Board 8 > Politics Containment Topic 170: The Title Doesn't Matter

(+) Yeah! (+)

Anyway, people should be able to choose not to get an ID (even if able to) and still vote.
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Forceful_Dragon posted...

All the voting talk had me reading this as de-vote and had me wondering why people were trying to UN vote for things :/

Have you SEEN who they voted into the white house?
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https://www-m.cnn.com/2018/04/25/us/golden-state-killer-development/index.html

They finally caught Ted Cruz
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Jakyl25 posted...

Corrik posted...

3. Everyone should have the right to vote and everyone does. The EXACT SAME equal opportunity.

Your opinion on felon disenfranchisement?

Think it is fair.

And judges rulings are generally political regarding it.

Obviously if your laws say you do not need to then you do not need to, but you SHOULD have to. It is such a common sense thing. You need IDs for a ton of things. Hell to restore a blizzard or steam account you need an ID. To own a gun. To buy items. To enter places.

That is like saying carding people to enter bars is illegal because it unfairly disenfranchises minorities and thus is racial discrimination. It is such nonsense.

The only reason democrats are so against it is nothing more than it costs them votes because their voters can't just get their heads out of their asses to vote.

It would be exactly the same thing if it were Republicans in reverse. It would be democrats arguing for it and Republicans arguing against it.

But the fact is... It should be that way regardless.
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Corrik posted...

Think it is fair.

Why? What good does it serve?
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Corrik posted...

And judges rulings are generally political regarding it.

[Citation needed]
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Corrik posted...

You act like being poor is a Democrat exclusive thing.

yeah, not every republican gets an ID either. this isn't a difficult concept.
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Forceful_Dragon posted...

Corrik posted...

It is not like any polling stations are treating democrats any different than Republicans.

No one is arguing that is the case.

If it was really a matter of "proving who you are when you vote" then any form of photo ID should be sufficient. Costco card? Boom, has picture on the back, feel free to vote. College ID card? Picture. Vote.

But no, even in places where they put a picture ID requirement they've decide it wasn't far enough and decided it had to be very specific picture IDs.

It is not good enough anywhere else. Try going to a medical clinic for substance abuse health and proving who you are with a damn Costco card. Try buying a gun with a college Id. Try entering a bar with your work badge.

Like, stop making excuses for literal laziness of your party to make people aware and care enough to get people IDs.
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Mr Lasastryke posted...

Corrik posted...

You act like being poor is a Democrat exclusive thing.

yeah, not every republican gets an ID either. this isn't a difficult concept.

And do you see me here saying oh woe that poor Republican didn't get his damn Id? It is their own fault.
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Corrik posted...

Forceful_Dragon posted...

Corrik posted...

It is not like any polling stations are treating democrats any different than Republicans.

No one is arguing that is the case.

If it was really a matter of "proving who you are when you vote" then any form of photo ID should be sufficient. Costco card? Boom, has picture on the back, feel free to vote. College ID card? Picture. Vote.

But no, even in places where they put a picture ID requirement they've decide it wasn't far enough and decided it had to be very specific picture IDs.

It is not good enough anywhere else. Try going to a medical clinic for substance abuse health and proving who you are with a damn Costco card. Try buying a gun with a college Id. Try entering a bar with your work badge.

Like, stop making excuses for literal laziness of your party to make people aware and care enough to get people IDs.

Voting should have a lower barrier to entry than any of those things
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Corrik posted...

That is like saying carding people to enter bars is illegal because it unfairly disenfranchises minorities and thus is racial discrimination. It is such nonsense.

they use dress codes for racial discrimination, carding is just for age discrimination

have you never been to a bar or something?
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Jakyl25 posted...

Corrik posted...

Think it is fair.

Why? What good does it serve?

It is debatable. Many felons in prisons do not even have adequate resources to make an informed decision. I mean, a felony should be a legit felony and not some bullshit labeled as a felony. But, if you commit a felony I could see the right being revoked til you serve your sentence.

You lose the right to possess guns for misdemeanors in plenty of states. So, there is precedent for the revoking of rights for convictions.
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is carding people to enter bars a US thing or something? i've been to plenty of bars and i've never had to show my ID to enter one. (i did have to show it to buy an alcocholic drink, sure.)
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Corrik posted...

It is not good enough anywhere else. Try going to a medical clinic for substance abuse health and proving who you are with a damn Costco card. Try buying a gun with a college Id. Try entering a bar with your work badge.

Like, stop making excuses for literal laziness of your party to make people aware and care enough to get people IDs.

Some people don't go to medical clinics because they can't afford to and don't have health insurance.

Some people don't own guns either because they are opposed to them, or simply can't afford to.

Some people aren't old enough to go to a bar (18, 19, 20) or don't care to spend 8 bucks on 2 ounces of alcohol in a building where they can't even hear the person next to them.

Why should these people have to provide their SSN and proof of address and STILL not be able to vote?

And why make the change in the first place? Some states went from NOT having the ID requirement to having it. Why make that change if not for a bullshit reason?
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Jakyl25 posted...

Corrik posted...

Forceful_Dragon posted...

Corrik posted...

It is not like any polling stations are treating democrats any different than Republicans.

No one is arguing that is the case.

If it was really a matter of "proving who you are when you vote" then any form of photo ID should be sufficient. Costco card? Boom, has picture on the back, feel free to vote. College ID card? Picture. Vote.

But no, even in places where they put a picture ID requirement they've decide it wasn't far enough and decided it had to be very specific picture IDs.

It is not good enough anywhere else. Try going to a medical clinic for substance abuse health and proving who you are with a damn Costco card. Try buying a gun with a college Id. Try entering a bar with your work badge.

Like, stop making excuses for literal laziness of your party to make people aware and care enough to get people IDs.

Voting should have a lower barrier to entry than any of those things

Is any of those things unfairly discriminating against minorities? Yes or no?

If it is not, then it is not doing so by requiring it to vote.

And, yes, closing dmvs for not reasonable reasons in specifically Democratic or Republicans areas just to try and make it harder for them is bullshit. I agree on that.
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Corrik posted...

It is debatable. Many felons in prisons do not even have adequate resources to make an informed decision. I mean, a felony should be a legit felony and not some bulls*** labeled as a felony. But, if you commit a felony I could see the right being revoked til you serve your sentence.

Im moreso talking about after theyve served their sentence. I agree that revoking the right during their sentence is ethically debateable
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Corrik posted...

Many felons in prisons do not even have adequate resources to make an informed decision.

okay this is just straight up hilarious

i mean if you wanna make knowledge a requirement for voting go ahead man
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Forceful_Dragon posted...

Corrik posted...

It is not good enough anywhere else. Try going to a medical clinic for substance abuse health and proving who you are with a damn Costco card. Try buying a gun with a college Id. Try entering a bar with your work badge.

Like, stop making excuses for literal laziness of your party to make people aware and care enough to get people IDs.

Some people don't go to medical clinics because they can't afford to and don't have health insurance.

Some people don't own guns either because they are opposed to them, or simply can't afford to.

Some people aren't old enough to go to a bar (18, 19, 20) or don't care to spend 8 bucks on 2 ounces of alcohol in a building where they can't even hear the person next to them.

Why should these people have to provide their SSN and proof of address and STILL not be able to vote?

And why make the change in the first place? Some states went from NOT having the ID requirement to having it. Why make that change if not for a bullshit reason?

1. So they chose not to.
2. So they chose not to.
3. So they chose not to or were not old enough.

4. I would actually be quite amendable to them not having to give their house of residency or their ssn. It is a redundancy with the Id, however an Id is NOT a redundancy the other way around. An ID is a better method.
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Mr Lasastryke posted...

is carding people to enter bars a US thing or something? i've been to plenty of bars and i've never had to show my ID to enter one. (i did have to show it to buy an alcocholic drink, sure.)

If the club is busy it makes more sense to card at the door (and mark the hands of people who are under drinking age)
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Corrik posted...

Is any of those things unfairly discriminating against minorities? Yes or no?

If it is not, then it is not doing so by requiring it to vote.

Like Kenri said, they have other ways of discriminating if they want to. Depends on the area.

My ultimate question to you on the issue is: why are (typically) Republicans trying to add voter ID laws to areas that already have no voter fraud? What are they gaining?
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CelesMyUserName posted...

Corrik posted...

Many felons in prisons do not even have adequate resources to make an informed decision.

okay this is just straight up hilarious

i mean if you wanna make knowledge a requirement for voting go ahead man

That is fair enough.

But, I mean, some felons do not have even the slightest inkling of possibility to knowing. Do you think a Maximum Security Serial Killer 30 years later knows who the fuck the nominees even are? It isn't just being unaware or misinformed or oblivious. It is not even having the opportunity to do so.

But, if that bothers you, it would still fall back on the right revoked due to criminal activity part of it.
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Corrik posted...

Do you think a Maximum Security Serial Killer 30 years later knows who the f*** the nominees even are?

...how awful do you think our prison are?

These people still get some TV and reading privileges
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Jakyl25 posted...

Corrik posted...

Is any of those things unfairly discriminating against minorities? Yes or no?

If it is not, then it is not doing so by requiring it to vote.

Like Kenri said, they have other ways of discriminating if they want to. Depends on the area.

My ultimate question to you on the issue is: why are (typically) Republicans trying to add voter ID laws to areas that already have no voter fraud? What are they gaining?

Republicans probably see an angle to exploit. Just like democrats see theirs to exploit at times.

Republicans probably think democrats are morons and can't figure out how to get IDs for some ungodly reason or so.

However, doing something for the wrong reasons doesn't make what they are pushing wrong.

I mean, if it didn't adversely affect the Democrat party, I am sure most of you would be like... "Yeah it is kind of common sense we should need IDs at polling stations. I mean, why wouldn't a person?"

Republicans and Democrats are always trying to get their angles. Neither is some Mother Teresa party. That's for sure.
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Jakyl25 posted...

Corrik posted...

Do you think a Maximum Security Serial Killer 30 years later knows who the f*** the nominees even are?

...how awful do you think our prison are?

These people still get some TV and reading privileges

not only that, but again - lack of information has no bearing on anybody's voting rights

I'm not terrified about people voting for what they don't know because that's already the current state of voting. Not to mention that having the right doesn't mean it's a forced right, if a felon doesn't know anything who's to say they'll even care to vote on their own?

The right to vote should focus on the people who *should* vote that can't, not the ones who "shouldn't" vote but can.
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Jakyl25 posted...

Mr Lasastryke posted...

is carding people to enter bars a US thing or something? i've been to plenty of bars and i've never had to show my ID to enter one. (i did have to show it to buy an alcocholic drink, sure.)

If the club is busy it makes more sense to card at the door (and mark the hands of people who are under drinking age)

Depends on your state. Many (I'd venture most) require carding for anyone who looks reasonably younger than a certain age. Some require anyone at all to be carded to ensure proper age.

For example.

Indiana was CHANGED from everyone must be carded to anyone who doesn't look reasonably older than 40 years old.

On top of that, they will send agents around who will try to buy alcohol under age (some store and some state agents) who if you do not follow this will result in your termination (if a store failed check) or your establishment being fined or even shut down (if a state agent).

This also is for establishments who do not allow people under the age of 21 in them. Which is quite a few after certain times. Thus, you need an ID to show them upon entry or at the door.
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Corrik posted...

Republicans probably see an angle to exploit. Just like democrats see theirs to exploit at times.

Republicans probably think democrats are morons and can't figure out how to get IDs for some ungodly reason or so.

The idea that you essentially understand with why theyre doing it but still think its a good thing is a hilarious blindspot

Corrik posted...

On top of that, they will send agents around who will try to buy alcohol under age (some store and some state agents) who if you do not follow this will result in your termination (if a store failed check) or your establishment being fined or even shut down (if a state agent).

In our state they just take away your liquor license for X amount of time
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I love how Corriks default is Democrats are lazy morons even though he admits that the tactic of closing DMVs in heavily democratic areas (thus making the process of obtaining an ID more difficult for those voters) is bullshit. Of course, he quantifies it with the both sides bullshit to imply Democrats are doing the same thing (which they arent).
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being concerned about voter fraud as opposed to voter suppression is one of those weird things

in an ideal world, people could look at both issues, examine real data to determine the level of threat of both, and try to find rational solutions to them

one can certainly envision a reality where voter fraud is a huge problem that eclipses all others. one can also envision a reality where voter suppression is a huge problem that eclipses all others.

however, for 'some mysterious reason' the cheerleaders of the republican party have decided, sans evidence, voter fraud is the important one. and democrats vice versa

like obviously you can bring up knee-jerk arguments for either side ("don't you think ILLEGAL VOTING is BAD???", "don't you think denying minorities the vote is BAD???") but that's not how things should be done

data, data, data
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banananor posted...

one can certainly envision a reality where voter fraud is a huge problem that eclipses all others.

Oh for sure. If fraud was some huge issue I would understand the case to get stricter, even if I might not agree. Theres a benefit/detriment debate.

Correct me if Im wrong though, but the amount of fraud actually discovered is almost statistically 0.

EDIT: Its almost certainly not sans evidence that people against Voter IDs base their opinion on
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I think voter fraud is a lie the Republicans make up to justify discriminatory ID laws. Theres no proof of it being an actual problem, and even if it WAS, Republicans seem averse to actually solving it in a manner that doesnt conveniently disenfranchise legal voters. If a Republican proposed a bill that created a nationwide voter ID system that provides every citizen with ID for free, I would champion that shit, because it would literally solve both problems.

But thats not what we get. Instead we get Republican state governments that implement laws designed specifically to disenfranchise Democratic voters, allowing them to amass more unearned power, particularly in swing states.
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Voting fraud is a potentially huge risk, it's just that republicans chose to go after a type that doesn't exist that mostly persecutes brown people and democrats in general

Paratroopa1 posted...

Voting fraud is a potentially huge risk, it's just that republicans chose to go after a type that doesn't exist that mostly persecutes brown people and democrats in general

To clarify - our voter rolls are hackable as fuck

Jakyl25 posted...

banananor posted...

one can certainly envision a reality where voter fraud is a huge problem that eclipses all others.

Oh for sure. If fraud was some huge issue I would understand the case to get stricter, even if I might not agree. Theres a benefit/detriment debate.

Correct me if Im wrong though, but the amount of fraud actually discovered is almost statistically 0.

EDIT: Its almost certainly not sans evidence that people against Voter IDs base their opinion on

It is hard to prove when fraud actually exists though also. For example, I could have easily have walked in and voted as my cousins or such if I wished to after I moved out of the area to where I live now. Granted it is one vote, but it is only something that is going to be found out if someone personally knows who I or them am, or if that person goes to vote later on.

This possibility shouldn't even exist. Voter fraud should be literally so complicated as government grade fake IDs are to produce. And have ridiculous stiff penalties for it.
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Corrik posted...

It is hard to prove when fraud actually exists though also. For example, I could have easily have walked in and voted as my cousins or such if I wished to after I moved out of the area to where I live now. Granted it is one vote, but it is only something that is going to be found out if someone personally knows who I or them am, or if that person goes to vote later on.

How did we ever have fair elections before drivers licenses?
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I do find it is funny every time a celebrity states something in favor of trump they are getting such backlash that they usually 180 on it.

Kanye, Shania Twain, Chapelle, etc.
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Jakyl25 posted...

Corrik posted...

It is hard to prove when fraud actually exists though also. For example, I could have easily have walked in and voted as my cousins or such if I wished to after I moved out of the area to where I live now. Granted it is one vote, but it is only something that is going to be found out if someone personally knows who I or them am, or if that person goes to vote later on.

How did we ever have fair elections before drivers licenses?

The party sitting here complaining that the election was influenced and stolen due to Russian interference sitting here talking about a common sense thing in regards to voting not being necessary due to elections supposedly being fair already?

What.
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Respond to my post, Corrik. If voter ID is such a common sense issue and voter fraud is such a real threat, then why, instead of pushing for nationwide voter IDs that would be easily and freely accessible to all citizens, do Republican-controlled state governments push for restrictive ID laws that allow them to control what kind of IDs (the kinds Republicans have and Democrats dont) are acceptable, and vote to close locations that would specifically allow Democratic voters to easily obtain IDs?
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Espeon posted...

Respond to my post, Corrik. If voter ID is such a common sense issue and voter fraud is such a real threat, then why, instead of pushing for nationwide voter IDs that would be easily and freely accessible to all citizens, do Republican-controlled state governments push for restrictive ID laws that allow them to control what kind of IDs (the kinds Republicans have and Democrats dont) are acceptable, and vote to close locations that would specifically allow Democratic voters to easily obtain IDs?

Can they push for Nationwide Voter IDs? If they can, they should.
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We literally have an amendment to the constitution about this shit guys.

No poll taxes. No barriers to entry for your own right to vote.

I am amazed they can even strip the right to vote from felons.

Its just that clear. Everyone gets to vote. Period.
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Corrik posted...

The party sitting here complaining that the election was influenced and stolen due to Russian interference sitting here talking about a common sense thing in regards to voting not being necessary due to elections supposedly being fair already?

What.

I am not that party and I dont complain that the election was stolen
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Corrik posted...

Espeon posted...

Respond to my post, Corrik. If voter ID is such a common sense issue and voter fraud is such a real threat, then why, instead of pushing for nationwide voter IDs that would be easily and freely accessible to all citizens, do Republican-controlled state governments push for restrictive ID laws that allow them to control what kind of IDs (the kinds Republicans have and Democrats dont) are acceptable, and vote to close locations that would specifically allow Democratic voters to easily obtain IDs?

Can they push for Nationwide Voter IDs? If they can, they should.

If Republicans, who hold the legislative majority and the executive branch of our nation, are so concerned about voter fraud, why ARENT they implementing this solution?
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Felon disenfranchisement is to me strictly unconstitutional, period, and it's absolutely disgusting

election night should just be a 24 hour DEATHMATCH
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Paratroopa1 posted...

Felon disenfranchisement is to me strictly unconstitutional, period, and it's absolutely disgusting

Agreed 100%
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Eddv posted...

We literally have an amendment to the constitution about this shit guys.

No poll taxes. No barriers to entry for your own right to vote.

I am amazed they can even strip the right to vote from felons.

Its just that clear. Everyone gets to vote. Period.

Which one is that again? As far as I was aware, the Constitution only protects against voter discrimination based on race, gender, or age 18+

I was kinda worried that was the biggest hole in my argument, that the Constitution doesnt actually GRANT anyone the right to vote, but rather just gives specific reasons why you cant deny them
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Eddv posted...

We literally have an amendment to the constitution about this shit guys.

No poll taxes. No barriers to entry for your own right to vote.

I am amazed they can even strip the right to vote from felons.

Its just that clear. Everyone gets to vote. Period.

There is an amendment for the right to bear arms. Are you arguing for felons to have guns? Mentally sick? Etc?

That is what it comes down to with that. Be consistent on that.

I assume there is some reason that it isn't pushed Nationwide. I am sure Republicans would like to.
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https://www.usatoday.com/story/opinion/2018/01/15/national-id-card-voter-registration-system-we-could-love-michael-mcdonald-column/1025903001/

Luke Messer introduced a National Voter ID law legislation. I assume it died.
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Corrik posted...

Eddv posted...

We literally have an amendment to the constitution about this shit guys.

No poll taxes. No barriers to entry for your own right to vote.

I am amazed they can even strip the right to vote from felons.

Its just that clear. Everyone gets to vote. Period.

There is an amendment for the right to bear arms. Are you arguing for felons to have guns? Mentally sick? Etc?

Heres an interesting point I realize based on this attempt at a counter argument

The second amendment protects against infringement of KEEPING and BEARING arms, but says nothing about BUYING or CREATING

If you somehow craft your own gun (say with a 3D printer), are you mandated to register it?
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24, Poll tax amendment.

On the face of it, that sounds like it just covers being asked to pay money to vote but it was intended to cover, and by jurisprudence does cover, all of the other Jim Crow methods of disenfranchisement such as literacy tests and according to recent rulings many of these ID laws as well.
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Jakyl25 posted...

Corrik posted...

Eddv posted...

We literally have an amendment to the constitution about this shit guys.

No poll taxes. No barriers to entry for your own right to vote.

I am amazed they can even strip the right to vote from felons.

Its just that clear. Everyone gets to vote. Period.

There is an amendment for the right to bear arms. Are you arguing for felons to have guns? Mentally sick? Etc?

Heres an interesting point I realize based on this attempt at a counter argument

The second amendment protects against infringement of KEEPING and BEARING arms, but says nothing about BUYING or CREATING

If you somehow craft your own gun (say with a 3D printer), are you mandated to register it?

Lol I dunno. If you 3d print a home do you have to pay property taxes? Lol
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