Board 8 > Finally watched Captain America Civil War

(+) Yeah! (+)

i know im late, but I'm finally in phase 3 of the MCU

thoughts that everyone has probably already had:
- that was really good
- black panther was super cool
- i liked how they quickly got spiderman involved
- wtf hot aunt may
- wtf young RDJ
- i didn't really like the way they handled zeno's motivation for causing all of this
- I'm also not a huge fan of the explosion of the building being the cause of all this fighting. i think the comic version's nuking of an entire school was something that would understandably garner mass public outrage. the movie just having another building falling apart doesn't seem like it should be enough, esp considering all of fucking new york was under alien attack and they wave that off with thor saying "welp I should go." oh and also some entire city was floating in the goddamn air for a bit
- 3rd olsen twin has gigantic boobies in that outfit. no wonder vision's aim was off
- everything about antman was amazing
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I thought Zeno was one of the best parts of the movie! Was very impressed with how they handled him in the end.

Also yes the cause for the outrage at the start was ridiculous.
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It wasn't just destroying a building, to be fair. Tensions were already high/public opinion low because of all the previous incidents (New York, Sokovia, etc.) and then not only did they screw up and cause collateral damage again, but it caused more foreign relations issues by killing Wakanda people.

The building thing was basically the last drop making the cup overflow
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StealThisSheen posted...

New York, Sokovia, etc.)

Let's remind everyone how many people died IN AN ALIEN INVASION IN ONE OF THE MOST POPULOUS CITIES IN THE UNITED STATES and then come back to me and tell me that the Marvel Universe public aren't the most coddled unappreciative douchebags in history. The people of Metropolis are way more reasonable than the MCU.
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i mean i get that

but it feels like the event didn't have enough impact. random lady coming up to tony and scolding him about some son made it seem like a bit of an afterthought. i think it would have been more effective if they actually showed the people in the building right before the explosion, or something. though with everything already going on in that intro, it probably would have been too busy.

that said, i still think they managed to pull off a lot of things in 2 hours really well. not sure i like it more than Winter Soldier, but it's definitely a top 3 for me.

I've got the following MCU left:
Thor 2 (meh)
Doctor Strange
Guardians 2
Spiderman Homecoming
Thor Ragnarok
Black Panther
Infinity War

and it sounds like most of those are all top tier marvel, so i'm excited. hopefully by the time my moviepass card comes (end of next weekish) i'll be able to watch infinity war without too much of an annoying crowd
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scarletspeed7 posted...

StealThisSheen posted...

New York, Sokovia, etc.)

Let's remind everyone how many people died IN AN ALIEN INVASION IN ONE OF THE MOST POPULOUS CITIES IN THE UNITED STATES and then come back to me and tell me that the Marvel Universe public aren't the most coddled unappreciative douchebags in history. The people of Metropolis are way more reasonable than the MCU.

i think this is basically it. i think you basically need the equivalent of "won't anybody think of the CHILDREN" to help make the sudden backlash more relatable.

That said, i did think vision pointing out that a lot of crazy stuff happening since Iron Man 1 suggesting a strong causation did help me buy back in to the narrative a little.

I still think a split-second scene of the students inside the building right before the explosion would have gone a long way to give that moment the impact it needed.
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Weakupedia posted...

scarletspeed7 posted...

StealThisSheen posted...

New York, Sokovia, etc.)

Let's remind everyone how many people died IN AN ALIEN INVASION IN ONE OF THE MOST POPULOUS CITIES IN THE UNITED STATES and then come back to me and tell me that the Marvel Universe public aren't the most coddled unappreciative douchebags in history. The people of Metropolis are way more reasonable than the MCU.

i think this is basically it. i think you basically need the equivalent of "won't anybody think of the CHILDREN" to help make the sudden backlash more relatable.

That said, i did think vision pointing out that a lot of crazy stuff happening since Iron Man 1 suggesting a strong causation did help me buy back in to the narrative a little.

I still think a split-second scene of the students inside the building right before the explosion would have gone a long way to give that moment the impact it needed.

Honestly, we don't need it on screen, but increasing the body count a little bit with each film would be valuable for this particular movie to have had the gravitas it deserved. In a way, it should have just come after Infinity War(s).
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This literally only matters to me but seeing Crossbones live-action fully was the best part of any Marvel movie.
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Snake5555555555 posted...

This literally only matters to me but seeing Crossbones live-action fully was the best part of any Marvel movie.

Would you believe the treatment of Crossbones caused me to dock points for this movie in my rating?
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You know I actually would because while I enjoyed seeing him nevertheless, I WAS hoping he would get a lot more screen time than he did, especially with how advertised he was. He could've been a great recurring villain for Cap especially as one of the few MCU villains in the whole universe to actually carry over to another movie.
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They probably got rid of him early to mess with all the "Cap's totally gonna die" people
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Yeah, i was surprised when he died so early. I was convinced he was going to be the main badguy for this entire thing

which leads me to have the thought:

things sure did fall perfectly into place with respect to the world's leaders tearing the avengers apart for zeno's crazy convoluted plan to show tony stark that video specifically in that supersoldier dungeon in russia
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Only thing I will say for it - Not quite as bad or stupid as the comic event that inspired it. But its close.
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Oh yeah Zemo's plan was incredibly complicated and made almost no sense

Still loved the movie but yeah
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what DO you like?
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Fond of the Captain America movie I mistakenly thought this topic was about when I clicked on it.
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XIII_rocks posted...

Oh yeah Zemo's plan was incredibly complicated and made almost no sense

Still loved the movie but yeah

yeah, i think that's the main reason winter soldier is still my favorite, followed by iron man 1. things don't fall apart when you stop to think about them for half a second.

still, civil war managed to do a really good job of giving everyone decent screentime and not getting lost in all of the moving parts
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Eddv posted...

Fond of the Captain America movie I mistakenly thought this topic was about when I clicked on it.

captain america 1 holds a special place in my heart because i like ww2 period pieces. it has pacing issues but is my second favorite phase one movie.

but uh

i feel like my topic title wasn't exactly long or confusing
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No one aaked the most important question.

Team Cap or Team Iron Man?
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Eddv posted...

Not quite as bad or stupid as the comic event that inspired it. But its close.

Actually the even is so much better because the idea of "Whose side are you on?" was way more interesting with, you know, more than 12 characters. And also lasting longer than 15 minutes in an airport parking lot.
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scarletspeed7 posted...

Eddv posted...

Not quite as bad or stupid as the comic event that inspired it. But its close.

Actually the even is so much better because the idea of "Whose side are you on?" was way more interesting with, you know, more than 12 characters. And also lasting longer than 15 minutes in an airport parking lot.

I mean, it would've been way more interesting, if they hadn't quickly gone "Except this side's very very bad."
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Caps Side is right, but Iron Mans side has almost all the good characters so I feel like it was way easier to root for his side.

HeroDelTiempo17 posted...

No one aaked the most important question.

Team Cap or Team Iron Man?

Well, Team Iron Man's POV literally makes no sense so...
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HeroDelTiempo17 posted...

No one aaked the most important question.

Team Cap or Team Iron Man?

the movie made it pretty clear that cap was in the right

which is another slight annoyance with this film, it never really felt like anyone other than cap and iron man were at odds with each other. and it wasn't really a fight between fundamental ideologies like the comics stressed

widow and hawkeye even have awkward friendly banter while kicking each other's asses. spidey and antman are just kinda along for the ride because why not. black widow was always on cap's side and it seems like they threw her in iron man's camp to even out the numbers and to use her as a plot device.

that said I realize this is a superhero movie
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There is no world in which either Cap or Iron Man are right in the movie. Hell, at least Zemo was intellectually honest.

SupremeZero posted...

I mean, it would've been way more interesting, if they hadn't quickly gone "Except this side's very very bad."

If you read it in its time, at a point where in real life there was a lot of fear and apprehension about, well, everything, Iron Man's point of view felt so much more realistic. And, quite honestly, Marvel heroes in Marvel comics are in fact a menace and should be shut down. Iron Man's way of doing it was wrong. Wanda Maximoff's way was right.
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scarletspeed7 posted...

And, quite honestly, Marvel heroes in Marvel comics are in fact a menace and should be shut down. Iron Man's way of doing it was wrong. Wanda Maximoff's way was right.

So what you're saying is...No More Marvel?
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HeroDelTiempo17 posted...

scarletspeed7 posted...

And, quite honestly, Marvel heroes in Marvel comics are in fact a menace and should be shut down. Iron Man's way of doing it was wrong. Wanda Maximoff's way was right.

So what you're saying is...No More Marvel?

#SquadronSupreme
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Snrkiko posted...

the movie made it pretty clear that cap was in the right

which is another slight annoyance with this film, it never really felt like anyone other than cap and iron man were at odds with each other. and it wasn't really a fight between fundamental ideologies like the comics stressed

widow and hawkeye even have awkward friendly banter while kicking each other's asses. spidey and antman are just kinda along for the ride because why not. black widow was always on cap's side and it seems like they threw her in iron man's camp to even out the numbers and to use her as a plot device.

that said I realize this is a superhero movie

I thought what Widow said in the initial argument scene made some sense - the stuff about "winning the public's trust back", and how she was trying to keep one hand on the wheel, to work with the UN rather than against them. I thought her being in agreement with the accords made sense for the pragmatic nature of her character and her switching sides to Cap - because ultimately she's more loyal to him than the accords - also made sense.

I don't completely disagree with you, I just think you're going a bit far - Ant Man and Spiderman added so much to the spectacle of that one fight scene, but their appearances are really contrived and that possibly detracts from the movie as a whole. Hawkeye was there because Team Cap needed someone to "rescue" Wanda and Wanda was only there because she was rescued. And Bucky for obvious reasons.

But I think Widow, Cap, Iron Man, Falcon, War Machine and Vision at least all laid out their positions pretty clearly. I really liked those scenes, both the one at the Avengers compound where they argue about the accords and the private one between Cap and Iron Man in the office, with the FDR pen.
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I saw this not long ago. It had been so long since the last Marvel movie I watched I was like oh Hawkeye isnt dead? He barely feels like hes even part of the MCU

XIII_rocks posted...

Snrkiko posted...

the movie made it pretty clear that cap was in the right

which is another slight annoyance with this film, it never really felt like anyone other than cap and iron man were at odds with each other. and it wasn't really a fight between fundamental ideologies like the comics stressed

widow and hawkeye even have awkward friendly banter while kicking each other's asses. spidey and antman are just kinda along for the ride because why not. black widow was always on cap's side and it seems like they threw her in iron man's camp to even out the numbers and to use her as a plot device.

that said I realize this is a superhero movie

I thought what Widow said in the initial argument scene made some sense - the stuff about "winning the public's trust back", and how she was trying to keep one hand on the wheel, to work with the UN rather than against them. I thought her being in agreement with the accords made sense for the pragmatic nature of her character and her switching sides to Cap - because ultimately she's more loyal to him than the accords - also made sense.

I don't completely disagree with you, I just think you're going a bit far - Ant Man and Spiderman added so much to the spectacle of that one fight scene, but their appearances are really contrived and that possibly detracts from the movie as a whole. Hawkeye was there because Team Cap needed someone to "rescue" Wanda and Wanda was only there because she was rescued. And Bucky for obvious reasons.

But I think Widow, Cap, Iron Man, Falcon, War Machine and Vision at least all laid out their positions pretty clearly. I really liked those scenes, both the one at the Avengers compound where they argue about the accords and the private one between Cap and Iron Man in the office, with the FDR pen.

you make a fair point about the supporting cast and widow in particular.

I think my lingering beef with this movie is that the scale and scope of whole thing feels really tight and limited compared not only with the original comic but even the movie Winter Soldier before it.

the source for the strife was a bombed building, not an entire elementary school.
the pool of heroes actually at odds with each other is about 3v3.
there was never any animosity between anyone until the very last 2v1 fight (which I admit wad amazing).
the bad guy in the end is some single dude pissed about his family being caught in collateral damage.

and also the film kind of lands too neatly with "cap was right all along" rather than maintain a moral ambiguity that i feel like the whole civil war idea is supposed to maintain
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Nah the main theme of civil war is that Tony's a douchebag
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Maybe it's just because the dust has settled by now, but there were plenty of wrong people taking Tony's side when the movie came out.
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it's one of 4 MCU movies I've seen and I was really impressed. It's a big reason I'm going to see Avengers 3.
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StealThisSheen posted...

Nah the main theme of civil war is that Tony's a douchebag

but he's trying to make amends!!
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I don't think it's that cut-and-dried that Tony was wrong.

Especially when the alternative was to "retire" as Ross put it. As I said before, Widow's arguments were the ones that made the most sense to me. Actively going against the literal UN isn't something you do lightly, and given that they blew up an entire country in AoU I can buy that there may be a need to take a step to win back the trust of the public.

I think the introduction of the accords itself smacks of politicians excessively meddling in shit, and I'd rather it wasn't there, but once it's out there and you have 150 countries telling you to sign it, and you say no to that? Isn't that a little arrogant?
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Team Tony makes sense unless you're trying to interpret the stances as hard line

Tony's side was less about "let's go all in with being regulated here" and more "let's show some flexibility and try to work with the world a bit in hopes it might limit our collateral damage and strengthen our image with the people" I mean he straight up smuggles an Iron Man arm or whatever when he's supposed to not be doing that so it's pretty clear he's not fully bending the knee ever. Black Widow is the one that more directly says this, but I think Tony was pretty consistently acting in this way himself.

Ultimately Tony ends up compromising a bit more towards Cap's side of things which can give the feel that maybe Cap was "right" but that's because Tony was never all in with the regulation by the letter to begin with moreso than saying "Tony was wrong" imo. All it is is Cap was more stubborn. We don't really get to explore Tony's side because that's not how the events of the movie pan out but I wouldn't say that makes him wrong either.
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Snrkiko posted...

the bad guy in the end is some single dude pissed about his family being caught in collateral damage.

I actually think this is good though

His plan might have been insanely contrived but his motivation and acknowledgement that he only wanted to make them destroy each other because he knew he couldn't kill them was excellent.
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And if it wasn't clear I'm still on Team Tony btw and don't think the movies make one of the sides unambiguously the one you're supposed to agree with-- in fact when the movie came out I seem to recall most people claiming the movie was better about this than the comics which more directly tried to say Captain America was right. Weird that we've got people claiming the opposite now.
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I'm Team Tony. Let's not all risk our necks protecting a brainwashed sleeper agent who himself admits that he shouldn't be unleashed on the world.
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I'm team hot aunt may
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Okay, I'm switching to that team.
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team tony here tbqh

cap was just more hardheaded and it was a "captain america" movie so they focused on him more, but tony had the right ideas

had it been "iron man: civil war" or even "avengers 2.5" i think things would be a lot less cap focused
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I like how Thor and Hulk had to be excluded because either could solo the rest of them. Cap is also probably the most boring of the main MCU Avengers. I dunno what it is that makes me feel that way. Its probably because youve got guys like Tony who are super eccentric and then youve got Captain America who just feels like a cardboard cutout in comparison

FFDragon posted...

team tony here tbqh

cap was just more hardheaded and it was a "captain america" movie so they focused on him more, but tony had the right ideas

had it been "iron man: civil war" or even "avengers 2.5" i think things would be a lot less cap focused

it's actually funny, i was def team tony in the comics because cap's ideals got to the point of making him act incredibly unreasonably
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swordz9 posted...

I like how Thor and Hulk had to be excluded because either could solo the rest of them

So could Vision, Scarlet Witch, and Tony if he used his small army of robot suits. Thor and Hulk's absence was just to keep things smaller scale, I think.
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There's also the problem of Thor and Hulk likely both going Team Cap if they had consistent stances with their personalities. Though I guess you could at a stretch make Banner go Team Tony if he's playing up the "waah waah Hulk destroyed so much stuff" card enough-- but I really don't think it makes a lot of sense for him to be trusting of government entities to solve that issue.

That and why would Thor particularly care about earth politics, I suppose.
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Lopen posted...

There's also the problem of Thor and Hulk likely both going Team Cap if they had consistent stances with their personalities. Though I guess you could at a stretch make Banner go Team Tony if he's playing up the "waah waah Hulk destroyed so much stuff" card enough-- but I really don't think it makes a lot of sense for him to be trusting of government entities to solve that issue.

That and why would Thor particularly care about earth politics, I suppose.

thor would have bailed and said wtf guys not my dealio
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Maybe you could have Thor vehemently support Team Tony's stance to the confusion of everyone and then surprise plot twist it's actually Loki because Thor has already long since peaced out of these puny Earth squabbles and Loki has nothing better to do than stir things up.
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I'm Team Jacob
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Grand Kirby posted...

I'm Team Jacob

WE HAVE TO GO BACK
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