Poll of the Day > Christians = Jedi. Atheists = Sith

(+) Yeah! (+)

true
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Neither Jedi nor Sith philosophies adhere particularly closely to any world religion, and atheism isn't a philosophy that can be compared to Star Wars' religions like that.
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Isn't that pretty much the other way around? The authoritarian evil empire is certainly much more similar to the way Christianity operates.
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adjl posted...

Neither Jedi nor Sith philosophies adhere particularly closely to any world religion, and atheism isn't a philosophy that can be compared to Star Wars' religions like that.

The Jedi are a blend of Taoism and Zen Buddhism.
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I would say the Jedis are more like Buddhists than Christians
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only the Sith deals in absolutes
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I was actually just thinkin about force users. Hey anyone know how to make a decent dark jedi
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Jedi are Catholics and Sith are Protestants.

Both have a deep connection and belief in the Force, but Sith reject the strict lifestyle policies of the Jedi. Things the Jedi find immoral are acceptable for the Sith.
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I'll accept this.
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JOExHIGASHI posted...

Only a Sith deals in absolutes.

I will do what I must.
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Both are religious figures
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adjl posted...

Neither Jedi nor Sith philosophies adhere particularly closely to any world religion, and atheism isn't a philosophy that can be compared to Star Wars' religions like that.

Jedi actually map to a number of Eastern philosophies quite well. Sith are basically just Westerners who deny the value of self-control and and embrace individuality and the drive to succeed at all costs (ie, the Nietzschean "Will to Power").

If not for the "Oh, and you magically become Nazi-level evil the moment you give in" aspect to the Dark Side (which has always been at least somewhat stupid), most people on the board would easily fall into the Sith mentality.


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ParanoidObsessive posted...

adjl posted...

Neither Jedi nor Sith philosophies adhere particularly closely to any world religion, and atheism isn't a philosophy that can be compared to Star Wars' religions like that.

Jedi actually map to a number of Eastern philosophies quite well. Sith are basically just Westerners who deny the value of self-control and and embrace individuality and the drive to succeed at all costs (ie, the Nietzschean "Will to Power").

If not for the "Oh, and you magically become Nazi-level evil the moment you give in" aspect to the Dark Side (which has always been at least somewhat stupid), most people on the board would easily fall into the Sith mentality.

The Force has a will of its own, and all that jazz.

The Jedi see it as an ally & friend. The Sith see it as a tool to enslave to their will (ironically being bent to its will instead).
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If anything, the Grey Jedi are atheist, that still celebrates christian holidays
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I have the higher ground!
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Han Solo was the atheist.

Han: "Hokey religions and ancient weapons are no match for a good blaster at your side, kid."
Luke: "You don't believe in the Force, do you?"
Han: "Kid, I've flown from one side of this galaxy to the other. I've seen a lot of strange stuff, but I've never seen anything to make me believe there's one all-powerful force controlling everything. There's no mystical energy field that controls my destiny."

JOExHIGASHI posted...

I have the higher ground!

https://www.reddit.com/r/copypasta/comments/7zcnx1/theory_of_the_high_ground_technique/
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The facts check out.
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ParanoidObsessive posted...

adjl posted...

Neither Jedi nor Sith philosophies adhere particularly closely to any world religion, and atheism isn't a philosophy that can be compared to Star Wars' religions like that.

Jedi actually map to a number of Eastern philosophies quite well. Sith are basically just Westerners who deny the value of self-control and and embrace individuality and the drive to succeed at all costs (ie, the Nietzschean "Will to Power").

If not for the "Oh, and you magically become Nazi-level evil the moment you give in" aspect to the Dark Side (which has always been at least somewhat stupid), most people on the board would easily fall into the Sith mentality.

I like the way Kotor did it. The Jedi are basically emotionless dullards while the Sith embrace their passions. The only problem being the vast majority of them have a passion for violently murdering people.

Other then that though it's undeniable that black robes and a red lightsaber is just way cooler.
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sith would be satanists
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Yeah sith would be Satanist, Jedi would be some big religion.

The force is actually refered to as a religion by a couple people. Star Wars atheists are just the characters who haven't actually seen anyone use force powers.

Gamerguymass posted...

ParanoidObsessive posted...

adjl posted...

Neither Jedi nor Sith philosophies adhere particularly closely to any world religion, and atheism isn't a philosophy that can be compared to Star Wars' religions like that.

Jedi actually map to a number of Eastern philosophies quite well. Sith are basically just Westerners who deny the value of self-control and and embrace individuality and the drive to succeed at all costs (ie, the Nietzschean "Will to Power").

If not for the "Oh, and you magically become Nazi-level evil the moment you give in" aspect to the Dark Side (which has always been at least somewhat stupid), most people on the board would easily fall into the Sith mentality.

I like the way Kotor did it. The Jedi are basically emotionless dullards while the Sith embrace their passions. The only problem being the vast majority of them have a passion for violently murdering people.

Other then that though it's undeniable that black robes and a red lightsaber is just way cooler.

The irony being that many Light-Sided decisions in both KotOR 1 & 2 were either emotionally-appealing, compassionate, or impulsive in themselves; and that the remaining Jedi in KotOR 2 were apathetic and "waiting" for the true enemy.

It's not the Light Side itself that's all about being emotionless drones, as even Jolee Bindo indirectly pointed out. It's the Jedi Order that decided it was the best way to act.

As Kreia would put it... "Apathy is death".
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Jedi and sith literally believe in the same "deity".
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ifnsman posted...

Gamerguymass posted...

ParanoidObsessive posted...

adjl posted...

Neither Jedi nor Sith philosophies adhere particularly closely to any world religion, and atheism isn't a philosophy that can be compared to Star Wars' religions like that.

Jedi actually map to a number of Eastern philosophies quite well. Sith are basically just Westerners who deny the value of self-control and and embrace individuality and the drive to succeed at all costs (ie, the Nietzschean "Will to Power").

If not for the "Oh, and you magically become Nazi-level evil the moment you give in" aspect to the Dark Side (which has always been at least somewhat stupid), most people on the board would easily fall into the Sith mentality.

I like the way Kotor did it. The Jedi are basically emotionless dullards while the Sith embrace their passions. The only problem being the vast majority of them have a passion for violently murdering people.

Other then that though it's undeniable that black robes and a red lightsaber is just way cooler.

The irony being that many Light-Sided decisions in both KotOR 1 & 2 were either emotionally-appealing, compassionate, or impulsive in themselves; and that the remaining Jedi in KotOR 2 were apathetic and "waiting" for the true enemy.

It's not the Light Side itself that's all about being emotionless drones, as even Jolee Bindo indirectly pointed out. It's the Jedi Order that decided it was the best way to act.

As Kreia would put it... "Apathy is death".

The way I always understood it is that people who utilize the Dark Side and are even willing to tap into such power in the first place are almost always self-focused. Someone who uses the light side might see that cute girl but would realize she's married and off-limits while someone who uses the dark wouldn't give a **** so long as they got to ****. And they just got the ability to shoot lightning out of their ass. Anni's downfall seemed to be his own self-interest. How he cared about Padme so much as to be willing to forsake the light side in order to gain the power to save her life. It's not until movie six that things finally change and he has a reason to deny his own self interests again that we see redemption.

Basically, in order to be the ideal hero and jedi said jedi must be able to put aside their own self-interests, wants, and desires in favor of those of others. The Jedi Order's extreme focus on self-denial aided this by ensuring most beings had little to no self-interests, wants, or desires would ensure most jedi simply lack the sense of self to even be making such a decision even though it lead to a monk-like lifestyle. Meanwhile the Sith, basically composed of the notion of the self, would gladly do whatever they wanted because who the **** is going to stop them? Thing is; so few cared even one bit about others beyond their own immediate sphere that it turned them into sociopaths basically.

That's how I've always thought of it.
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JOExHIGASHI posted...

only the Sith deals in absolutes

This quote is proof that the writing in Star Wars has been a joke for longer than some would care to admit.

VeeVees posted...

Jedi and sith literally believe in the same "deity".

Kind of like Christians and Muslims in that regard.

Yep, I went there.

No way in heck. Christians are Sith. Only a Sith deals in absolutes and a lot of Christians say their way is the only way.
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Unbridled9 posted...

Someone who uses the light side might see that cute girl but would realize she's married and off-limits while someone who uses the dark wouldn't give a **** so long as they got to ****.

The problem is, what you're describing is the common sense path to being a good person. But canonically, the Light Side Jedi doesn't think that way. What they actually think is that they are FORBIDDEN to be interested in that cute girl, whether she's married, single, or actively interested in him. The moment you indulge in anything resembling personal affection (as opposed to a vague overarching "love your fellow man" sort of compassionate affection), even if every other sentient being in the galaxy would say it's perfectly acceptable, you've opened the door to the Dark Side.

In a way, if you want to separate Jedi/Sith into selfless/selfish categories, then Jedi go straight past "reasonably good" and into "you must sacrifice EVERYTHING that you might personally desire, regardless of whether or not it effects anyone else". It's why they map to Eastern religions well - they're not trying to be GOOD as much as they are trying to detach themselves from worldly desires and distractions. To love is to want, and wanting is a sin. Clear your mind, meditate, release your worldly bonds and fetters. Go with the flow, accept your fate, leave behind all regrets and desires. Give up all sense of individual identity and meaning in favor of communion with the greater truth. And finally, release yourself into the oblivion of Nirvana/Brahman/Atman/etc - aka, The Force.

The Sith are just the inverse of that. They want it all, and they want it now. And they don't care who gets hurt in the process, but it's the WANTING more than the HURT that makes them Sith. They're the ultimate individualists.

Basically, Jedi border on "Lawful Stupid" and Sith are often "Chaotic Stupid" or "Stupid Evil".

It's part of why a lot of Westerners have a hard time understanding the Jedi, or sympathizing with them, and why there's always a number of people who prefer the Sith. We're from a culture that has always emphasized pursuing worldly wealth and success, and praise individual worth and ability. The Jedi are absolutely opposed to that mentality and everything it represents. Buddhism (and its various complex sects and offshoots) is predicated on the belief that the world is a terrible place and the ultimate goal should be to cease to exist as an individual consciousness, because individuality is one of the underlying causes of suffering. To become "one with the Force" is to cease to be as a person, functionally becoming just one drop of water in an infinite ocean.

Yes, it would probably be more interesting and more realistic to have a Jedi Order who are dedicated to helping others but who are also willing to seek individual happiness, while the Sith are devoted to selfish goals but still capable of love, honor, loyalty, or even occasional mercy... but that's not canon in Star Wars. The moment you feel love, you are touching the Light Side. The moment you get angry - even righteous, fully-justified anger, you are inviting the Dark Side in.

It's the main thing that sucks about Star Wars. The morality of the Force is an absolutist black/white divide that magically influences the thoughts of anyone who dares to have strong feelings. Anakin goes from a desperate and conflicted man who just wants to save his girlfriend to someone who gleefully murders children without hesitation 30 seconds later because the Dark Side switch got flipped. That's... not really compelling narrative.


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Fierce_Deity_08 posted...

No way in heck. Christians are Sith. Only a Sith deals in absolutes and a lot of Christians say their way is the only way.

"Only the Sith deal in absolutes" is itself an absolutist statement. By that logic, both you and Obi-Wan himself would be Sith.

Also of note, "a lot of Christians say absolutist things, therefore all Christians are Sith" is also an absolutist statement, which would make you doubly Sith.


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ParanoidObsessive posted...

Fierce_Deity_08 posted...

No way in heck. Christians are Sith. Only a Sith deals in absolutes and a lot of Christians say their way is the only way.

"Only the Sith deal in absolutes" is itself an absolutist statement. By that logic, both you and Obi-Wan himself would be Sith.

Also of note, "a lot of Christians say absolutist things, therefore all Christians are Sith" is also an absolutist statement, which would make you doubly Sith.

Of course Im a Sith, I love wearing black and they look more fun and interesting.
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Would atheists even believe in the force?
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How can you not believe in a demonstrably real phenomenon?
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VeeVees posted...

How can you not believe in a demonstrably real phenomenon?

If this was after episode 3 then there was very few people that could demonstrate it.
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JOExHIGASHI posted...

VeeVees posted...

How can you not believe in a demonstrably real phenomenon?

If this was after episode 3 then there was very few people that could demonstrate it.

This, and also at their peak there was only something like 10,000 Jedi. That's not really very many in a universe of trillions. There would easily be people that had never seen a Jedi, especially in the remote parts of the universe. Take Anakin in Episode I for example. The Jedi were really nothing more than a legend to him. He had only heard exaggerated stories such as, "Nothing can kill a Jedi."

@ParanoidObsessive

Well, that's part of the issue with the old Jedi order. They became so insular and focused on detachment that they couldn't deal with the rising, and blatant, issues in front of them. The very same beliefs that had allowed them to flourish also made them easy to destroy. I would say, however, that the issue was with the order and not with the jedi or the light side. For example, family. A family can be a wonderful thing, but it can also lead to manipulation, strife, and rage which are all things which, in turn, can lead to the dark side. A single, specific, jedi may not have a problem with, say, finding out that their parents just got killed. They may be hurt, upset, and the like... but they are smarter, more centered, and know better and can ensure they stick to the light. However, when you take that and magnify that to an entire galaxy of jedi over hundreds, if not thousands, of years things are different. The orders choices minimized the chances of it happening in the first place, but they don't seem to have really developed methods to deal with it once it happened. For example, if the order knew how to deal with jedi who desired to start a family better instead of treating it as... how it did... Anni may have had a happy family with his wife and two kids.

As for Anni's turn to the dark side; I disagree that he turned in an instant. Throughout the second and third movies we see that he's become increasingly attached to Padme. I'd say that it likely wasn't long into the third movie that he became more attached to Padme than he did to the order itself. It was only that the two didn't conflict that allowed him to remain a jedi. Considering that he saw his attachment to Padme as good and healthy and it was something that the order shunned his faith being shaken and eventual turning seems inevitable.

What IS unrealistic however is... how fast he went from suspecting Palpatine was a Sith and siccing Mace on him to betraying the Jedi. I still don't get that. Anni knew the Sith were bad news and liars or at least corrupt. He's just rooted out one of the biggest Sith who is blatantly tempting him and said Sith is literally there shooting lightning at Mace and losing... and Anni suddenly turns? It could have worked if they had given a few more scenes to Anni's temptation and fall and the whole thing ended up being a trap/set-up, but as-is it came right out of nowhere.
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dancer62 posted...

Isn't that pretty much the other way around? The authoritarian evil empire is certainly much more similar to the way Christianity operates.

The jedi insist you sacrifice your family for the good like God would, and sith are pretty free to do their own thing and have learnt how to practically heal people with knowledge of the world.
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@Unbridled9 posted...

What IS unrealistic however is... how fast he went from suspecting Palpatine was a Sith and siccing Mace on him to betraying the Jedi. I still don't get that. Anni knew the Sith were bad news and liars or at least corrupt. He's just rooted out one of the biggest Sith who is blatantly tempting him and said Sith is literally there shooting lightning at Mace and losing... and Anni suddenly turns? It could have worked if they had given a few more scenes to Anni's temptation and fall and the whole thing ended up being a trap/set-up, but as-is it came right out of nowhere.

Yeah, to be honest, the Star Wars prequels really could've used better writing/directing in many parts, including that one.

I actually liked The Phantom Menace (and am a subscriber to the "Darth Jar Jar" theory), but even I can admit that it needed better story direction. George Lucas should not have done it on his own.

That's why the Original Trilogy is still so highly praised by many (though, to be honest, I actually hated "Empire Strikes Back"). George Lucas had help.
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Sure. Though, I will say this about the story of the prequels over the new movies... At least they were imaginative and different. TFA was just ANH redone and TLJ was a combination of TESB in reverse with a directer intent on giving the middle finger to everything.

Edit: Oh. And on the whole Christianity vs. Atheism thing... No. Just no. Christianity and atheism have almost nothing to do with the jedi and sith. Trying to equate one with its 'counterpart' would take stupidly-massive leaps in logic.
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Unbridled9 posted...

Sure. Though, I will say this about the story of the prequels over the new movies... At least they were imaginative and different. TFA was just ANH redone and TLJ was a combination of TESB in reverse with a directer intent on giving the middle finger to everything.

Edit: Oh. And on the whole Christianity vs. Atheism thing... No. Just no. Christianity and atheism have almost nothing to do with the jedi and sith. Trying to equate one with its 'counterpart' would take stupidly-massive leaps in logic.

I find your lack of faith disturbing
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Unbridled9 posted...

Edit: Oh. And on the whole Christianity vs. Atheism thing... No. Just no. Christianity and atheism have almost nothing to do with the jedi and sith. Trying to equate one with its 'counterpart' would take stupidly-massive leaps in logic.

Wholeheartedly agreed.
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Kyuubi4269 posted...

The jedi insist you sacrifice your family for the good like God would

And the Sith would just sacrifice everyone else's family, mostly for shits and giggles.



Unbridled9 posted...

I would say, however, that the issue was with the order and not with the jedi or the light side.

The problem is, in the movies as presented, the Jedi basically ARE the Light Side.

(And we were talking about the Jedi as opposed to the Light Side anyway, so it's kind of immaterial regardless)

The other problem is that, if you go by the EU, a lot of the Jedi's problems were having grown hidebound and somewhat dogmatic over thousands of years, with the goal of Luke's New Jedi Order to be to strip out the unnecessary parts and focus on what REALLY matters (hence why Luke was willing to train adults and was himself willing to get married and have kids). Which, if we want to continue the attempt at a Christianity metaphor, actually mirrors the Church quite well - the entire point of the Reformation was to strip away a lot of the dogma in favor of a more focused, individualistic faith, and a lot of Protestant groups tend to emphasis "love" as the defining characteristic of the faith versus all of the other aspects (and some Protestants allow priests to get married and have families).

But the new movies basically tell us that never happened, and Luke's new Jedi was mostly just a failure because Luke was a fuck up, and he almost murdered his nephew. Then everybody died and he went to go hide for decades. So canonically, we have no actual proof that the Jedi can ever be anything other than what they were.

There's an implication at the end of the movie that maybe a third path exists that is neither Jedi nor Sith, but that entire movie is probably going to get retconned into oblivion once Episode IX comes out, so who knows?



Unbridled9 posted...

As for Anni's turn to the dark side; I disagree that he turned in an instant.

What IS unrealistic however is... how fast he went from suspecting Palpatine was a Sith and siccing Mace on him to betraying the Jedi. I still don't get that. Anni knew the Sith were bad news and liars or at least corrupt. He's just rooted out one of the biggest Sith who is blatantly tempting him and said Sith is literally there shooting lightning at Mace and losing... and Anni suddenly turns? It could have worked if they had given a few more scenes to Anni's temptation and fall and the whole thing ended up being a trap/set-up, but as-is it came right out of nowhere.

Which is my point. He didn't go from a mostly conflicted hero who was somewhat morally ambiguous into a somewhat justified villain who was only siding with the bad guy to save his beloved. He went from a mostly conflicted hero who was somewhat morally ambiguous and who had a history of throwing angry tantrums into a stone-cold murderer who doesn't hesitate or question orders when told to go slaughter a bunch of children, and who seems to almost entirely stop caring about his loved one in favor of following orders, right up until he chokes said loved one to death.

After his Dark Side switch gets flipped, he has precisely TWO moments of "good" - when he yells the Big No after being told Padme was dead, and when he turns to save Luke. Which we're told is the sliver of the Light Side still in him, which is why his Force ghost reverts back to young Anakin in Lucas' shitty re-edit. When he turns to the Dark Side, he literally BECOMES "Vader", and "Anakin" mostly ceases to exist. Because the Dark Side is magic.


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