even try to fight like Red just did here.
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red13n posted...

chris drinks heavily from the republican no-compromise kool-aid.

which would unfortunately get almost nothing done(This is why chris is not a politician).

Republicans get a lot of things they want. Tax cuts for the rich, Obama didn't have his supreme court justice confirmed. Maybe, just maybe, the reason Republicans win so much is they fight even though they are often comic book villains.
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Like you can mock the Republicans all you want, but they are winners in this country. I can't stand their platform, but just looking on policies past in the last 20 years the Republican party has stomped the Democratic party.
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DoomTheGyarados posted...

The only reason we didn't have better health care passed is because the Democrats take money from big pharma and the insurance industry. Period the end. You don't have the Senate and the House and then get what you got. No, that's just not true on your part and is revisionist history. Of course status quo sucked, and therefore we must be exceedingly happy with whatever we get. Or, we can recognize that while some progress was made it was deeply flawed and one of the reasons it was deeply flawed is because it was a Republican health care plan passed by a Democratic President.

Obamacare had its time. I am grateful for the people it was able to help, I mean that very sincerely as someone who lost a parent to illness, but we need better now. And we need to stop admitting defeat before we even try to fight like Red just did here.

no one is admitting defeat or saying we shouldnt fight for it.

Hell no one is saying Democrats werent fucking idiots for not going bold. But the fact is change still has to happen bottom down and we didn't have enough progressives in office to push it through. There was no way Obama could have convince enough to go for it.
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I think we can agree Obamacare was a great step in the right direction while also admitting it's heavily flawed and we still need something better. Saying "Obamacare did nothing" or "Obamacare is all we need" are both equally ridiculous statements.
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More generally, the reason I bring up critiques of left wing plans in this topic series is because I do generally think that most people in here want a lot of the same things as me on a big picture level (stopping climate change, achieving universal healthcare coverage, etc) and I believe there are better ways to achieve those goals. This is in contrast with a lot of people on the right who want different things, and may or may not be pursuing those goals rationally.

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Look, I believe Nuclear energy is valuable and has its place, but Bernies intentionally bold proposal is lets get entirely green energy, and as much of a better option it is over fossil fuels, it still creates 10,000 tonnes of toxic waste every year.

LordoftheMorons posted...

To be perfectly clear, I'm claiming that if Bernie were president, he would get less done on climate change than someone with "less bold goals" who is still committed to solving the problem. Shutting down existing nuclear plants hurts the environment.

Does he propose shutting down nuclear plants with no replacement? Why are you like this

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LordoftheMorons posted...

To be perfectly clear, I'm claiming that if Bernie were president, he would get less done on climate change than someone with "less bold goals" who is still committed to solving the problem. Shutting down existing nuclear plants hurts the environment.

I think this is also a pretty bad take since nowhere did he suggest just shutting nuclear down and then "Iunno after that."
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Also for the record, I fully agree that I am drinking the no compromise kool-aid. Because republicans still get the things they want for being that way. It's a winning strategy to rile up your base and make people give a fuck. It works. That's what I am saying. How can any of you deny this? The Republican strategy works.
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To last topic, I always find it funny when people are not posting in "good faith" when they do not agree with you. It is an egotistical argument. You are saying that you cannot possibly be wrong and unless they eventually upon debating see your side as correct that they weren't arguing in good faith.



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Now, I say this as someone who wants Bernie to be the 2020 Democratic nominee:

To me, the way Bernie campaigns is way too similar to the way Trump campaigns for my liking. They both campaign in very populist fashions, offering a lot of feel-good proposals to their base without a ton of noticeable substance. To me, both of them dumb things down to try and appeal to simpletons that cant comprehend complexity and nuance (also, Id like to add that the previous statement is not directed at anyone in this topic series, but rather the American electorate as a whole.) Now, in terms of campaigning to win an election, thats fine. I just hate the way populism feels like it insists on keeping the people stupid and appeased, rather than attempting to boost their understanding of the realities of the world. I wish political campaigns would reward intelligence and planning over charisma (this goes back to Trump and Obama and Bush Jr. and Clinton and Reagan/Bush Sr.).

I dunno, its just frustrating to be a moderate sometimes.
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DoomTheGyarados posted...

Like you can mock the Republicans all you want, but they are winners in this country. I can't stand their platform, but just looking on policies past in the last 20 years the Republican party has stomped the Democratic party.

Their voters are white, uneducated, racist and the rich. Democrats aren't courting these voters no matter what. If you start becoming the party of "no" like the Republicans, that isn't going to fly with your own party base unfortunately.
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Espeon posted...

Now, I say this as someone who wants Bernie to be the 2020 Democratic nominee:

To me, the way Bernie campaigns is way too similar to the way Trump campaigns for my liking. They both campaign in very populist fashions, offering a lot of feel-good proposals to their base without a ton of noticeable substance. To me, both of them dumb things down to try and appeal to simpletons that cant comprehend complexity and nuance (also, Id like to add that the previous statement is not directed at anyone in this topic series, but rather the American electorate as a whole.) Now, in terms of campaigning to win an election, thats fine. I just hate the way populism feels like it insists on keeping the people stupid and appeased, rather than attempting to boost their understanding of the realities of the world. I wish political campaigns would reward intelligence and planning over charisma (this goes back to Trump and Obama and Bush Jr. and Clinton and Reagan/Bush Sr.).

I dunno, its just frustrating to be a moderate sometimes.

Thats literally how you win. A policy over personality President hasnt won since Bush Sr, and he only got one term.

Trump
Obama
Bush
Clinton


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red13n posted...

DoomTheGyarados posted...

Like you can mock the Republicans all you want, but they are winners in this country. I can't stand their platform, but just looking on policies past in the last 20 years the Republican party has stomped the Democratic party.

Their voters are white, uneducated, racist and the rich. Democrats aren't courting these voters no matter what. If you start becoming the party of "no" like the Republicans, that isn't going to fly with your own party base unfortunately.

Yes it will. I bet you it will. Look at the polling data - Bernie polls best with minorities. It works. People like populism. People like fighters. We will see who wins this, and maybe it in't Bernie, but it's not because the strategy is god awful.
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Espeon posted...

I wish political campaigns would reward intelligence and planning over charisma (this goes back to Trump and Obama and Bush Jr. and Clinton and Reagan/Bush Sr.).

I hope you dont value democracy as the best system while also wishing for this

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DoomTheGyarados posted...

Also for the record, I fully agree that I am drinking the no compromise kool-aid. Because republicans still get the things they want for being that way. It's a winning strategy to rile up your base and make people give a fuck. It works. That's what I am saying. How can any of you deny this? The Republican strategy works.

We'd have so many Americans uninsured right now. There is no world in which that is a good thing. We'd literally be status quo 2000 health care.

Thats not in any way a good thing. Thats not working.

Thats "winning" for the sake of winning.
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Think of this: If an idiot like Trump can get to be President campaigning like that, why shouldn't Bernie? It works! Copy cat league, baby.
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red13n posted...

DoomTheGyarados posted...

Also for the record, I fully agree that I am drinking the no compromise kool-aid. Because republicans still get the things they want for being that way. It's a winning strategy to rile up your base and make people give a fuck. It works. That's what I am saying. How can any of you deny this? The Republican strategy works.

We'd have so many Americans uninsured right now. There is no world in which that is a good thing. We'd literally be status quo 2000 health care.

Thats not in any way a good thing. Thats not working.

Thats "winning" for the sake of winning.

No, because the fighting was all in the democratic party. If they were like Republicans, they would have bickered behind closed doors like adults, passed better health care, rolled it out better, and flayed any Republican who voted against it.
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DoomTheGyarados posted...

Think of this: If an idiot like Trump can get to be President campaigning like that, why shouldn't Bernie? It works! Copy cat league, baby.

Chris are you ok?
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Im kinda with Chris that the time for incremental improvement through compromise is never

But I also accept that thats the best we can realistically hope for

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Actually I am doing very well, in all seriousness. Live with my fiance and our son now, outside of a medical issue forcing a career change (kind of a bummer but I have gotten a lot of support) so this is a great time for me. I am on zoloft too, super helpful.

But what I am saying is, in a bit of a glib manner there, is it is ok to take the tactics of the other side if they clearly work. Not the stances or the villainy, but if Bernie reminds you of Trump in terms of style... Trump won, guys. And Bernie is a lot smarter and more informed. I'll take my chances.
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DoomTheGyarados posted...

No, because the fighting was all in the democratic party. If they were like Republicans, they would have bickered behind closed doors like adults, passed better health care, rolled it out better, and flayed any Republican who voted against it.

This is not true. You saw Republicans try to come up with a health care plan.

They came out with nothing. They bickered publicly. Even Trump admitted defeat.
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Hell do you remember when the Republicans were fighting because their own members couldn't even see their health care plan?

Their entire attempt at health care legislation was pure delicious failing chaos.
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ChaosTonyV4 posted...

Espeon posted...

Now, I say this as someone who wants Bernie to be the 2020 Democratic nominee:

To me, the way Bernie campaigns is way too similar to the way Trump campaigns for my liking. They both campaign in very populist fashions, offering a lot of feel-good proposals to their base without a ton of noticeable substance. To me, both of them dumb things down to try and appeal to simpletons that cant comprehend complexity and nuance (also, Id like to add that the previous statement is not directed at anyone in this topic series, but rather the American electorate as a whole.) Now, in terms of campaigning to win an election, thats fine. I just hate the way populism feels like it insists on keeping the people stupid and appeased, rather than attempting to boost their understanding of the realities of the world. I wish political campaigns would reward intelligence and planning over charisma (this goes back to Trump and Obama and Bush Jr. and Clinton and Reagan/Bush Sr.).

I dunno, its just frustrating to be a moderate sometimes.

Thats literally how you win. A policy over personality President hasnt won since Bush Sr, and he only got one term.

Trump
Obama
Bush
Clinton

Thats what I have a problem with though and I wish our democracy wasnt that way. I know its not gonna change things and were just gonna keep circling the drain until Clay Aiken vs. Kid Rock in 2032, but its something that has honestly bothered me ever since I cast my first presidential vote in 2008, against Barack Obama.
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DoomTheGyarados posted...

Also for the record, I fully agree that I am drinking the no compromise kool-aid. Because republicans still get the things they want for being that way. It's a winning strategy to rile up your base and make people give a fuck. It works. That's what I am saying. How can any of you deny this? The Republican strategy works.

This is why I think if Biden is the candidate, he loses. The only thing Biden really has going for him is: Donald Trump is really fucking awful. That's not really going to swing a lot of voters who's lives aren't REALLY being impacted by his worst policies (and even some of them will still vote for the party of leopards eating people's faces, even after a leopard has eaten their face).
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DoomTheGyarados posted...

Think of this: If an idiot like Trump can get to be President campaigning like that, why shouldn't Bernie? It works! Copy cat league, baby.

also I think this is wrong.

Bernie and Trump both speak to the people, but thats where their similarities lie. Bernie has a consistent vision and stump speech that he will say in front of anyone, while Trump literally just promises whatever he thinks his base wants.

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red13n posted...

DoomTheGyarados posted...

No, because the fighting was all in the democratic party. If they were like Republicans, they would have bickered behind closed doors like adults, passed better health care, rolled it out better, and flayed any Republican who voted against it.

This is not true. You saw Republicans try to come up with a health care plan.

They came out with nothing. They bickered publicly. Even Trump admitted defeat.

In fairness a lot of that was John McCain sends his regards in epic fuck you fashion and less about pure politics.

Which was great and I am now smiling.

Anyway on numerous issues the Republicans are able to be lock step in evil ways, was my point.,
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I mean I hate "the other side's" tactics even more than I hate their actual policies so you really are not doing a good job of winning me over, at least.
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Jakyl25 posted...

Espeon posted...

I wish political campaigns would reward intelligence and planning over charisma (this goes back to Trump and Obama and Bush Jr. and Clinton and Reagan/Bush Sr.).

I hope you dont value democracy as the best system while also wishing for this

Given Californias gay marriage vote in 2008, Brexit, and Trump, Im really questioning why democracy is considered so damn wonderful.
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Look I know it is a little nuance I am saying don't bring the stupid of the Republicans just the stubbornness. A little bit of nuance here okay!
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pyresword posted...

I mean I hate "the other side's" tactics even more than I hate their actual policies so you really are not doing a good job of winning me over, at least.

I don't care about you, then. If style is fundamentally more important to you than substance then I don't care to speak to you.
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Espeon posted...

Given Californias gay marriage vote in 2008, Brexit, and Trump, Im really questioning why democracy is considered so damn wonderful.

hail
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Because when it isn't Democracy you get Russia outlawing being gay, Europe besieged with endless war as royalty fight over land in a sense of mistaken pride, and far worse leaders than even Trump.

Democracy is the hope, not always the execution.
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Espeon posted...

Given Californias gay marriage vote in 2008, Brexit, and Trump, Im really questioning why democracy is considered so damn wonderful.

To be fair to Democracy, if we were a Direct Democracy, we'd be hearing FOX News Constantly ask "WHEN WILL IMPEACHMENT INQUIRIES START OVER THOSE EMAILS!" and "The President shouldn't get to select Supreme Court Justices anymore, that should be done by the Senate.'

As for Same Sex Marriage, that's why we've got the Supreme Court and the constitution. And the Supreme Court made the right decision for once in Obergfell v. Hodges. SCOTUS should be a check on Democracy (unfortunately this isn't always true)
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I mean, ultimately when I see Bernie promising me cake when I know I'll probably only get pie, it's still better than Biden promising me the same old sauerkraut that he insists will be good once Trump's not the one making it.

I'm getting pretty sick of "Things are bad! Well, not really. Kinda bad. Sorta bad. We'll make changes. Tiny changes. It's actually pretty good, you know. We'll see."
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Espeon posted...

Thats what I have a problem with though and I wish our democracy wasnt that way. I know its not gonna change things and were just gonna keep circling the drain until Clay Aiken vs. Kid Rock in 2032, but its something that has honestly bothered me ever since I cast my first presidential vote in 2008, against Barack Obama.

You literally heard Sarah Palin speak and thought Yeah, Id be ok if that person is President.

She almost single-handedly inspired the current Right-Wing populism, that was HER THING, so Im incredibly confused by this.
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Sarah Palin wasnt the one running for president.
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