Board 8 > the DEFINITIVE goku vs superman topic

(+) Yeah! (+)

post your arguments here for why GOKU or SUPERMAN would win in an all out match to the death

the rules:
1. no one can interfere in the fight
2. Goku believes that Superman is irredeemably evil, Superman believes that Goku is a serious threat and must be put down
3. at the end of the topic I alone will decide who wins based on WHICH FANS ARE MORE PASSIONATE
4. I will abstain from making any arguments so I cannot sway the outcome

5. once the topic is concluded, my decided winner will be the DEFINITIVE champion that the entire internet must agree on

you may begin
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Ive read like 2 Superman comics and when he was bench pressing the entire mass of planet Earth in one like it was nothing it was a far more impressive feat than anything DB has ever had. Superman got this

i heard that DBS has made Goku like really really strong. Can someone tell me some of his feats.
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DB has no worthwhile feats and I say this as a DB fan.

DBS is fanfiction it doesn't count
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Superman can whistle universes into and out of existence (Final Crisis: Legion of Three Worlds).

Superman is the center of all fiction and if he ceases to exist, so does Goku (Supergods).

Superman pulverizes black holes and feeds them to his pet regularly (All-Star Superman).

Superman once atomized a bathrobe gifted to him by Jimmy Olsen (Superman's Pal, Jimmy Olsen).
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Ultra Instinct.

superman can't even tough him, GG
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what does "pulverize black holes" mean?
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i'd say current Goku beats current comics superman. pre Dragonball Super, superman would win. but DBS literaly made the characters hundreds of billions of times stronger and faster.

pre crisis superman would probably still win regardless.

It depends on the version of Superman but at least with Super, Goku has a fighting chance against some of them.
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NFUN posted...

what does "pulverize black holes" mean?

He punches them into small lumps and then he takes them to his anvil and uses an atomic hammer to smash them.
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While I would much prefer Goku wins, he won't.

Now Frieza? He could do it since he'd have no issue with exploiting Superman's weaknesses.
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KokoroAkechi posted...

i heard that DBS has made Goku like really really strong. Can someone tell me some of his feats.

Can destroy the universe with punches and was in fact doing so.
Tanks a black hole
Tanked an attack that is the equivalent of balefire (you dont just die, you never had existence)
Is faster than ultra light speed (roll with it....)
Has a new form now where he cant be hit at all.

And hes powered up significantly since then (except that last one).

Also in the last movie they are so strong they are reality warping entire multiversal dimensions.

Oh and though it wasn't his ultimate level of strength, Superman once lifted 200 quintillion tons with one hand.
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Frieza could never beat Superman. He cant even beat the inferior monkey version of Superman

FinaIFantasy posted...

KokoroAkechi posted...

i heard that DBS has made Goku like really really strong. Can someone tell me some of his feats.

Can destroy the universe with punches and was in fact doing so.
Tanks a black hole
Tanked an attack that is the equivalent of balefire (you dont just die, you never had existence)
Is faster than ultra light speed (roll with it....)
Has a new form now where he cant be hit at all.

And hes powered up significantly since then (except that last one).

Also in the last movie they are so strong they are reality warping entire multiversal dimensions.

none of this is canon
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I think Superman once made a chain and wrapped it around a galaxy to move it. Silver Age comics are hilarious.
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GranzonEx posted...

DBS is fanfiction it doesn't count

No, you know what, I need to hear this explanation.

I've heard this for GT and I get it, but Super is Toriyama.
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GranzonEx posted...

FinaIFantasy posted...

KokoroAkechi posted...

i heard that DBS has made Goku like really really strong. Can someone tell me some of his feats.

Can destroy the universe with punches and was in fact doing so.
Tanks a black hole
Tanked an attack that is the equivalent of balefire (you dont just die, you never had existence)
Is faster than ultra light speed (roll with it....)
Has a new form now where he cant be hit at all.

And hes powered up significantly since then (except that last one).

Also in the last movie they are so strong they are reality warping entire multiversal dimensions.

none of this is canon

Even if someone is dumb enough to say Super isnt canon despite the fact AT himself says it is....

Super Broly was written completely by Toriyama. There is no ambiguity to DragonBall Super Broly being canon. It is

Absolute zero doesn't affect Goku
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Depends on which Superman really.

Peak Superman (Silver Age stuff and other similar high tier versions of him) most likely wipe the floor with current peak Goku.

Current peak Goku probably beats many other versions of Superman though.
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scarletspeed7 posted...

Oh and though it wasn't his ultimate level of strength, Superman once lifted 200 quintillion tons with one hand.

Where?
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FinaIFantasy posted...

GranzonEx posted...

FinaIFantasy posted...

KokoroAkechi posted...

i heard that DBS has made Goku like really really strong. Can someone tell me some of his feats.

Can destroy the universe with punches and was in fact doing so.
Tanks a black hole
Tanked an attack that is the equivalent of balefire (you dont just die, you never had existence)
Is faster than ultra light speed (roll with it....)
Has a new form now where he cant be hit at all.

And hes powered up significantly since then (except that last one).

Also in the last movie they are so strong they are reality warping entire multiversal dimensions.

none of this is canon

Even if someone is dumb enough to say Super isnt canon despite the fact AT himself says it is....

Super Broly was written completely by Toriyama. There is no ambiguity to DragonBall Super Broly being canon. It is

a paid sponsorship is not canon

Toriyama was paid by Toei to make those statements and endorse Toyotaro's fanfiction manga which the anime was initially based on
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Oh more Silver Age hilarity: Somehow, Krypto got a neutron star stuck on his dog collar, so Superboy (this was a prequel story) grabbed the neutron star and threw it "hundreds of billions of light-years".

I don't even know where to start on that one.
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NFUN posted...

scarletspeed7 posted...

Oh and though it wasn't his ultimate level of strength, Superman once lifted 200 quintillion tons with one hand.

Where?

All-Star Superman comic and movie.
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no i mean where in the universe did he do that
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NFUN posted...

scarletspeed7 posted...

Oh and though it wasn't his ultimate level of strength, Superman once lifted 200 quintillion tons with one hand.

Where?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nQAJTfH13Pw" data-time="
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is that earth?
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NFUN posted...

no i mean where in the universe did he do that

A bunker designed by Superman for P.R.O.J.E.C.T.
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GranzonEx posted...

FinaIFantasy posted...

GranzonEx posted...

FinaIFantasy posted...

KokoroAkechi posted...

i heard that DBS has made Goku like really really strong. Can someone tell me some of his feats.

Can destroy the universe with punches and was in fact doing so.
Tanks a black hole
Tanked an attack that is the equivalent of balefire (you dont just die, you never had existence)
Is faster than ultra light speed (roll with it....)
Has a new form now where he cant be hit at all.

And hes powered up significantly since then (except that last one).

Also in the last movie they are so strong they are reality warping entire multiversal dimensions.

none of this is canon

Even if someone is dumb enough to say Super isnt canon despite the fact AT himself says it is....

Super Broly was written completely by Toriyama. There is no ambiguity to DragonBall Super Broly being canon. It is

a paid sponsorship is not canon

Toriyama was paid by Toei to make those statements and endorse Toyotaro's fanfiction manga which the anime was initially based on

The anime was NEVER based on the manga.

Super anime and manga are both based on Toriyamas outline, and then they both give their interpretation of what the main story points he put..... but again....

BROLY WAS COMPLETELY WRITTEN BY TORIYAMA REGARDLESS!!!!!!!

some of the feats in DBS off the top of my head

probably the most well klnown one, when Goku fought Beerus , they punched each other in space and shook the entire universe. we actually see a a nearby sun going supernova as a result. and it's then said the universe would have been completely wiped if they had repeated that level of energy two or three more times

Whis flew across the universe really quickly. i dunno the exact speed but VS wikia calc'd it around hundreds of trillions of times FTL. although Goku isn't as powerful (or fast) as whis, he should at least scale to a fraction of that

during the final Arc, the characters go to the world of void, a realm described to be infinite in size. later on, Jiren manages to shake this realm, which would in theory require infinite power. although this is an unquantifiable feat so some dont accept it.

there's a character named Hit who can manipulate time. his ultimate ability creates a "time prison" around the victim where time is prevented from flowing. he does this on Jiren, who breaks through. the angels watching the match say Jiren had "transcended the concept of time itself". (jiren later fights and loses to Goku)

Zen'o (the god of the multiverse) flat out erases universes from existence by pointing a finger.

Also, you have hilarious bursts of utterly insane speed like this:

https://qph.fs.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-82a8c4650af52c506f0abb1b99fcfa9a
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scarletspeed7 posted...

Also, you have hilarious bursts of utterly insane speed like this:

https://qph.fs.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-82a8c4650af52c506f0abb1b99fcfa9a

Still not as fast as DB, or for that matter even close.

DB character were dodging things moving at special relativity with with power levels in the 160s.

They are approximately 100s of QUINTILLIONS stronger than that now.

As has been pointed out already, Whis travels 10 of trillions of time faster than the Speed of Light, Goku in only god level can move faster than Uptra Light Speed, (not even mentioning he actually moves instant when he ITs which isnt a speed so much as you are just there with no time movement).

DB would need good writing to have any sort of credible feats. You dont need a high power level at all to blow up the Earth so anybody even powering up on it after Frieza should crack the Earth into pieces. Characters supposedly get power levels into the millions and beyond, but can fight on Earth all the time and usually only small rocky areas take any real damage from their fights. Its honestly ridiculous and even the writer just phones it in and cant even remember most of his own series.

Superman's power level is actually 285r730324rjf3242383883u8756.

Seriously though, back to hilarious Superman things, there was a time when Superman traveled through the fabric of all reality to punch the concept of death in the face.

https://qph.fs.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-31681d678e47d54b297187d39373b236.webp

I don't even know. Apparently Superman can travel through emotion? Comics are the best.
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you're going to have to argue with feats that aren't made up bullshit numbers and non-canon sources

please explain how Goku at the end of the Buu arc can beat Superman when something like Buu would get his shit pushed in by pretty much everyone on the Justice League
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If Goku is so fast how come he couldnt save Trunks, Goten, Piccolo and Gohan with his instant transmissions??? Even back then he should be fast enough because its instant right?

Goku at the end of buu arc would lose to current (new 51) superman

but DBS is canon, Toriyama is the one who writes the script and sends it to Toei and Toyotaro to make the anime/manga.

swordz9 posted...

DB would need good writing to have any sort of credible feats. You dont need a high power level at all to blow up the Earth so anybody even powering up on it after Frieza should crack the Earth into pieces. Characters supposedly get power levels into the millions and beyond, but can fight on Earth all the time and usually only small rocky areas take any real damage from their fights. Its honestly ridiculous and even the writer just phones it in and cant even remember most of his own series.

Ki control.

Its why the 2 times someone actually did attempt to destroy Earth since the Vegeta battle with a blast, it happened either in seconds (Kid Buu) or instantly (Frieza).

Yamcha if he wanted to could easily blow up Earth one day, but why would he.

Its also for what its worth almost assuredly why Vegeta thinks Goku wanted to train Uub, because having Kid Buus power level but no ki control is complete death for the planet.

swordz9 posted...

If Goku is so fast how come he couldnt save Trunks, Goten, Piccolo and Gohan with his instant transmissions??? Even back then he should be fast enough because its instant right?

you're talking about a guy so dumb he didn't even know where babies come from

I'm amazed he even remembers how to breathe

Goku makes Charles II of Spain look like the perfect human specimen
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Oh fuck, I just remembered the greatest one that I've never wrapped my head around. Superman and Shazam lifted a book with AN INFINITE NUMBER OF PAGES. The multiverse apparently exists inside of it, bajillion variations of said multiverse and everything.

https://qph.fs.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-ce642e6fb7a10d50d34644856fd08fd2

Like what the fuck? Grant Morrison is such a fun writer.
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swordz9 posted...

If Goku is so fast how come he couldnt save Trunks, Goten, Piccolo and Gohan with his instant transmissions??? Even back then he should be fast enough because its instant right?

Have to have a ki signature to lock on to. King Kai is dead, so where is he going to go? New Namek he needs to be on Kais planet to get their signature.

If he knew Kibito Kai was gonna appear he could have grabbed them and then they all teleported.

But without knowing that he would have had to IT to Dende, IT to Gohan, IT to Piccolo and kids, find and IT to New Namek. And that last part is where the plan dies

The 4 of them were literally right next to each other and he had time to fly over to Hercule and Dende without using his instant transmission. He couldve grabbed the actual fighters instead or even all of them. I mean surely hes fast enough and strong enough to carry a couple people without issue. Lets face it DB started off as a gag series and the writing never evolved to a level where intelligence was required

first update:

i've read everything in the topic so far. I think the superman fans have been slightly more passionate up to this point, but it's all been good stuff.

will check back on this topic again tomorrow so hopefully there's plenty of new posts for me to scour.
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i think the implication was Goku had a choice and because hercule and dende were right in front of him, his nature kinda instinctively made him help them. at which point he flet he wouldnt have enough time to perform two instant transmissions. (one to go to where Gohan and the others were, and another to escape the planet)

but yeah the writting in DB has never been all that great. theres a ton of inconsistencies everywhere if you look. but honestly Superman might be even worse in that regard, although it is partly due to being handled by a lot of different authors.

Superman does have multiple different writers, but they all seem to be really passionate and come up with all sorts of numerical feats while DBs writer cant even remember transformations in the series or what hair color some of the characters have. Theres no reason Cell couldnt have just instantly obliterated Earth by firing a blast at it over slowly inflating himself to self destruct. Super just makes all the writing even worse too by making up the most random reasons for people who were dwarfed in power ages ago suddenly being super strong again out of nowhere. I mean all of this is silly anyways since theres a guy who just sat on the ground while an old man danced and snoozed around him and made him super strong because....I cant even remember if it had a good excuse or not

Jman_maximum posted...

probably the most well klnown one, when Goku fought Beerus , they punched each other in space and shook the entire universe. we actually see a a nearby sun going supernova as a result. and it's then said the universe would have been completely wiped if they had repeated that level of energy two or three more times

the funny part about this is that it pretty much got retconned immediately afterwards. like it was there to be impressive but Super Saiyan God got made irrelevant with Blue, then Blue got a bunch of different upgrades like kaoikan x20, resulting in Goku fighting in a stronger form that's been perfected at 40x power and nothing happening. like not even a joke of it, Blue Goku vs. Android 17 sparring match happened and stopped because they didn't want to bother the dolphins or damage the forest.

then there's how stupid everyone powered up to Blue levels for no logical reason, i.e, Frieza training for 30 minutes, Gohan training with Piccolo for a couple hours, and Android 17's existence. when you break down what Super turned into, the entire time SSJG Goku fought Beerus he wasn't even the strongest person on the planet: Android 17 was due to being a park ranger who fought against poachers.

i wouldn't use anything with Jiren either, he was clearly stronger than Goku by pretty much every metric, ultra instinct is just a cheat. Jiren's just flat out better than most of the gods of destruction and they all would get smacked around by angels. there's a good while to go.

the black hole stuff in Super was nice though. the prison attack one had both androids and base form Goku still existing in there, teleporting out was impossible, and right before that you did have Goku tank/escape one when the spirit bomb went back into him. Blue could function properly inside, though he did need to expend a lot of energy for it; 17 wasn't doing too hot and he's around the normal levels of that form.
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swordz9 posted...

Superman does have multiple different writers, but they all seem to be really passionate and come up with all sorts of numerical feats while DBs writer cant even remember transformations in the series or what hair color some of the characters have. Theres no reason Cell couldnt have just instantly obliterated Earth by firing a blast at it over slowly inflating himself to self destruct. Super just makes all the writing even worse too by making up the most random reasons for people who were dwarfed in power ages ago suddenly being super strong again out of nowhere. I mean all of this is silly anyways since theres a guy who just sat on the ground while an old man danced and snoozed around him and made him super strong because....I cant even remember if it had a good excuse or not

Yes there is....

There was LITERALLY nothing he could have done fast enough that Gohan doesnt kill him. Nothing. The MICROSECOND he so much as angled his hands to the ground, Gohan would have eviscerated every cell of him. The reason Cell did what he did was so Gohan couldnt kill him without him taking everyone else with him.

hey, they actually tried to explain the whole "uber powerful people fighting without causing damage" in super by saying Goku was..uh, balancing his power with the opponent's to cancel each other out or something? i dont recall exactly what it was, but at least they acknowledged that was something people often made fun of and tried to explain it...really badly, but still.

anyways, the only real explanation we have is that the characters can somehow limit the outward destruction caused while still mantaining planetary/galactic/universal busting power.

for example, an almost dead Freeza tanked a planet exploding on his face. Trunks stomped the same freeza with a sword. by scaling we know Trunks was attacking with more power than an exploding planet in each of those strikes, even though it makes no sense. its some concessions we have to make when ranking power levels in fiction.

this happens all the time in comics too by the way.

FinaIFantasy posted...

swordz9 posted...

Superman does have multiple different writers, but they all seem to be really passionate and come up with all sorts of numerical feats while DBs writer cant even remember transformations in the series or what hair color some of the characters have. Theres no reason Cell couldnt have just instantly obliterated Earth by firing a blast at it over slowly inflating himself to self destruct. Super just makes all the writing even worse too by making up the most random reasons for people who were dwarfed in power ages ago suddenly being super strong again out of nowhere. I mean all of this is silly anyways since theres a guy who just sat on the ground while an old man danced and snoozed around him and made him super strong because....I cant even remember if it had a good excuse or not

Yes there is....

There was LITERALLY nothing he could have done fast enough that Gohan doesnt kill him. Nothing. The MICROSECOND he so much as angled his hands to the ground, Gohan would have eviscerated every cell of him. The reason Cell did what he did was so Gohan couldnt kill him without him taking everyone else with him.

So he shoots it out of his feet instead. Problem solved.
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