Board 8 > All-Purpose Wrestling Topic 487: There Goes Bracket

(+) Yeah! (+)

I don't know but I want to say it's the same one who wrestled in front of a pretty much evenly split crowd at WK12.
---

ExThaNemesis posted...

NBIceman posted...

And I don't know that I agree he's the most over guy in the company. I don't know that NJPW *has* a "most-over" guy anymore. There's close to ten wrestlers who can get cheers over any of their opponents on any given night. Depends very much on the city and the situation.

which one of them has the whole arena chanting their name along w their entrance theme every single time no matter what city

I agree Suzuki should headline everything
---

Steiner posted...

I agree Suzuki should headline everything

unironically agree but you guys are a-holes
---

I think Extha was the most correct person on page 6.
---

ExThaNemesis posted...

unironically agree but you guys are a-holes

unironically agree

---

NBIceman posted...

ExThaNemesis posted...

NBIceman posted...

I have an idea for an article kicking around in my head that Naito is just a more serious Orange Cassidy which is why a seemingly increasing number of fans are getting tired of him and can no longer relate to him.

you should absolutely not write such a stupid article that makes no sense

Both of them have a gimmick that they don't care about anything, up to and including wrestling. Naito even continually tells us to not care alongside him. So why should we?

Wrestling fans *want* to care about things. How can we relate to wrestlers who don't also care?

I would say this is a severe misinterpretation of Naito
---

As an extremely casual viewer I always thought Naito's deal was just being chill as hell not actual apathy
---

PrivateBiscuit1 posted...

I still think Harper should have just gone into John Oliver's show and just discuss the situation he's in and his independent contractor status. That would get him relieved from his contract ASAP.

I can see why he doesn't because he has a family and he probably doesn't want to blackball himself from WWE forever, especially when it might not suck so much when Vince is gone, but man.

I feel like had he done this, theyd both fire him and legally try to lock him into a no-compete clause for the remainder of his deal due to a breach of contract regarding WWE needing to approve of media appearances
---

Also I forget, how much time did they add to his contract that was originally set to expire in November?
---

Jakyl25 posted...

NBIceman posted...

ExThaNemesis posted...

NBIceman posted...

I have an idea for an article kicking around in my head that Naito is just a more serious Orange Cassidy which is why a seemingly increasing number of fans are getting tired of him and can no longer relate to him.

you should absolutely not write such a stupid article that makes no sense

Both of them have a gimmick that they don't care about anything, up to and including wrestling. Naito even continually tells us to not care alongside him. So why should we?

Wrestling fans *want* to care about things. How can we relate to wrestlers who don't also care?

I would say this is a severe misinterpretation of Naito

Give me your interpretation then. He's been the same character for years now.

They were doing something interesting with him at WK12 where they seemed to imply that he really did care, that the Stardust Genius was the real Naito all along, that he never wanted to be the bad guy and that the whole LIJ persona was born out of insecurity, but they haven't followed up on that. So my conclusion can only be that what we see really is what we get.
---

NBIceman posted...

They were doing something interesting with him at WK12 where they seemed to imply that he really did care, that the Stardust Genius was the real Naito all along, that he never wanted to be the bad guy and that the whole LIJ persona was born out of insecurity, but they haven't followed up on that. So my conclusion can only be that what we see really is what we get.

Bro u missed the part of the story where he lost BECAUSE he reverted back to being the Stardust Genius and it follows that he needed to remain truly Tranquilo and stick to what brought him to the dance if he was ever to truly get the win on Okada.

Only we've never gotten the fucking rematch so we'll never know.
---

Lopen posted...

As an extremely casual viewer I always thought Naito's deal was just being chill as hell not actual apathy

When he was doing the whole "abuse and throw around the IC belt" gimmick I feel like the implication was actual targeted apathy.
---

Lopen posted...

As an extremely casual viewer I always thought Naito's deal was just being chill as hell not actual apathy

I mean its a lot more nuanced than that, but basically yes.

He doesnt care about things like the IC Title and the fans because when he became tranqilo he realized that trying to please fans was holding him back, and the IC Title was once used as an excuse to put his IWGP WK match on the undercard.

He cares very very much about the IWGP Title and his friends in LIJ. Its pretty genius to make Ibushi his rival, because Ibushi is literally everything he is not as a character, but they are both equally as skilled and devoted to their mission
---

ExThaNemesis posted...

NBIceman posted...

They were doing something interesting with him at WK12 where they seemed to imply that he really did care, that the Stardust Genius was the real Naito all along, that he never wanted to be the bad guy and that the whole LIJ persona was born out of insecurity, but they haven't followed up on that. So my conclusion can only be that what we see really is what we get.

Bro u missed the part of the story where he lost BECAUSE he reverted back to being the Stardust Genius and it follows that he needed to remain truly Tranquilo and stick to what brought him to the dance if he was ever to truly get the win on Okada.

Only we've never gotten the fucking rematch so we'll never know.

No. I thought that was the story too. But he just lost the B Block finals by being truly Tranquilo so that clearly wasn't the story.
---

NBIceman posted...

No. I thought that was the story too. But he just lost the B Block finals by being truly Tranquilo so that clearly wasn't the story.

and now you've finally caught up to why we're all fuckin livid
---

Yes. And the reason why you're all livid is the same reason that some of us care so little.
---

Jakyl25 posted...

He doesnt care about things like the IC Title and the fans because when he became tranqilo he realized that trying to please fans was holding him back, and the IC Title was once used as an excuse to put his IWGP WK match on the undercard.

Well my take was that he actually hates the IC title a whole lot and also the fans.
---

You can definitely take that angle, that tranquilo is a front.

I like the twist that since he hates the IC Title SO MUCH, he paradoxically has to continuously chase it to keep it out of circulation
---

NBIceman posted...

When he was doing the whole "abuse and throw around the IC belt" gimmick I feel like the implication was actual targeted apathy.

Targeted apathy is kinda the opposite of actual apathy though.
---

If I'm on an island here, so be it - it's happened before and will happen again - but I wasn't expecting "some people are starting to care less about a guy who says he doesn't care, acts like he doesn't care, and who in four years has only shown very brief flashes of caring more than he lets on" to be a hot take.
---

I feel like it has to do with how I was introduced to the character - as a "so Imagine roman reigns came back with a character that was over the top chill and totally not concerned any longer with winning in a bid to win the fans over by no longer trying to win the fans over"
---

Well the thing is actual not caring comes in the form of character development, mostly. Does Naito change how he acts when he loses/wins at all? If he does, even if his overall gimmick presents the same, it's hard to say he really doesn't care.

Again I'm an extremely casual viewer so I really just know the characters as they show in matches and nothing in the actual overarching stuff beyond what I gather from you guys and voltch, so I don't actually know what the answer is there. I do get the feeling when he's wrestling matches in a vacuum he is attempting to win the match and the tranquillo stuff is more of a mindgame than anything but yeah.

Like as a wrestling fan when I think apathy in a bad way for storytelling I'm more thinking someone like Roman Reigns or John Cena who when they lose a big match are often just like "shucks I'll win next time" or a guy like Triple H who treats his opponent as beneath him more than actually putting them over as a threat-- not someone whose character is to show how cool and above it all in the ring they are necessarily.
---

Lopen posted...

Well the thing is actual not caring comes in the form of character development, mostly. Does Naito change how he acts when he loses/wins at all? If he does, even if his overall gimmick presents the same, it's hard to say he really doesn't care.

He doesn't really, no.
---

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LUuaqKuMmrY" data-time="

---

Give me Drew mac over KO for the KotR finals
---

Upon further reflection, I think Iceman is at serious risk of becoming right.

If Naito doesn't do SOMETHING soon hes at serious risk of going the Yano Road where he becomes the simplified less compelling version of himself in a stable manner.

Which is why Extha is right to be nervous. If not now, when? If never, why?
---

Naito had his shot in 2012.
---

Eddv posted...

I think Iceman is at serious risk of becoming right.

anything but that!!

---

scarletspeed7 posted...

Naito had his shot in 2012.

Yeah and he knocked everything out of the park from character work to in-ring quality

and they shelved him for a guy who SPLIT and to further Gedo's Okada fetish
---

Hey Jay White has benefited too.
---

God forbid a wrestling booker has a fetish for someone who sells out every title defense he ever has and has led the company to record-breaking financial years.

Meanwhile Naito is still, as you are always eager to remind us, extraordinarily popular and no matter how "bad" his booking is, ALSO sells out title defenses of the secondary title and moves a ton of merch.

You may not like it from a story perspective or just because you love Naito so much, but Okada as the ace and Naito as the new Nakamura is the best business setup they can have right now.
---

I think that it's a huge obvious money match that everyone (besides Iceman) wants and I think increasing the distance between their undercard Tokyo Dome face off and the inevitable rematch just makes that match even bigger when it does happen

I do think the only risk to that is Naito going stale in the meantime but a superfan like Extha shouldn't worry about that.
---

I actually should clarify because Ed's post there makes me realize I'm not coming across quite right.

I think I tend to like Okada vs Naito matches more than the average, actually. I'm one of very few people that I saw go 5 stars on their WK12 match and I remember being above the mean on their 2016 matches as well. And if I was booking New Japan I would do Naito over Okada at WK14. It's just that I would also have him lose the title again no later than mid-year, and I think that would piss his fanbase off too.

Furthermore, my point was never that Naito is losing a significant amount of popularity. Far from it. In fact, I think he's almost immune, which is why I say that it's not a big deal if he never does win the big one. He'll make the company plenty of money as the 1B.

My point from the beginning is simply that I'm seeing an increasing number of people get flat out tired of the guy in the wake of this weekend, and I threw out what seemed to me like a perfectly plausible explanation as to why that might be. Is it a huge number? No. But I think a lot of Naito's fans sometimes wonder why others don't see what they do and I was merely trying to speak to that.
---

Jakyl25 posted...

PrivateBiscuit1 posted...

I still think Harper should have just gone into John Oliver's show and just discuss the situation he's in and his independent contractor status. That would get him relieved from his contract ASAP.

I can see why he doesn't because he has a family and he probably doesn't want to blackball himself from WWE forever, especially when it might not suck so much when Vince is gone, but man.

I feel like had he done this, theyd both fire him and legally try to lock him into a no-compete clause for the remainder of his deal due to a breach of contract regarding WWE needing to approve of media appearances

That's entirely possible.

Really depends on a lot of factors. I feel like that's something he'd be able to sue over. Not sure for what, exactly (not too brushed up that sort of law!), but I feel like if Harper took it to court, there's a chance that a ruling on independent contractor status may be not go in their favor. Because as it stands, that hasn't been challenged yet. And depending on how much John Oliver were to press the issue, I'm sure that Harper could crowd fund enough to compete with WWE's legal juggernauts.

But, chances are you're right and he's better off not even opening up that Pandora's Box to begin with!
---

And Roman Reigns signed a new contract. There goes our chance at the 2/3rds Shield Reunion in AEW.
---

Santana Garrett signs with WWE.

How AEW didn't grab her is shocking to me.
---

Reigns made Murphy look great, I'm kinda impressed.

EDIT: Credibility-wise, to be clear.
---

So if Elias is 24/7 champ and referee does that mean you are allowed to attack him as long as it is challenging for the title and you pin him right away?

Or has Elias just found the ultimate loophole for having the title. Just never take off the ref shirt.
---

Finally got to watch Takeover Toronto and SummerSlam. Takeover was great, SS was "fine". WWE was real stingy with title changes this weekend

also eddv I just re-read that and I'm gonna need you to never compare Naito to Roman ever again ty
---

Maniac64 posted...

So if Elias is 24/7 champ and referee does that mean you are allowed to attack him as long as it is challenging for the title and you pin him right away?

Or has Elias just found the ultimate loophole for having the title. Just never take off the ref shirt.

Yeah but is he a PREGNANT LADY?
---

How did they have Maria drop the title?
---

Maniac64 posted...

How did they have Maria drop the title?

Mike gave her a hug while she was laying down at a doctor office

The doctor/ nurse was lady ref
---

Reigns is better than Naito. No one ever screams RO-MAN in my ear all night at WWE events
---

RPGlord95 posted...

Reigns is better than Naito. No one ever screams RO-MAN in my ear all night at WWE events

What about if he got over?
---

Let's not make bizarre and impossible hypotheticals.
---

- Roman gets over
- Naito beats Okada at a Wrestle Kingdom

Which happens first?
---

Depends how long the Naito/Okada match goes.
---

naitoooooooooooooo

---

Believe it or not, Roman vs. Buddy Murphy of all things got Roman pretty decently over last night!

Probably because it was actually a good match and not just Roman hitting 5 Superman Punches then winning
---