Poll of the Day > Which item is better? 10% chance to double cast or 10% cooldown reduction?

(+) Yeah! (+)

Topic
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Cooldown reduction

Thats gonna benefit you almost every battle
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Cooldown will always affect you, there's only a 10% chance the other one will.

It depends if you have any other cooldown reduction and if you'll hit a limit on it as well.

In some games there is a limit now on cooldown reduction, like Titan quest etc (80% is cap). Meanwhile double cast is pretty much always a 10% boost in over all damage....which is pretty awesome, especially if you get alot of it.

It also depends greatly on your cast speed, since the faster/more you can cast, the more likely you'll get that 10% fairly often. If your casting 10 times a second, then usually that means an 11th cast per second based on your 10% chance (on average).

So both are good together, but....double cast becomes better and better the more cooldown reduction/cast speed bonuses you have.

double cast is also usually "Free" meaning you get the second cast for the same cost in mana or whatever your paying. Meanwhile cooldown reduction lets you just use the ability/spell more often...which is good, but also means greater cost.

In PoE this can be a big deal, although usually leach mana per hit or leach %damage mana etc can mitigate it pretty easy.

Depending on animations etc, or if there is a seperate part to the casting (outside of the base cooldown), you might not see a direct reduction in over all cast speed eventually (or at least need significantly more cooldown reduction to see a big difference.

If a skill/spell has say a 1 second cooldown and a .5 second animation, then it would normally take 1.5 seconds between casts. Getting 50% cooldown reduction would drop that 33%, to 1 second total (50% double cast though would increase damage by a full 50%). Additional increases in cooldown reduction would increase over all cast speed by less and less, and by the time you reach the cap (if there is one), of say 80% (used in titan quest), you would still be casting every .7 seconds (about 50% of the base speed).

So yeah, both can be good, but it depends on the mechanics of the game alot.
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If the double cast was pseudo random then maybe but the CDR is just better in every way.
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Buy one get one free

Cooldown.

Both of them will, on average, get you the equivalent of 11 casts in the same time someone else would take to cast 10. However, double cast has more situations where it would be less useful overall (like if you need to do something with your next action that isn't a repeat cast - like healing).
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wolfy42 posted...

It depends if you have any other cooldown reduction and if you'll hit a limit on it as well.

In some games there is a limit now on cooldown reduction, like Titan quest etc (80% is cap). Meanwhile double cast is pretty much always a 10% boost in over all damage....which is pretty awesome, especially if you get alot of it.

It also depends greatly on your cast speed, since the faster/more you can cast, the more likely you'll get that 10% fairly often. If your casting 10 times a second, then usually that means an 11th cast per second based on your 10% chance (on average).

So both are good together, but....double cast becomes better and better the more cooldown reduction/cast speed bonuses you have.

double cast is also usually "Free" meaning you get the second cast for the same cost in mana or whatever your paying. Meanwhile cooldown reduction lets you just use the ability/spell more often...which is good, but also means greater cost.

In PoE this can be a big deal, although usually leach mana per hit or leach %damage mana etc can mitigate it pretty easy.

Depending on animations etc, or if there is a seperate part to the casting (outside of the base cooldown), you might not see a direct reduction in over all cast speed eventually (or at least need significantly more cooldown reduction to see a big difference.

If a skill/spell has say a 1 second cooldown and a .5 second animation, then it would normally take 1.5 seconds between casts. Getting 50% cooldown reduction would drop that 33%, to 1 second total (50% double cast though would increase damage by a full 50%). Additional increases in cooldown reduction would increase over all cast speed by less and less, and by the time you reach the cap (if there is one), of say 80% (used in titan quest), you would still be casting every .7 seconds (about 50% of the base speed).

So yeah, both can be good, but it depends on the mechanics of the game alot.

It's funny that you mention Titan's Quest 'cuz the game I'm playing is Grim Dawn - which runs on the Titan Quest engine
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Cooldown if your spells have a long recharge.

Double cast if not.
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They do the same exact thing if the 10% on the double cast is entropy based.
Both result in 10% more effective DPS, although games with additive and multiplicative bonuses put a wrench in this (i.e. faster recharge and recharge speed could mean two different things).
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Cdr.

Essentially a double cast every 9 casts.
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Cooldown redux. I like bonuses to be reliable.
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If you're casting on cooldown, CDR benefits you as soon as you cast the spell a second time, whereas doublecast won't benefit you at all until the RNG decides to like you (which can be expected to be roughly once every 10 casts). Doublecast's benefit will be greater when it does kick in, but you're at the mercy of RNG. They'll even out long-term.

For an ARPG, I'd probably say CDR, since it increases the likelihood that the skill will be up when you make it to a new pack. That's going to depend, however, on how long the cooldown is. If the cooldown's short enough that it's up by the time you hit the new pack anyway, then CDR becomes unnecessary and you'd be better off with doublecast.

reduction is more consistent
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JOExHIGASHI posted...

reduction is more consistent

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10% for me might as well be zero. I'm choosing the ability that will always be there for me. Reduction.
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Y'all aren't taking into account mana costs. CDR might be useful if the spells are cheap but a free doublecast could come in handy with mana issues.
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I think it depends on the spell. Some spells have a way longer cooldown than others. Of thats the case, CDR might be better. For something that only takes a second, double cast wouldnt probably be better since you might hit them twice. And probably wouldnt even notice the cooldown. Also, if its a more strategic game that involves dodging and blocking a lot more than normal games, double cast might benefit you more. You cooldown might go down fast enough when dodging and blocking. So, depends on the game, spell cost, spell cooldown, etc...
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skullbone posted...

Y'all aren't taking into account mana costs.

Of course not, I'm a Necromancer.

Red_Frog posted...

skullbone posted...

Y'all aren't taking into account mana costs.

Of course not, I'm a Necromancer.

Sorry blood costs or bone costs or whatever you FREAKS use
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cdr is more generally useful, but the burst from a double cast can be really situationally nice.
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I figured it was Titan quest or Grim dawn since CDR is big in both games.

Titan quest has a ability under nature that you can use...I believe initially every 30 seconds, that reduces the cooldown of all your other skills by 60 seconds or so at max. This allows you to pretty much keep many buffs up constantly etc.

But....double cast doesn't do anything for buffs at all.

So in the end you really want both (especially if you don't have regrowth or whatever the nature skill was).

Double cast is more offensive usually....as most of your actual attack spells have very low, if any, cooldown, and you have animation time etc that factors in making it less effective (double cast doesn't have 2 animations).

CDR is great for many buffs/regen abilities etc, since it lets you keep em up constantly, and also for a few AoE abilities etc with longer cooldowns. Double cast is still GREAT for the AoE abilities especially since you avoid the extra cost to cast it again.

By the time you get far in either game you can get alot of both, although CDR is far easier to get.
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cooldown reduction only helps if you use that ability constantly. you only get the full effect if you use it 100% of the time. and if you don't actually use it 10% more often, you get zero effect.

double cast, all of your uses are 10% more effective on average, regardless of how often you use it, plus the benefit of burst dps. depending on the situation, having 2x burst dps can even make a nearly impossible fight possible, (if the enemy has a lot of regen for example).
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i'd say it boils down to your luck almost. if you get the double cast proc a lot then it'd be better overall, but if it's kinda rare for you the consistency of the cooldown reduction is better.

not always applicable, but i'd almost always prefer the double cast in a pvp situation, while i'd be kind of leaning toward cooldown reduction for pve, though the comparison would be closer there.
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skullbone posted...

Y'all aren't taking into account mana costs. CDR might be useful if the spells are cheap but a free doublecast could come in handy with mana issues.

Sure, if you're lucky enough to actually get it. Then lucky enough to get it with something useful. Then lucky enough to get it when you actually need it. No thanks. I'll carry a few mana potions and take that reliable CDR.


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it also matters what type of enemies your facing

double cast might be overkill
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Cool down since you get it every time while the other one will hit 1 out of 10 times. The cool down is good in every battle while the other one would hit mostly in boss battles.
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Bugmeat posted...

skullbone posted...

Y'all aren't taking into account mana costs. CDR might be useful if the spells are cheap but a free doublecast could come in handy with mana issues.

Sure, if you're lucky enough to actually get it. Then lucky enough to get it with something useful. Then lucky enough to get it when you actually need it. No thanks. I'll carry a few mana potions and take that reliable CDR.

Like someone else said, its only really needed if youre constantly using that one spell. If you have multiple spells youre going through, then it might be cooled down already by the time you make it back. Or if youre playing a game where youre dodging a lot and not constantly using the spell, CDR would be basically useless, as well. Double cast would be better in those situations. That whybit really depends.
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Sahuagin posted...

cooldown reduction only helps if you use that ability constantly. you only get the full effect if you use it 100% of the time. and if you don't actually use it 10% more often, you get zero effect.

double cast, all of your uses are 10% more effective on average, regardless of how often you use it, plus the benefit of burst dps. depending on the situation, having 2x burst dps can even make a nearly impossible fight possible, (if the enemy has a lot of regen for example).

If the enemy has a regen than wouldn't casting faster be the better option?

Someone run the numbers!
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EvilMegas posted...

Sahuagin posted...

cooldown reduction only helps if you use that ability constantly. you only get the full effect if you use it 100% of the time. and if you don't actually use it 10% more often, you get zero effect.

double cast, all of your uses are 10% more effective on average, regardless of how often you use it, plus the benefit of burst dps. depending on the situation, having 2x burst dps can even make a nearly impossible fight possible, (if the enemy has a lot of regen for example).

If the enemy has a regen than wouldn't casting faster be the better option?

Someone run the numbers!

Depends. How much regen for the enemy, how often, base cooldown time, and damage output from the caster.
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EvilMegas posted...

If the enemy has a regen than wouldn't casting faster be the better option?

Someone run the numbers!

10% cooldown reduction is something like 10% more DPS. (seems to actually be 11.111....%, inverse of 90%.)

double cast is 100% more DPS, in the very short term. (and 10% more DPS in the long term.)

also, to gain the DPS from cooldown reduction also costs 10% more mana. double cast costs no additional mana (or maybe it does?) you could also say that CDR costs 10% more attention from the player; double cast costs no additional attention.

for all of this I am assuming that this applies to a single ability. if we're talking about FireBlast on WoW mage, for example, I'm pretty sure I would want double cast over 10% CDR. really, it would end up being that double cast is for PvP where you want burst DPS, but CDR is for PvE (esp. long bosses) where you want sustained DPS.
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There's a miscalculation almost every one is making...

10% cooldown does NOT have 100% uptime, because it doesn't cooldown when your spell is off cooldown, such as when you have many a spells in your rotation
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Lokarin posted...

There's a miscalculation almost every one is making...

10% cooldown does NOT have 100% uptime, because it doesn't cooldown when your spell is off cooldown, such as when you have many a spells in your rotation

I mention soething about. Saying that it's not always worth it if you're not constantly using it. But for any reason. Because you're dodging, or rotating spells, or whatever... I even mentioned multiple spells...

https://gamefaqs.gamespot.com/boards/3-poll-of-the-day/77791977/923354757
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I would still say CDR is more useful, in general. Double casting buffs or debuffs is generally useless since few games let those stack, especially self-buffs. A random double cast on your big flashy spell might be useful at random, or when you're boss farming but CDR on your workhorse skills is always going to increase your dps over time since you can consistently rake through your entire skill rotation faster.
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Sahuagin posted...

double cast, all of your uses are 10% more effective on average,

No, 10% of your uses are 100% more effective, with 90% being unaffected. Long-term, you'll see a 10% increase in damage, but that damage does not get applied to all of your uses. On a short-term basis, you either get lucky and get a lot, or you don't and you get nothing.

Lokarin posted...

There's a miscalculation almost every one is making...

10% cooldown does NOT have 100% uptime, because it doesn't cooldown when your spell is off cooldown, such as when you have many a spells in your rotation

Yes, that's assuming the spell is cast on cooldown. If it's not, particularly if you have lots of spells to get through, CDR loses value. Particularly, if you're looking at DoT's, debuffs, buffs, or other duration-based abilities that don't stack, there's a CDR breakpoint after which any extra is unnecessary because you can have 100% uptime (though, generally, that's going to be more than 10%). For those skills, though, doublecast is totally useless, so this comparison doesn't really apply.

It is also worth noting that CDR plays a much greater role in any utility skill than doublecast does. Reducing the cooldown on a movement skill, for example, makes traversing the map that much faster, contributing more to clear speed than the same boost just to damage would. Similarly, if you need a defensive skill to take on larger packs, CDR means less waiting around for that. It's also just nice from a QoL standpoint to have abilities available more often and not feel like you're waiting, though that's not something that's easily quantifiable and therefore never really shows up in min/max theorycrafting discussions.

_AdjI_ posted...

Sahuagin posted...

double cast, all of your uses are 10% more effective on average,

No, 10% of your uses are 100% more effective, with 90% being unaffected. Long-term, you'll see a 10% increase in damage, but that damage does not get applied to all of your uses. On a short-term basis, you either get lucky and get a lot, or you don't and you get nothing.

yeah, so on average, like I said. each use contributes to the average, which long term will average out to +10%. the average of all of your uses, long term, is +10%. averaged out, all of your uses will give you a +10% damage increase over the long term.

like, what exactly are you suggesting that I should have said? "double cast, only the uses that proc are 10% more effective on average"? now that's wrong. what I said was correct. why do I even talk to you.
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Just because something has a 10% chance doesnt mean it's going to activate 10% of the battle.
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Assuming it's a spammy dps skill then doublecast is better. Over a long period of time the dps of both will about equal out but doublecast gives you a chance to burst for pvp purposes.
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10% double cast by far.

to illustrate, If the cool down on an ability was 60 seconds, a 10% reduction in cooldown would make it a 54 second one. A 10% chance to double cast this would be much better.
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