Board 8 > Spider-Man out of the MCU

(+) Yeah! (+)

People who are suffering superhero fatigue must just not watch any television show.
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scarletspeed7 posted...

People who are suffering superhero fatigue must just not watch any television show.

I watched Parks and Rec a year or two ago!

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So you should have mockumentary fatigue.
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Lightning Strikes posted...

CoolCly posted...

To be clear, the deal for Spidey originally was extremely atrocious for Marvel - they do all of the work and get none of the financial benefit.

They just really wanted Spidey in their movies. There's plenty for room to argue that they benefited from having him around anyways and they most certainly did

But it's not outrageous or greedy for them to want to renegotiate an equal deal when they are the ones making magic happen. They've proven they know how to make live action Spidey great and successful while Sony doesn't. It would be silly to keep handing all of the profit to Sony.

To say "Sony just wanted to keep the same deal as the first two movies." as if that's a fair and equitable thing and they are being reasonable is pretty absurd.

Disney could probably come down on 50/50 but taking the same deal as before would be pretty bad. I'd guess it's Sony refusing to come up at all here.

This is completely incorrect. Sony produce the films entirely, including complete financing, distribution, and marketing. Marvel has creative oversight but that is it. Even that is not complete creative control, the Far From Home mid-credits scene was Sony's proposal for instance. It is the other way around, Sony were the ones doing the work. Marvel also get 100% of merchandising. 5% is actually better than the original deal too, which was a flat fee.

Make no mistake - the Tom Holland Spider-Man movies are Sony pictures. Sony made the films with Marvel's help, not the other way around.

I'm sure a deal will be reached though, hopefully not depending on Disney further tightening their grip on everything.

Now, I notice you say "Sony produce the films entirely, including complete financing, distribution, and marketing" which makes it a Sony picture except you left out a small crucial piece of of the puzzle of making a movie which is actually making the movie. Production.

Marvel made the movies, full stop. You are wrong about that. They cast the film, their composer that did Doctor Strange did the score, Victoria Alonso was the producer who made most of the decisions, they chose the directors and screenwriters and worked with them to plot out the movie, they worked with the FX vendors... literally every step of production was done by Marvel. Everything about how those movies were made came from Marvel, not Sony. They brought in their people that knew what they were doing and made awesome movies. The expertise that led to everything in these movies would have been absent if Marvel was not involved.

Sony financed the film of course, Marvel wouldn't spend the $200 million to make the movie and not get any return at all, which is why the new Disney proposal is cofinancing, not just a share in the profits. They both contribute to the budget and proportionally get profit back.

Distribution, sure, but distribution is completely separate from making the film and is often done by a different company than the one who actually makes the movie, which is the case here.

The deal could be summarized as this. "hey Marvel here's $200 million go make me a movie. ok thanks for the movie I'm gonna sell this and keep all the money thanks for doing that, see ya next time"
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scarletspeed7 posted...

So you should have mockumentary fatigue.

my boss DOES seem to quote and watch a lot of Office I guess

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This does have me wondering once again what superhero media would look like if the characters were allowed to lapse into public domain. Was thinking about it yesterday and just read apparently under old laws, stuff from the 60s (aka Marvel characters) would have been hitting public domain around this year.

There's tons of great stories out there about Not Superman so it'd probably be fine, and seeing studios just go wild with classic characters would be way more entertaining than copyright minutiae.
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Waluigi1 posted...

You're not gonna see less of him...

HashtagSEP posted...

Don't worry, it's still gonna be Tom Holland as Spiderman.

Just probably in worse movies

Fuck

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Maybe that's the play

"Sorry Sony, Spider-Man is public domain, you can't stop us from using him in our Marvel movies anymore"
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The Mouse imposed copyright purgatory on us and only The Mouse may free us
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Disney launched a fake social media campaign against Sony with bots.

https://twitter.com/Dataracer117/status/1164079850950397952?s=19
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Sony (or more specifically, Columbia) co-produce the films with Marvel. They are also credited as the main production company. So Marvel has a role but the bulk is handled by Sony, including co-production. Even just looking at the credits Sony's in-house team worked on the VFX. It certainly wasn't a case of just handing it over to Marvel.
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how do we know that disney did this

because i thought about doing this

the only thing that held me back was competency
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Grimlyn posted...

I think Dunst MJ really dampens a lot of my care for Raimi spideys

although also the strong association with nickelback

Punnyz posted...

Hero is legit one of their only few good songs, dawg

And it's not even technically nickelback!
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Lightning Strikes posted...

Sony (or more specifically, Columbia) co-produce the films with Marvel. They are also credited as the main production company. So Marvel has a role but the bulk is handled by Sony, including co-production. Even just looking at the credits Sony's in-house team worked on the VFX. It certainly wasn't a case of just handing it over to Marvel.

I mean they also worked on Captain America and Captain America: TWS. Are you gonna say those are Sony films, too?

I'd really like a source on how these were "completely Sony films" as you say, since Cly kinda highlighted how Marvel very much lead the production, so something disproving that would be nice to see.
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LinkMarioSamus posted...

The only reaction I can really come up with to this is, well, maybe the suspension of James Gunn was a warning sign for the MCU. I've also seen lots of people online say the announced slate of upcoming MCU films makes it look like it's going in a SJW direction, which...I disagree with rather bitterly.

How boorish

LapisLazuli posted...

Disney launched a fake social media campaign against Sony with bots.

https://twitter.com/Dataracer117/status/1164079850950397952?s=19

No no. In today's world you go full conspiracy Sony launched a bot campaign to make it seem like Disney launched a fake social media campaign against Sony with bots.

Also even if Tom Holland still play Spider Man, it's still a good thing considering how being part of the MCU was the main reason Homecoming sucked
It wasn't a Spiderman movie. It was a Iron Man movie

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Nanis23 posted...

It wasn't a Spiderman movie. It was a Iron Man movie

This is categorically false. Iron Man is in the movie for less than ten minutes. The movie is about Spidey, but you're Nanis so I guess you have to complain!

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Nanis23 posted...

It wasn't a Spiderman movie. It was a Iron Man movie

I know your whole gimmick is "Say the dumbest shit possible in order to be negative, no matter what the cost," but this is a stretch even for you.
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To be fair, Far From Home has Iron Man in the movie for literally zero minutes but it still found a way to be about Iron Man!
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Howard and Tony Stark are responsible for the following supervillains:
Obadiah Stane
Whiplash
Adrich Killian
Vulture
Mysterio
Ultron
Hydra's existence post-WWII, since Howard worked at Shield for fifty years and never noticed it was infiltrated, therefore: Baron Strucker, Winter Soldier, Robert Redford's character, that one guy from Captain America 3, Crossbones

If there's a villain with weak motivations based on inferiority complexes, it's a safe bet it's their fault.
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Thanos and Loki are both partially the responsibility of Tony Stark because if Stark Industries had focused on building that containment system for the Cube, none of Avengers 1 would have happened, and it would have even potentially led to less activity from Thanos on Earth. So Tony Stark, in effect, is the reason Earth is overpopulated and will die under the burden of humanity's gluttonous consumption.
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Howard is also indirectly responsible for Abomination and Hulk, and General Ross's entire career utilizing them, since he apparently recreated the super soldier serum after the recipe was lost...and then failed to secure the knowledge somewhere before being assassinated, leading the government to once again make bootleg versions.
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UltimaterializerX posted...

lol

Every single movie past 2 is trash, and this includes Spiderverse. I thought that movie was okay but its obnoxious fanbase has moved it thoroughly into the garbage category. People actually call that thing the best superhero movie ever? Fuck out of here.

From GQ: Sony is clearly feeling emboldened by the solo success of Spider-Man: Into the Spider-Verse.

And thats the other reason I will ALWAYS hate that movie.

Ulti, it's interesting that you wonder why B8 at large is still ostracizing you even though you've apparently made these great efforts to improve in the past year or two, and then you make posts like this. First off, MrGreenonion's post was obvious sarcasm.

More importantly, though, you're calling an entire movie garbage mainly because of its "obnoxious" fanbase, which has committed the great crime of having a substantially different opinion from yours. It's one thing to not like or even hate something a whole lot of people love on its own merits, and a whole other thing to shit on that thing in no uncertain terms because other people love it, like you've done.

(Apologies to anyone who didn't want to read an Ulti post.)
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Murphiroth posted...

This is categorically false. Iron Man is in the movie for less than ten minutes. The movie is about Spidey, but you're Nanis so I guess you have to complain!

It's not about screentime, it's about influence
The whole movie is about Peter trying to impress Tony
Whenever he fails, Tony is there to save the day
The suit that takes a major part in the movie? Tony made it

I miss it when Spiderman was all by himself, with powers he got by himself, trying to impress..himself
Not some kid with daddy issues

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Nanis23 posted...

Not some kid with daddy issues

How you know someone has never watched or read Spider-Man in any iteration.
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Nanis23 posted...

Not some kid with daddy issues

That's the entire character in like every iteration

Are you serious
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Iron Man had too much presence in Homecoming, onscreen and off, is a totally valid complaint. But wow, Nanis sure has managed to Nanis this one up.

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TC checking in with another hot take

far from home was bottom tier marvel. characterization for all the supporting cast was way worse and the big battle at the end is boring. the only good scene is the mysterio illusion sequence which is really good but only occurs once.

colliding posted...

TC checking in with another hot take

far from home was bottom tier marvel. characterization for all the supporting cast was way worse and the big battle at the end is boring. the only good scene is the mysterio illusion sequence which is really good but only occurs once.

Yikes
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When Ulti saw Spiderverse, he actually did make a couple posts being like "hey I saw this...and I didn't think it was very good.... why does everyone like it? What am I missing? is there something I didn't get????" like he genuinely wanted to know but I don't think anybody engaged him on it

Now he's moved into full "this is a trash movie and anybody who likes it is dumb" mode on it.
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I think thats hotter than the fire elemental they fought in Prague!

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CoolCly posted...

Now he's moved into full "this is a trash movie and anybody who likes it is dumb" mode on it.

to be fair it sounds like somewhere in there he had bad experiences with folks who did like it

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HashtagSEP posted...

Lightning Strikes posted...

Sony (or more specifically, Columbia) co-produce the films with Marvel. They are also credited as the main production company. So Marvel has a role but the bulk is handled by Sony, including co-production. Even just looking at the credits Sony's in-house team worked on the VFX. It certainly wasn't a case of just handing it over to Marvel.

I mean they also worked on Captain America and Captain America: TWS. Are you gonna say those are Sony films, too?

I'd really like a source on how these were "completely Sony films" as you say, since Cly kinda highlighted how Marvel very much lead the production, so something disproving that would be nice to see.

Fair enough, but the proof is in the producer credits. The film was co-produced by Feige and Pascal. Also look at any Amy Pascal interview on the topic. Like I said the mid-credits scene came from them. I'd recommend Empire's spoiler podcast on Far From Home which has interviews with Watts, Feige and Pascal, it's bits and pieces but has good insight into the input Marvel and Sony had. Not to mention Watts himself - the guy who actually made the film.

Either way you can't deny that Sony financing, distributing, marketing and co-producing a film is a lot more than nothing which was always the point.
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lmao they are not going to give up a slice of Spider-Man merch for a slice of ticket sales

Sony has no leverage for that type of deal, if they tank new Spider-Man movies then they hurt themselves, and Disney will continue to sell merch regardless
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UltimaterializerX posted...

I watched the movie, didnt get it, and made multiple posts asking people here I greatly respect what the deal was. I was in no way trolling about not liking the movie and its not some new thing. I didnt like it from day one.

That's fair, you're well within your rights to have that opinion and I'll respect that. It just struck me as a bit questionable that you said its fanbase's incessant praise caused your opinion about it to drop from "okay" to "garbage", but then again, I don't browse Twitter.

UltimaterializerX posted...

The main issue is clearly me being a movie-only guy, but hey. Actual comics are just not my thing.

For what little it's worth, I don't think I've read a comic book in my life and I still really enjoyed Spider-Verse, especially its visuals. Anyways, I'm certainly not here to convince you to give it a third chance - two is more than enough, considering you weren't exactly enamored with it the first time.

UltimaterializerX posted...

Add in this shit and I will absolutely never give that or any other Sony movie a chance ever again.

This, however, is just dumb in my opinion. Yes, other Sony movies are being shepherded by the same administration, but there's a totally different set of creative players at hand for each one, so it would be foolish to assume you automatically won't like any given Sony movie just because others loved Spider-Verse and you didn't. Now it would be a whole other thing if, say, you choose to boycott Sony movies because they won't play ball with Disney.
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Lightning Strikes posted...

HashtagSEP posted...

Lightning Strikes posted...

Sony (or more specifically, Columbia) co-produce the films with Marvel. They are also credited as the main production company. So Marvel has a role but the bulk is handled by Sony, including co-production. Even just looking at the credits Sony's in-house team worked on the VFX. It certainly wasn't a case of just handing it over to Marvel.

I mean they also worked on Captain America and Captain America: TWS. Are you gonna say those are Sony films, too?

I'd really like a source on how these were "completely Sony films" as you say, since Cly kinda highlighted how Marvel very much lead the production, so something disproving that would be nice to see.

Fair enough, but the proof is in the producer credits. The film was co-produced by Feige and Pascal. Also look at any Amy Pascal interview on the topic. Like I said the mid-credits scene came from them. I'd recommend Empire's spoiler podcast on Far From Home which has interviews with Watts, Feige and Pascal, it's bits and pieces but has good insight into the input Marvel and Sony had. Not to mention Watts himself - the guy who actually made the film.

Either way you can't deny that Sony financing, distributing, marketing and co-producing a film is a lot more than nothing which was always the point.

Oh, right. I agree Sony didn't do nothing. They did a lot more than nothing. You just tried to counter him by suggesting Sony did it all and Marvel basically just stood by quietly giving suggestions, which isn't true at all, either. Both did their fair share of legwork. I think his main point, even if not presented as fairly as it could have been, is that Marvel put in a lot of work on the production side, and it was ultimately their process that helped make it what it was.
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Eh, Sony has the leverage here to get a deal since Marvels plans all revolve around spiderman.

Disney is just trying to play hardball and apparently has an in with a guy at Deadline.
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I have in with a guy at Deadshot. I should phone in a story.
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UltimaterializerX posted...

MetalmindStats posted...

Ulti, it's interesting that you wonder why B8 at large is still ostracizing you even though you've apparently made these great efforts to improve in the past year or two, and then you make posts like this. First off, MrGreenonion's post was obvious sarcasm.

More importantly, though, you're calling an entire movie garbage mainly because of its "obnoxious" fanbase, which has committed the great crime of having a substantially different opinion from yours. It's one thing to not like or even hate something a whole lot of people love on its own merits, and a whole other thing to shit on that thing in no uncertain terms because other people love it, like you've done.

(Apologies to anyone who didn't want to read an Ulti post.)

I watched the movie, didnt get it, and made multiple posts asking people here I greatly respect what the deal was. I was in no way trolling about not liking the movie and its not some new thing. I didnt like it from day one. I dont hate people on B8 who like it, either. You guys are exempt. My ire is directed at Sony and the idiots on twitter who think its the best superhero movie + best animated movie ever made, because its pretty clear thats why Sony is pulling this shit. And those people ARE obnoxious, too. Make no mistake about it. Theyre going around actually saying 5% of a profit is a good deal in a partnership if one side is wealthier than the other. Just utterly moronic nonsense.

I thought the preview looked dumb, gave it a chance anyway, and didnt like it. Theres a few things I like but overall its just not good. Watched it a second time and thought it royally sucked. The main issue is clearly me being a movie-only guy, but hey. Actual comics are just not my thing. Add in this shit and I will absolutely never give that or any other Sony movie a chance ever again.

Watch like the Cinema wins video or something like that. Then maybe you'll have an idea of why it's good?

Maybe you're just too old and crotchety to get it lol.
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Eddv posted...

Eh, Sony has the leverage here to get a deal since Marvels plans all revolve around spiderman

Wha? How so? Cause last I checked, they have a whole timeline for the next 3+ years laid out and Spiderman wasn't mentioned anywhere. They were fine for like 8 years without Spiderman so I think they'll he fine going forward without him if they have to.
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Waluigi1 posted...

Eddv posted...

Eh, Sony has the leverage here to get a deal since Marvels plans all revolve around spiderman

Wha? How so? Cause last I checked, they have a whole timeline for the next 3+ years laid out and Spiderman wasn't mentioned anywhere. They were fine for like 8 years without Spiderman so I think they'll he fine going forward without him if they have to.

Not to mention that timeline ain't even covering their recent Fox acquisitions.

tho man how we gonna miss a Wolverine-Spidey team up
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Waluigi1 posted...

Eddv posted...

Eh, Sony has the leverage here to get a deal since Marvels plans all revolve around spiderman

Wha? How so? Cause last I checked, they have a whole timeline for the next 3+ years laid out and Spiderman wasn't mentioned anywhere. They were fine for like 8 years without Spiderman so I think they'll he fine going forward without him if they have to.

Simple logic.

What are you gonna do, book the next Avengers movie around Sam fucking Wilson?

Spiderman needs to come front and center with no Iron Man, no Cap, and likely less and less Hulk/Hawkeye/Thor.
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It's conjecture, but it's likely Spiderman was not mentioned purely because that a deal was not met. That and there might have been other factors (like Sony wanting to announce something first etc).

As for the Fox stuff, that's simply because it's still too early to introduce them beyond just saying "we are working on it)

It's been very clear that Marvel has been trying to move Spiderman into a bigger role within the MCU (this being a smart move is debatable) but before the MCU he was far and away the most popular Marvel character. I mean, the movies basically gave him access to Stark technology now, losing him makes a pretty glaring hole in the overall story. I'm also pretty sure that Kraven the Hunter was indeed the planned villain for spider man 3.

There was a chance, that despite that he's not actually on the team in the comics, he might have been in plans for something like Young Avengers given his age and that he's been established. This is something that would obviously come post Phase 5 (you have to introduce the fantastic 4 first), but I could see it happening.

Also, on Sony spiderman movies.

I think most people know I really like the original run (at least 1 and 2) and I consider Spiderman 2 to be on of the best superhero movies ever made. However, 3 and the Andrew Garfield ones were not good. I understand the team that would be behind the next one would be different but i don't have a lot of faith right now. I kind of agree with Ulti on into the spiderverse too. I thought it was fun to watch, but I was not completely blown away.

Yeah, the whole point of Far From Home was to establish that Spidey was going to fill the void Iron Man left behind.
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