Poll of the Day > Metroidvania game design: What don't you like?

(+) Yeah! (+)

I'm developing one now, and am about 3 months into the project and work on it every spare chance I can.

Personally-speaking I don't like backtracking to the point of it being obnoxious. Another is finding a weapon that outclasses everything else.

To these points:

The map so far doesn't have many big hallway dead end deals and I've been trying to incorporate lots of vertical pathways between areas and rooms (the original Dark Souls does this masterfully). And all weapons have some sort of unique thing about them, so that players might still want to hold onto the starting dagger potentially.
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Metroidvania games usually have a fair amount of backtracking, as you gain new abilities that allow you past obstacles you've encountered in earlier stages. I don't mind this, but one thing about this aspect I dislike is when the enemies remain the same. You get increasingly powerful, but enemies in the early areas are the same low-level riffraff. It's cool when a game mixes it up and throws a curveball or two your way. Introduce a few new enemies, or make the enemies stronger, or even alter the level so it's not what you expect when you return.
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I can't think of anything in particular that I dislike.

To add to Far-Queue's suggestion, one way to break up the potential monotony of backtracking is to have a semi-powerful enemy that has a small random chance of appearing in any previously visited area. You could tie it into the story; have a miniboss that holds a grudge against the hero or something.
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Far-Queue posted...

Metroidvania games usually have a fair amount of backtracking, as you gain new abilities that allow you past obstacles you've encountered in earlier stages. I don't mind this, but one thing about this aspect I dislike is when the enemies remain the same. You get increasingly powerful, but enemies in the early areas are the same low-level riffraff. It's cool when a game mixes it up and throws a curveball or two your way. Introduce a few new enemies, or make the enemies stronger, or even alter the level so it's not what you expect when you return.

See to me that sounds a lot like a type of level scaling, which is something I don't usually like because it makes it seem like you haven't really grown more powerful or progressed since you're fighting things that are always your equal.
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keyblader1985 posted...

I can't think of anything in particular that I dislike.

To add to Far-Queue's suggestion, one way to break up the potential monotony of backtracking is to have a semi-powerful enemy that has a small random chance of appearing in any previously visited area. You could tie it into the story; have a miniboss that holds a grudge against the hero or something.

Do you mean like Dark Samus in Metroid Fusion?

Thank you both, by the way. In a vacuum I can sometimes lose perspective on stuff like this!
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Far-Queue posted...

Metroidvania games usually have a fair amount of backtracking, as you gain new abilities that allow you past obstacles you've encountered in earlier stages. I don't mind this, but one thing about this aspect I dislike is when the enemies remain the same. You get increasingly powerful, but enemies in the early areas are the same low-level riffraff. It's cool when a game mixes it up and throws a curveball or two your way. Introduce a few new enemies, or make the enemies stronger, or even alter the level so it's not what you expect when you return.

Yep- I love when games make new enemies in previously traveled areas. It's the thing that requires effort from the devs and makes a difference.

A good recent example of this is in Hollow Knight. IIRC previous areas become "infested" as the game progresses, resulting in more difficult steroided enemies
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I once had a game called Hasslevania 2 where killing the big bat boss enemy made mosquito enemies appear in earlier areas because he wasn't around to eat them anymore.

Maybe something like that would work here?
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Play Monster Tale on the DS. That game is a perfect example of a bad map structure for a metroidvania. It basically consists of going to one side of the map to find an item that lets you access an area on the other side of the map, repeated until the end. And it's nothing but long corridors.
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I like when there is a usefull telporting system. It minimizes the length of the backtracking so it doesn't feel tidious.
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Zareth posted...

Play Monster Tale on the DS. That game is a perfect example of a bad map structure for a metroidvania. It basically consists of going to one side of the map to find an item that lets you access an area on the other side of the map, repeated until the end. And it's nothing but long corridors.

Yeah that is exactly what I am avoiding, that is the wrong sort of backtracking.
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Wii3Kings posted...

I like when there is a usefull telporting system. It minimizes the length of the backtracking so it doesn't feel tidious.

There will for sure be some method of this. Maybe tie it to boss kills or something. I thought about having an elevator too that you have to find at the top and activate, then you can use it on any floor below it afterward.
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Black_Crusher posted...

I once had a game called Hasslevania 2 where killing the big bat boss enemy made mosquito enemies appear in earlier areas because he wasn't around to eat them anymore.

Maybe something like that would work here?

Yeah and megaman x stages changed drastically in some cases depending on the bosses you beat.

Monster Tale was fun, but that was one of its flaws.

I don't know about enemy scaling (or not too much anyway); one thing I enjoy about games is feeling just how much stronger/better I've gotten over time, and if all the enemies stay near your level then you don't really see that effect.
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keyblader1985 posted...

Monster Tale was fun, but that was one of its flaws.

I don't know about enemy scaling (or not too much anyway); one thing I enjoy about games is feeling just how much stronger/better I've gotten over time, and if all the enemies stay near your level then you don't really see that effect.

One of my main gripes with Oblivon, and more recently Enter the Gungeon.
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I haven't played too many but I think Super Metroid vs. Metroid Fusion is a good comparison of what to do vs. what not to do. From what I remember, Super is a lot more interconnected and circular, which helps keep down on the backtracking. Fusion is a lot more "go through this area, go back through it, go to the next one", which I don't like. It doesn't feel like a true Metroid game. There's also a lot of opening doors via switches and story events, which I find a bit inorganic. It's better to have progression based on abilities.

I agree with the sentiment that I like the feeling of being more powerful. I'm not sure if scaling up the difficulty or putting harder enemies in early areas is really the right answer. I don't think you need to make everything have some kind of use, either. IIRC, in Super Metroid once you get everything upgraded there are still times you need the plasma beam or the ice beam, but you don't need to turn off the wave beam or go back to the regular power. That's fine with me, there is at least some variation (I think - but I could be remembering wrong and the beams stack completely). It depends on the vibe you're going for with the game but I think Metroid at least is really more exploration focused and they save most of the combat challenge for the bosses.

Black_Crusher posted...

Wii3Kings posted...

I like when there is a usefull telporting system. It minimizes the length of the backtracking so it doesn't feel tidious.

There will for sure be some method of this. Maybe tie it to boss kills or something. I thought about having an elevator too that you have to find at the top and activate, then you can use it on any floor below it afterward.

Be sure that the teleport system doesn't give the players a way to skip over crucial areas. I was playing Metroid Prime recently, pining for some kind of fast travel, but then realized it would be bad because of how the game is designed at many points with two main paths, and often encourages you to take the path you skipped before on the way back from a given area. But since you're working in 2D it's probably a little easier to avoid that issue.

Chewster posted...

Be sure that the teleport system doesn't give the players a way to skip over crucial areas.

For an example of this, see Dark Souls (done right) vs Dark Souls 2 and 3 (done not as good.)
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Also, abilities that let you quickly move through older areas are better than straight up teleports.
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Not having a map that identifies what the barrier is from pervious areas.

IE if there's a missle door, the map should show it as a missle door. Not just a generic locked door or some shit.
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Black_Crusher posted...

I don't like backtracking to the point of it being obnoxious.

Arrange the map so that the end of the current path places the player near the beginning of the next one, or at least circles back to a de facto "hub" area, probably via "shortcuts" opening up.

Another is finding a weapon that outclasses everything else.

Exploit combinations.
"Oh, I found the chaninsaw. Let's see if I like if better than the Boomerang."
"Oh, I found the fire add-on. I'm gonna try with the chainsaw, boomerang, nunchucks, etc., and see what I like best, or maybe just sitck with ice?"

Questionmarktarius posted...

Arrange the map so that the end of the current path places the player near the beginning of the next one, or at least circles back to a de facto "hub" area.

Don't do this too much. I hate how every dungeon in Skyrim is basically a loop with a one way door back to the beginning. It makes areas seem more like levels than actual places.
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Zareth posted...

Questionmarktarius posted...

Arrange the map so that the end of the current path places the player near the beginning of the next one, or at least circles back to a de facto "hub" area.

Don't do this too much. I hate how every dungeon in Skyrim is basically a loop with a one way door back to the beginning. It makes areas seem more like levels than actual places.

Then arrange it like a golf course. Overtly linear, but there's a path from hole 12 to hole 3 to the clubhouse if you need to go pee or something.
Or, the door is no longer one-way once you've unlocked it from the other side.

The main teleporter would be back to your base camp of sorts, which is on the edge of the main map and everything else. That's the one important one I think would cut down frustration for many future players.

As for powers / power ups and etc, here's what I have:

Weapons:

Dagger (double damage vs enemies from behind)

Whip (long range very fast)

Flail (powerful and can break rock piles which block some paths)

Torch (fire damage and can burn thorny bushes. Also lights up dark areas while equipped)

Zweihander (high damage spin attack, can't use shield while equipped)

Axe (not bad, but attacks in arc pattern so it's good BS flying things)

Sword (medium range / damage)

Orange Wand (magic damage- fires 3 projectiles down and diagonally for high damage)

Blue Wand (magic damage- fires 3 projectiles up and away for low damage but the projectiles can travel through obstacles and enemies)

Meat Cleaver (arc attack swing / very low damage but builds blood w each hit. At full charge hits like a truck)

Golden Axe. This is an upgrade for the regular axe. Gains speed, damage, and item drops are tripled.

Icebrand. The upgraded sword. Deals cold damage and can freeze many enemies solid, who can then be used as platforms (ex Metroid enemies and the ice beam only they never thaw)

Power ups:

Rings (purple / red) increases physical and magic damage

Blue ring (slows down Death timer by half)

Shield - Able to block projectiles. Increases damage reduction by 10%

Helmet- Able to head butt and break cracked ceilings. Increases damage reduction by 15%

Armor- 25% damage reduction

Key - Opens any locked door

Dash Booster- Allows for sprinting

Boots - Allows for high jumps

Map - Shows the map and your current position
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Black_Crusher posted...

The main teleporter would be back to your base camp of sorts, which is on the edge of the main map and everything else. That's the one important one I think would cut down frustration for many future players.

Have you considered a 'wagon wheel' arrangement?
https://customwagonwheels.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/01/Best-Chandelier-wagon-wheel-1-300x300.jpg

I don't think the map should be a power-up, unless you mean it's like Zelda/Metroid style where you always have a map that fills in as you go along but there is a place where you can get the "full" map of the area.

And I understand none of these are super unique or world-shattering but I'm working towards an overall experience that will be unique and hopefully world-shattering.

You are sent out at the behest of an oppressed sect of people vs a tyrannical jerk, and lots of the game so far is devoted to how this guy kills the people in funny ways (if that makes sense) it's not as morbid as it may sound.

You are also on a timer, because you've been resurrected and the effect only lasts for so long. I don't think there's another Metroidvania where the guy is on a timer so it should be different at least.
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Black_Crusher posted...

You are also on a timer, because you've been resurrected and the effect only lasts for so long.

Are you sure metroidvania is the genre you actually want?

Chewster posted...

I don't think the map should be a power-up, unless you mean it's like Zelda/Metroid style where you always have a map that fills in as you go along but there is a place where you can get the "full" map of the area.

Yeah maybe power up is the wrong term. On the subscreen it's with the others under the "items" header while the weapons are on the other side under "arms".

For now it's very basic because I'm not far in yet despite my good progress. For now it acts like NES Zelda does on the overworld- Think a rectangle broken down into sections and the one that flashes is the section you're in. It will be more detailed later.
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Questionmarktarius posted...

Black_Crusher posted...

You are also on a timer, because you've been resurrected and the effect only lasts for so long.

Are you sure metroidvania is the genre you actually want?

Yeah, isn't having a time limit kind of at odds with a genre that is based around exploration? Majora's Mask pulled it off, but it wasn't really a true time limit.

Chewster posted...

Questionmarktarius posted...

Black_Crusher posted...

You are also on a timer, because you've been resurrected and the effect only lasts for so long.

Are you sure metroidvania is the genre you actually want?

Yeah, isn't having a time limit kind of at odds with a genre that is based around exploration? Majora's Mask pulled it off, but it wasn't really a true time limit.

Everything so far points more towards a Megaman knockoff.

Questionmarktarius posted...

Black_Crusher posted...

You are also on a timer, because you've been resurrected and the effect only lasts for so long.

Are you sure metroidvania is the genre you actually want?

OH for sure!

I love designing the map for these.

Here is an old example from 2008 (big image):

http://www.dxfgames.com/H1_Map.PNG

This took me 10 months to do, basically solo. It was way too much work and I got majorly burned out.
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keyblader1985 posted...

To add to Far-Queue's suggestion, one way to break up the potential monotony of backtracking is to have a semi-powerful enemy that has a small random chance of appearing in any previously visited area. You could tie it into the story; have a miniboss that holds a grudge against the hero or something.

I like this.
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Chewster posted...

Questionmarktarius posted...

Black_Crusher posted...

You are also on a timer, because you've been resurrected and the effect only lasts for so long.

Are you sure metroidvania is the genre you actually want?

Yeah, isn't having a time limit kind of at odds with a genre that is based around exploration? Majora's Mask pulled it off, but it wasn't really a true time limit.

There's more:

What you have to return to these oppressed people in order to save them (and extend the timer) is also what the shopkeepers demand from you if you want to buy things.

Will you sacrifice helping the people to help yourself, even if it means you won't live as long?

It's going to be tricky to pull off. It I'm hoping for the best.
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Same time post!
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Backtracking is fine, but what I really like in Metroidvanias is sequence-breaking, which can also cut down on some of the backtracking.

Black_Crusher posted...

Another is finding a weapon that outclasses everything else.

One of my big hates is requiring a lot of weapon-switching. I love upgrades where one weapon is capable of hurting everything, even if another weapon might be slightly better at it.

Honestly, that's one of the things that the Metroid games do well -- as you go along, your weapon can be upgraded to have different qualities. That way you're not stuck weapon-switching and you aren't stuck with useless weapons.

Black_Crusher posted...

The map so far doesn't have many big hallway dead end deals and I've been trying to incorporate lots of vertical pathways between areas and rooms (the original Dark Souls does this masterfully).

Having a mirror-world map would also be kinda neat, where you'd potentially have extra ways to bypass areas by having the option to jump "sideways" instead of just doing horizontal or vertical maps.

Black_Crusher posted...

And all weapons have some sort of unique thing about them, so that players might still want to hold onto the starting dagger potentially.

As long as it's not something you *have* to use, though.

Far-Queue posted...

Metroidvania games usually have a fair amount of backtracking, as you gain new abilities that allow you past obstacles you've encountered in earlier stages. I don't mind this, but one thing about this aspect I dislike is when the enemies remain the same. You get increasingly powerful, but enemies in the early areas are the same low-level riffraff. It's cool when a game mixes it up and throws a curveball or two your way. Introduce a few new enemies, or make the enemies stronger, or even alter the level so it's not what you expect when you return.

tbh, there should be some good reason for the change. I hate games where weak enemies are replaced by stronger ones with no story-explanation for it.

Also, it'd be neat if the rooms changed slightly while backtracking (ie, things may fall down -- maybe even blocking other passages (and requiring a tool to reopen them) -- the background looks a bit different, etc), provided that there's a storyline reason for it.

Chewster posted...

I haven't played too many but I think Super Metroid vs. Metroid Fusion is a good comparison of what to do vs. what not to do. From what I remember, Super is a lot more interconnected and circular, which helps keep down on the backtracking. Fusion is a lot more "go through this area, go back through it, go to the next one", which I don't like. It doesn't feel like a true Metroid game. There's also a lot of opening doors via switches and story events, which I find a bit inorganic. It's better to have progression based on abilities.

Plus Fusion kinda cheat by having you move between maps with a teleporter or something?

Black_Crusher posted...

I once had a game called Hasslevania 2 where killing the big bat boss enemy made mosquito enemies appear in earlier areas because he wasn't around to eat them anymore.

Maybe something like that would work here?

I really like that, since you've got a clear cause & effect.
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Backtraking is unavoidable, and imo is hardly the problem. The problem lies in the fact that you may have found yourself in a dead end that is obvious that you need to use an ability you don't have yet, to earn that ability 10 in game hours later and don't remember exactly where that dead end was. If the player can somehow mark the map to remember where to come back later, I think it would make things 1000 times better.

VixYW posted...

If the player can somehow mark the map to remember where to come back later, I think it would make things 1000 times better.

It would be even betterer if the game marked that itself.

The main one I dislike are long, linear sections where it just feels like you are following a single path all the way to a boss, then you get deposited into an area near the beginning. At that point, why even make your game Metroidvania style? I felt Hollow Knight had a ton of this and it just made the game annoying to play for me.

Also, I think backtracking is fine, but the levels need to be designed in such a way that it doesn't take too long to backtrack, and the areas are varied enough that you don't see the same things over and over again. For example, the original Metroid had this problem really bad. Granted, the levels weren't incredibly complicated, but some sections took like 10 minutes to get through, then you had to backtrack through them again just to get back to the beginning.

Really, just follow Super Metroid. I feel it is probably the best Metroidvania style game to this day.
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Questionmarktarius posted...

VixYW posted...

If the player can somehow mark the map to remember where to come back later, I think it would make things 1000 times better.

It would be even betterer if the game marked that itself.

Yes and no. The former requires the player to recognise that there's something there and he will need to come back later on, and the later gives this away. So it depends on what kind of experience the game is trying to give to the player.

Fusion was great, yo
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Metalsonic66 posted...

Fusion was great, yo

Great at being a railroad, sure.

Great at being a great game
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Questionmarktarius posted...

VixYW posted...

If the player can somehow mark the map to remember where to come back later, I think it would make things 1000 times better.

It would be even betterer if the game marked that itself.

Almost like the game had a kind of map which showed how far you've proceeded and whether there's something like an unopened door somewhere.
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Zeus posted...

Questionmarktarius posted...

VixYW posted...

If the player can somehow mark the map to remember where to come back later, I think it would make things 1000 times better.

It would be even betterer if the game marked that itself.

Almost like the game had a kind of map which showed how far you've proceeded and whether there's something like an unopened door somewhere.

...while the bad ones have an unmarked hidden item in there, but it's a "closed" dead end you'll forget about.

A door isn't useful information when the obstacle might be bombable, a dash block, etc.

Chewster posted...

A door isn't useful information when the obstacle might be bombable, a dash block, etc.

No, but an 'open' square on the map usually is.

Metalsonic66 posted...

Great at being a great game

It's good, but I wouldn't call it great. It was something different, I'll give it that, but I don't really get an urge to play it again like Super Metroid

to me it's the fluidity. super metriod and hallow knight felt really great because of the fluidity. Metriod 2 and it's dodge system didn't really have it because the enemies will hit you and you have to stop and dodge and then shoot them. You can't just run and gun.
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Chewster posted...

Metalsonic66 posted...

Great at being a great game

It's good, but I wouldn't call it great.

I would.
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VixYW posted...

Questionmarktarius posted...

VixYW posted...

If the player can somehow mark the map to remember where to come back later, I think it would make things 1000 times better.

It would be even betterer if the game marked that itself.

Yes and no. The former requires the player to recognise that there's something there and he will need to come back later on, and the later gives this away. So it depends on what kind of experience the game is trying to give to the player.

That is probably more a problem with modern games in general. Games can give you tons of cool options like marking a map, saving anywhere, etc. Where it gets to be annoying is when they give you those options but take control away for them. Like marking a map for you or checkpoints. Checkpoints are always a big example of this for me because checkpoints fundamentally changed how gameplay worked as they require the game to not unintentionally screw over the player so that they need to start over from the beginning. Whereas if you can save whenever and wherever you want gameplay options are much more open. At that point it is the player's fault if he needs to replay hours of stuff because they weren't saving often enough.
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Zeus posted...

tbh, there should be some good reason for the change. I hate games where weak enemies are replaced by stronger ones with no story-explanation for it.

Also, it'd be neat if the rooms changed slightly while backtracking (ie, things may fall down -- maybe even blocking other passages (and requiring a tool to reopen them) -- the background looks a bit different, etc), provided that there's a storyline reason for it.

Agreed.
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