Board 8 > Godzilla Mafia Topic 7: Long Live the King

(+) Yeah! (+)

masterplum posted...

Lopen posted...

I think the idea was good it's just... poor timing. You need some credibility when you're doing that otherwise you're not looking like you're trying to draw a shot you look like desperate scum trying to draw counterclaims.

Also the hider claim was completely pointless and only served to undermine you later.

Theres no universe where I ever fake claim doc as vanilla. Ever. Zero. I am not some mafia god.

Chris is the only one who maybe I wouldnt be adamantly against doing that, and even then I would be annoyed

You lack imagination. Drawing a shot as a vanilla is a good thing. Sacrificing yourself for your team's power.

Just didn't work out that way here.

Read the scum board. They outright say a hider claim as doctor isn't a bad idea. That's what I was banking on when I fake claimed doctor. The point was to draw away from our own power and hopefully stop a sure mislynch.

Town wanted to spend 30 some hours being antagonistic instead of trying to think through the scenario. People wanted to say red was sure scum while saying the person who hammered him was sure scum also.

People don't want to think. They want the answers to be what they want them to be.

Don't even get me started on how Blade was scum day 1 and Red was scum day 2 and my role in regards to them.
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Lopen posted...

masterplum posted...

Theres no universe where I ever fake claim doc as vanilla. Ever. Zero. I am not some mafia god.

Chris is the only one who maybe I wouldnt be adamantly against doing that, and even then I would be annoyed

Claiming doctor as vanilla is not about saving your hide because you're just that valuable. That's not what Corrik was doing.

It's about buying yourself one day and hoping scum wastes their shot on you so you don't waste a lynch day. It requires a small amount of faith in your real doctor to not counterclaim but there are situations where you'd want to do it. You also want to be damn sure the lynch that is in your place is scum otherwise you're not helping anything because a mislynch is a mislynch-- which, we had a really good lynch lined up that day in red.

The problem is Corrik was a bit too buried and had already burnt up his credibility with a different fakeclaim, so it didn't have any chance of serving the intended purpose and was mostly just risky over everything else. I think in a different situation, with different timing, and with a different approach, it could have been a strong move though. I think he really needed to aim for a lower hanging fruit in red instead of trying to build a case from scratch. Play the "listen, we all thought Red was scum yesterday, let's just give Lea one more day" approach rather than FIREBOLT IS SCUM LOOK AT THESE 9000 POSTS I'M GOING TO QUOTE approach. Firebolt being the real doctor really drives home the "only do it if you're damn sure the lynch is in your place is scum" point.

I was initially hoping I could just allude to a claim and Lea would back off and go to red. When it was clear she wouldn't I slowly got pushed into claiming doctor outright to try and draw a shot and scum off of the doctor and town off of me.
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If you are pushed to claim and then throw out an obvious fakeclaim, you arent getting any heat off of yourself. Especially when your fakeclaim is doctor and you have spent the entire day trying to bait counterclaims for no reason.

The entire play was counterproductive. And your hider claim wasn't going to draw any scum shots to you, we already knew you were bullshitting when you claimed to target blade.
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red13n posted...

If you are pushed to claim and then throw out an obvious fakeclaim, you arent getting any heat off of yourself. Especially when your fakeclaim is doctor and you have spent the entire day trying to bait counterclaims for no reason.

The entire play was counterproductive. And your hider claim wasn't going to draw any scum shots to you, we already knew you were bullshitting when you claimed to target blade.

I made zero effort to bait any counterclaims. I figured no counter claim was ever coming without a guilty scan. It was extraneous. If the cop felt they wanted to claim anyways, they were gonna claim no matter what likely. Thus, I pivot to doctor which makes sense, tries to draw a shot, no sane town would Lynch uncountered, and no sane doctor would counter claim. This buys the day in which the cop simply scans me town.
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I get it

I think you should have just like, tried harder to sell town on red and maybe your play would have been a good one. Like it only ever makes any sense if you're sure the guy you're trying to lynch is scum-- and red was the guy you thought was scum coming into the day and could have feasibly bought you a day if you built the case well, which is all you needed. The point should never have been to claim doctor and use that as the only way to buy yourself a day-- the point should have been to claim doctor, get a guy you thought was scum lynched mostly on the strength of the argument, not "don't lynch me I'm doctor," and then draw a shot.

Like trying to say fire bolt is scum, when you know you're not the real doctor and half of your case was him turning on you in an opportunistic way (which would make perfect sense for the real doctor to do, go figure!), shows you lost sight of what your purpose was and were just scrambling to not die by the time you went too deep into your gambit.

But I do think the play had some potential at least.
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Lopen posted...

I get it

I think you should have just like, tried harder to sell town on red and maybe your play would have been a good one. Like it only ever makes any sense if you're sure the guy you're trying to lynch is scum-- and red was the guy you thought was scum coming into the day and could have feasibly bought you a day if you built the case well, which is all you needed. The point should never have been to claim doctor and use that as the only way to buy yourself a day-- the point should have been to claim doctor, get a guy you thought was scum lynched mostly on the strength of the argument, not "don't lynch me I'm doctor," and then draw a shot.

Like trying to say fire bolt is scum, when you know you're not the real doctor and half of your case was him turning on you in an opportunistic way (which would make perfect sense for the real doctor to do, go figure!), shows you lost sight of what your purpose was and were just scrambling to not die by the time you went too deep into your gambit.

But I do think the play had some potential at least.

It was hard to do the re-read and not think fire_bolt was scum lol. He looked awful. Haha.

I did say when I died to not assume they were scum but to start with red and fire_bolt specifically.
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Corrik7 posted...

It was hard to do the re-read and not think fire_bolt was scum lol. He looked awful. Haha.

he looked like the fucking doctor on the day you got lynched.
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I thought your case on fire_bolt was good but you need to realize you're arguing from a point of negative credibility at that point, so you need to have some humility and realize you can't sell the town on anything that they're not already believing. Starting on firebolt fresh was just never going to work.

Red was an attainable lynch because he had majority lynch yesterday and had done nothing to make himself look better.

Also it was just your opinion rather than the opinions of the many which red had-- which, again, speaks to the inherent selfishness which is bad play. Like you're basically saying "well I had this read when I reread the game and it has to be right" when no one else in the game was really having that read. You need to accept maybe you're wrong there and even if bolt is just vanilla town you're doing more damage by not just falling on the sword if you lynch him.
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I mean, did it never cross your mind that the real doctor would go after you?

because he did a complete 180 when you floated doc.

Yet you were still going hard on him.

But you were being too self-absorbed to even think on this in the slightest because you were just full anti-town.
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btw one anoher thing. Town Poisoner that gives notification should not be the case when the board standard is for poisoner to not give notification.

It basically made panth a confirmable role(with a confirmable in mayor already in place).

That was probably my biggest balance issue with the setup. There was no way anyone should think panth is scum.
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Well 1. I didnt want Panth to get screwed over by having to claim
2. I am pretty sure I have seen poisoned players being notified before.
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red13n posted...

Corrik7 posted...

It was hard to do the re-read and not think fire_bolt was scum lol. He looked awful. Haha.

he looked like the fucking doctor on the day you got lynched.

That's why scum didn't kill him that night. GTFO here with that after the fact bullshit. If he was clear doctor, you would have shot him.
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Lopen posted...

I thought your case on fire_bolt was good but you need to realize you're arguing from a point of negative credibility at that point, so you need to have some humility and realize you can't sell the town on anything that they're not already believing. Starting on firebolt fresh was just never going to work.

Red was an attainable lynch because he had majority lynch yesterday and had done nothing to make himself look better.

Also it was just your opinion rather than the opinions of the many which red had-- which, again, speaks to the inherent selfishness which is bad play. Like you're basically saying "well I had this read when I reread the game and it has to be right" when no one else in the game was really having that read. You need to accept maybe you're wrong there and even if bolt is just vanilla town you're doing more damage by not just falling on the sword if you lynch him.

Yeah, I went back hoping to build it on red. But, fire was too hard to ignore. *Shrug*. I actually went back to look at red, Ulti, then fire. It became the fire show once I saw what I saw.
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It's not just about what you see

It's about what the players at large see. You go with red because others were seeing the case on red because you're in a bad spot and if your lynch is wrong you're causing a ton of damage with a fake doctor claim-- basically adding one more wrong lynch to the pile.

That's why you're not a team player. Not stupid ass claims. That. Gotta have the glory of the lynching the scum you catch rather than reading the arguments of others and going with them in the name of advancing the day.
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red13n posted...

btw one anoher thing. Town Poisoner that gives notification should not be the case when the board standard is for poisoner to not give notification.

It basically made panth a confirmable role(with a confirmable in mayor already in place).

That was probably my biggest balance issue with the setup. There was no way anyone should think panth is scum.

I would like to just put on record that when I was helping balance this setup, I had exactly zero indication that poisoner notified

I also had zero indication that your powers targeted instead of being self-upgrade like they usually are <_<

Like basically the thing to realize is that no matter how much "evidence" you find, no matter how much gut your read has, if you've got like 5 or 6 players thinking one guy is scum, with some of them making decently reasonable arguments, they're probably more likely to be scum than the dude you had a scum lean on that you just came across in a reread.

Especially if you were reading that one as possible scum too. Especially if someone previously thought to be town would likely be doubting you inherently because you're claiming their role.

Like you did it in day 1 too. Lots of arguments for hb, but you're like "nah, Blade, let's start a different train cause all these arguments can't possibly be as good as my rng town read on hb and Blade meowing and not caring"

It's less embarrassing with Blade cause you were (half-- hb was scum) right but like, yeah. That's where the team game comes in, willingness to humor arguments not put forth by yourself-- stupid ass fakeclaims to draw shots not as much.

Like you'll note I actually admitted I didn't even really buy the lynch on red at first in day 2-- this is 100% true by the way and I was just pushing for the lynch pressure because other people, a few of which I were confident were town, were suspicious of him. It was only after his reaction to pressure that I became convinced he was scum-- but yeah like, if I'm playing like you we probably don't even catch Red. I'm just bashing popcorn fairy into the wall all day and accomplishing nothing.
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Lopen posted...

Like basically the thing to realize is that no matter how much "evidence" you find, no matter how much gut your read has, if you've got like 5 or 6 players thinking one guy is scum, with some of them making decently reasonable arguments, they're probably more likely to be scum than the dude you had a scum lean on that you just came across in a reread.

this is why its better to have scumteams willing to just dig hard into town. Because it makes this 100% not true.

Dig into town and then mob mentality will roll the game over.
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Lopen posted...

It's not just about what you see

It's about what the players at large see. You go with red because others were seeing the case on red because you're in a bad spot and if your lynch is wrong you're causing a ton of damage with a fake doctor claim-- basically adding one more wrong lynch to the pile.

That's why you're not a team player. Not stupid ass claims. That. Gotta have the glory of the lynching the scum you catch rather than reading the arguments of others and going with them in the name of advancing the day.

Didn't see the argument for red much day 1. Tbqh. I didn't think red myself was scum really until he was -1 day 2.

If I had built a case using day 1 stuff on red, I woulda got manhandled and picked apart with a weak case.
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Thing about scumteams digging in though is they have to fake it. It becomes more risky. Like yes you can create an argument on anyone to some extent, but even if it's good say they claim then what. Can you reliably flow from town member to town member to pressure without the arguments you're making seem a bit contrived? Can you avoid your scumbuddies that probably have as good or better cases on them?

Like honestly I think if scumteams did that games would be easier to win. Not just because the scum lynch party would slip in fabricating a suspicion, but also because just generating pressure on people who are suspicious and seeing how they react (and how the people pressuring them react) is how the game is played well. You might get some power claims out there but you're also going to confirm a lot of town to people.
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Corrik7 posted...

If I had built a case using day 1 stuff on red, I woulda got manhandled and picked apart with a weak case.

Build it off day 2 and day 3 then. There was stuff there. I was extremely disappointed when no one doubled back to Red's defense on why he voted Blade-- it was not remotely consistent with how he acted in day 1. I'm the only person who ever mentioned it and I was practically yelling "dammit I was not just posturing there and surprised when that wild card Corrik hammered-- I thought he was scum!"
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It was hard to say things that weren't "He doesnt want to play and I wanted our roleblocker to live".
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Lopen posted...

Thing about scumteams digging in though is they have to fake it. It becomes more risky. Like yes you can create an argument on anyone to some extent, but even if it's good say they claim then what. Can you reliably flow from town member to town member to pressure without the arguments you're making seem a bit contrived? Can you avoid your scumbuddies that probably have as good or better cases on them?

You gain the benefit of more numbers. That strong voice day 1 becomes an even stronger voice day 2.
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Lopen posted...

Thing about scumteams digging in though is they have to fake it. It becomes more risky. Like yes you can create an argument on anyone to some extent, but even if it's good say they claim then what. Can you reliably flow from town member to town member to pressure without the arguments you're making seem a bit contrived? Can you avoid your scumbuddies that probably have as good or better cases on them?

Like honestly I think if scumteams did that games would be easier to win. Not just because the scum lynch party would slip in fabricating a suspicion, but also because just generating pressure on people who are suspicious and seeing how they react (and how the people pressuring them react) is how the game is played well. You might get some power claims out there but you're also going to confirm a lot of town to people.

I feel I excel as scum so well cuz I can make arguments like I did on firebolt even when they are town. And they seem natural.

That said, next game I am going to try and play more team oriented and with less hyper activeness to try and see if it works out better.
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red13n posted...

You gain the benefit of more numbers. That strong voice day 1 becomes an even stronger voice day 2.

Not necessarily unless you bus a scum. In the case of a mislynch arguments are now under heavy scrutiny and if anyone in your roving band of marauders didn't do it quite right they could be picked apart by town. Heck even if you got the right lynch, it's going to be picked apart

I still think passive play is the best way to play scum, more often than not, because the less useful information that's out there the better and even if you're witchhunting town you're going to create useful information.
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Sorry i didnt have time to play getting close yo my wedding sobeen busy
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Oh hey we won. Good job Lea/MZero.

For all the shit people have given/are giving Corrik, he's not really guilty of anything other than playing poorly, the rants about how he should be banned or ignored or whatever Plum was on about are not deserved.

For the record Corrik, not sure how many others would have bought it but if you had claimed vanilla I at least would have believed you. You looked like town to me except that your doctor claim and the way you explained your thought process didn't add up at all and made it look like you were just scrambling to invent a story that would keep you alive. Which...you were, but it made you look like scum doing it instead of town.

I was pretty awful and absent early on in this game but I think I started to get it together a tad towards the end. Like I said at some point, I was disengaging to keep myself from getting as stressed out as I usually do. End result, this is the most fun I had overall playing mafia since I returned last year, but it came at the cost of being a pretty pathetic display for much of the game. Hopefully I can adjust in the future to find a balance where I'm active enough to not be a waste of space, but still not invested to the point I get pissed off at myself for every mistake.
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