Board 8 > Spider-Man out of the MCU

(+) Yeah! (+)

Why is Spider-Man's incorporation into other MCU films, plus a large profit in merchandising, not a fair trade for time spent developing Spider-Man films? That was Disney/Marvel's goal, no?

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redrocket posted...

I think thats hotter than the fire elemental they fought in Prague!

"They couldve settled with 50/50 but they didnt
Because it is [fair]
Both parties get an equal amount"

"Marvel created the character not Sony
I dont care about monopolies
This needs to happen
...
People out there crying monopoly at Disney
I dont know how to respond to this
Disneys a company. I guess companies do that"

"Monopolies arent that bad"

"I feel like beating the shit out of someone right now
Maybe Sonys CEO
Disney was in the right"
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HeroicSpiderPig posted...

Why is Spider-Man's incorporation into other MCU films, plus a large profit in merchandising, not a fair trade for time spent developing Spider-Man films? That was Disney/Marvel's goal, no?

Likely because it became a bigger deal than either thought it would, and so it went from a passable deal to one that isn't very smart, business-wise, for Disney. They could just be decent people and continue it, anyway, but businesses aren't ever "decent people" in pretty much any situation involving money.

Both sides are greedy in this instance. Disney wants more money because they have bigger dollar signs in their eyes after seeing how well it's been doing. Though they also want to co-finance, so it'd be a case of both companies putting money in and both companies getting paid, instead of just Sony putting money in and getting paid. But Sony currently very much likes being the only one putting money in and getting paid because it means they get paid much more. And they have the perk of being able to "This was the original deal, after all."
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Well, it was worthwhile at first, but does it make sense to continue to make the movies for free forever? At what point should they stop doing it? Is it in 10 years? In three more movies? Is it now?
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HeroicSpiderPig posted...

Why is Spider-Man's incorporation into other MCU films, plus a large profit in merchandising, not a fair trade for time spent developing Spider-Man films? That was Disney/Marvel's goal, no?

It probably started out that way, Spider-Man in Civil War was a huge deal and widely hyped. But now that the MCU has become this unstoppable juggernaut franchise that shits out billion dollar movies, the balance has shifted. Far From Home might have benefitted more from being in the MCU than the MCU benefits from Spider-Man and that's what Disney is banking on.
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CoolCly posted...

Well, it was worthwhile at first, but does it make sense to continue to make the movies for free forever? At what point should they stop doing it? Is it in 10 years? In three more movies? Is it now?

Its hardly 'for free'. 5% of the gross + merchandising a lot for a film they paid $0 to produce.

Sony is still taking all the risk and fronting all of the costs here. It just isn't being percieved as the risk it is because of how unstoppable the juggernaut has become.
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I don't think Disney is dumb enough to bank on a character's movie rights they don't own for the next decade when planning their future phases, especially when they just bought back the rights for two big teams that can replace the Avengers

do you honestly think they were going to have Spider-Man lead the Avengers? why would they give up any merch rights when they don't have to lift a finger to see easy returns?
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I feel like the Spider-Man MCU movies haven't even done that well at the box office. 2002's Spider-Man is still the most successful domestically at the box office, and that's without even taking inflation amount. Sure, they've benefited from being in the MCU, but that's only because the Amazing movies hurt the brand. Spider-Man's still not as big as when the original trilogy came out.
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GranzonEx posted...

I don't think Disney is dumb enough to bank on a character's movie rights they don't own for the next decade when planning their future phases, especially when they just bought back the rights for two big teams that can replace the Avengers

do you honestly think they were going to have Spider-Man lead the Avengers? why would they give up any merch rights when they don't have to lift a finger to see easy returns?

Because it's fucking Spiderman and there has literally never been a good Fantastic Four movie.
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Mac Arrowny posted...

I feel like the Spider-Man MCU movies haven't even done that well at the box office. 2002's Spider-Man is still the most successful domestically at the box office, and that's without even taking inflation amount. Sure, they've benefited from being in the MCU, but that's only because the Amazing movies hurt the brand. Spider-Man's still not as big as when the original trilogy came out.

FFH broke 1 billion and even VENOM breaks 2002 Spidey's total, though probably loses with inflation. Both Disney and Sony's viewpoints make sense here because Venom isnt even tied to the MCU.

Edit: My bad I skimmed over the "domestically" but I'm not sure that's the metric they care about nowadays
Edit2: 75% of Venom's box office money came from foreign markets what the fuck
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I feel Sony thinks that they just need the Spider-Man name for the license to print money. They don't really understand how hard it could be to make a sustainable franchise. For years now they've been trying to have their own cinematic universe because they think if they have a bunch of interconnected films with the Spider-Man name slapped on them they'll all make a billion dollars. So in their minds they have no reason not to pull out; "Hey, Venom and Spider-Verse did good right? We've worked out all the kinks now! Our tentpole Aunt May movie is going to shatter records!"

This is going to suck so bad.
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Eddv posted...

CoolCly posted...

Well, it was worthwhile at first, but does it make sense to continue to make the movies for free forever? At what point should they stop doing it? Is it in 10 years? In three more movies? Is it now?

Its hardly 'for free'. 5% of the gross + merchandising a lot for a film they paid $0 to produce.

Sony is still taking all the risk and fronting all of the costs here. It just isn't being percieved as the risk it is because of how unstoppable the juggernaut has become.

they don't get 5% gross. they get 5% first day gross which, while significant to an actor when they get that deal, is not significant to a movie studio that produces the movie.

People keep bringing up the merchandising rights - but they have that no matter what. It's mostly irrelevant to the whole discussion. Whether Disney makes a movie or Sony makes a movie or nobody makes a movie, Disney still sells spiderman toys. The best case scenario is that Marvel makes a great movie that makes kids want to buy toys more, but this isn't particularly relevant to the deal.

After all, Sony's position is that they can make great Spider-Man movies without Marvel. If that's true, Disney gets good toy sales no matter what. It doesn't change anything.
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Mac Arrowny posted...

I feel like the Spider-Man MCU movies haven't even done that well at the box office. 2002's Spider-Man is still the most successful domestically at the box office, and that's without even taking inflation amount. Sure, they've benefited from being in the MCU, but that's only because the Amazing movies hurt the brand. Spider-Man's still not as big as when the original trilogy came out.

I think this is glossing over a lot of important points, such as the fact that the 2002 Spiderman likely only did as well as it did because it was the first, at a time when it was still novel. Not counting the MCU movies, each Sony Spiderman movie since has done worse than the one before it, and that's including Spider-Verse. That signifies a definite trend in lack of interest/faith and so on. And while Spider-Verse may have helped, it was the MCU that greatly bucked that trend.

It's kind of weird to say Spiderman's not as big as when the original trilogy came out when FFH beats everything in the original trilogy worldwide, and only loses to the original in domestic.
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Inflation is deceptive to use because ticket prices have not been completely in sync with the value of the dollar
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Idk how anyone can read those leaked emails and have any confidence in Sony's management of the Spiderman franchise.
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MetalmindStats posted...

For what little it's worth, I don't think I've read a comic book in my life

how is that possible
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Waluigi1 posted...

Idk how anyone can read those leaked emails and have any confidence in Sony's management of the Spiderman franchise.

who doesn't want the Aunt May movie, with vegan Spider-Man who does hot power yoga while humble bragging on instagram with some EDM in the background

it's still mind-blowing that isnt just a joke but actual Sony plans for Spidey... then again there was also the Garfield vs Tobey movie plan...
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Waluigi1 posted...

Idk how anyone can read those leaked emails and have any confidence in Sony's management of the Spiderman franchise.

They physically hurt me to read.
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Hot take alert:

-Honestly, while it's written in horrendous, embarrassing PR speak, I don't think the suggestions in that Nick Shore email are particularly bad.

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That is definitely an extremely hot take
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HashtagSEP posted...

That is definitely an extremely hot take

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I mean the suggestions are basically:

-Have Spider-Man do something cool and say "No big deal" afterwards.
-Have an EDM soundtrack
-Have some sort of Snapchat promotional account.

None of that seems particularly stupid to me. You have to work to reduce PR people's language down to its barest essence.

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The PS4 game literally had ingame Instagram and podcasts and shit that were extremely good. Also made by Sony! Could it be related?

But yeah PR people aren't writers, the problem is when they exert too much control. But good writers can pick out the good ideas and run with them.
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The issue isn't the ideas in a vacuum. The issue is the ideas aren't organic and were basically "Can you cram these random instances of stuff we think Millennials like?"

With Sony's Spiderman movie track record, do you really want them trying to squeeze in Spiderman humble bragging about doing some Hot Yoga

Stuff like that coming from PR is never good
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Also if you replace "millennials" and "EDM" with "gen Z" and "hip-hop," you end up with the Spider-Verse soundtrack, which was also handled extremely well.
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I liked the EDM parts of Amazing Spider-Man 2 a lot, though I know that opinion's not universal.
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I feel like looking at random ideas in a brainstorming session and making judgments is incredibly dumb

It's not like into the spider verse immediately emerged from one of those as a perfect idea.

"Dude, remember spider pig from the Simpsons movie? What if we took a bunch of cool cross media spider beings and had them team up?

People love the porky pig voice!"

If that email had been released early the fans would have been rabid
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HashtagSEP posted...

The issue isn't the ideas in a vacuum. The issue is the ideas aren't organic and were basically "Can you cram these random instances of stuff we think Millennials like?"

With Sony's Spiderman movie track record, do you really want them trying to squeeze in Spiderman humble bragging about doing some Hot Yoga

Stuff like that coming from PR is never good

That's exactly my point, it doesn't matter where the ideas came from as long as they're refined and well-executed. PR should be allowed to make suggestions and writers should feel free to ignore bad ones. It's only when mandates come down that shit is messed up.
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Mac Arrowny posted...

I liked the EDM parts of Amazing Spider-Man 2 a lot, though I know that opinion's not universal.

I love that OST so much it almost made me like the movie.
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https://www.tmz.com/2019/08/22/stan-lee-daughter-sony-disney-spiderman-marvel/

Ouch

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redrocket posted...

https://www.tmz.com/2019/08/22/stan-lee-daughter-sony-disney-spiderman-marvel/

Ouch

This seems click baity.
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Well given... pretty much everything about her, that's a point for Disney!
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Do the heirs of other co-creators of Marvel characters get any input? Not sure why she thinks she should have some

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Other co-creators? There are no other co-creators! What ever do you speak of?
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Kirby?
Ditko?

Who are they?

Didn't you know Stan Lee willed Marvel into existence with nothing but horn rimmed glasses and a mustache
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Im pretty sure he even created the mythological Thor

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Hey, Disney is probably very respectful of creator wishes when they ask for unpaid input and then slap a "Special Thanks" in the credits.
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Jakyl25 posted...

Do the heirs of other co-creators of Marvel characters get any input? Not sure why she thinks she should have some

What do you mean by input? All she's doing is saying "I believe this is what my father would've wanted." Even Stan himself didn't get any "input" with the movies.
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I mean she's got a history of apparently trying to bleed her father dry, so I'm not really sure she actually knows what he would've wanted.
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HashtagSEP posted...

I mean she's got a history of apparently trying to bleed her father dry, so I'm not really sure she actually knows what he would've wanted.

No wonder she supports Sony since they're making a Morbius movie
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She needs...PLASMA!!!
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possibly hot take but i thought Morbius was cooler *because* of the plasma angle rather than blood and I was disappointed to find out he's just a more run of the mill vampire in the comics
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There were a lot of things like that in 90s cartoons where the writers had to come up with a creative solution to get around the networks' asinine censorship. It's why the X-Men fought against robots so much.
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Aw man they had a Garfield vs. Maguire movie lined up at one point? I'm in the wrong timeline

They should go back to that and add in Tom Holland to kick off the Spider-Man Cinematic Multiverse.
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Into The Cinemativerse
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I guess I should get around to seeing venom
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They've actually already talked about doing that with the Spiderverse sequel. And they actually heavily consider having Tom Holland in the first one before changing their minds.
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banananor posted...

I feel like looking at random ideas in a brainstorming session and making judgments is incredibly dumb

It's not like into the spider verse immediately emerged from one of those as a perfect idea.

"Dude, remember spider pig from the Simpsons movie? What if we took a bunch of cool cross media spider beings and had them team up?

People love the porky pig voice!"

If that email had been released early the fans would have been rabid

Endgame had Fortnite and dabbing too. They were a little cringey but nothing terrible or anything

They probably emerged from a similar brainstorming session

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