Board 8 > Anime and Manga Topic 181: Fate's Last Encore

(+) Yeah! (+)

swordz9 posted...

The key difference between them is Fairy Tail doesnt have a real goal. Theres nothing really to work towards so every arc can be its own adventure.

It's amazing to me that you consider this a positive.
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LapisLazuli posted...

swordz9 posted...

The key difference between them is Fairy Tail doesnt have a real goal. Theres nothing really to work towards so every arc can be its own adventure.

It's amazing to me that you consider this a positive.

Take away find the One Piece and this is literally how your favorite (or former favorite?) is...

LapisLazuli posted...

A cheap snack seems like an OK analogy, but I might say it's like a big hotpot that doesn't actually have anything in it.

How much of Fairy Tail did you read?
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I think the Itachi plotline is an example of something that did payoff well, at least around the actual Sasuke fight. His fake reasons for setting up the fight and then the twist after that reveals him to be tragic (and the immediate effect it has on Sasuke) is like 10/10 material in a vacuum. The double shot of him crying and then switching his revenge to the Leaf was just perfect.

You're right that it gets muddled. I don't like Itachi master of a 1000 plans orchestrating things beyond his death for the good guys, there's a lot of reasons Sasuke is bad that cheapens his whole arc, and yeah the main theme of hard work paying off gets a big LOL, but the destination doesn't ruin the journey imo. Jiraiya/Pain arc was also great basically up until Naruto discovers his ability to talk his way out of his problems (which would have been fine if it was just used here tbh).

But still man FT has Raven Tail. The son of the guild master, father of badass Laxus, who turned evil for ???? reasons, introduced hundreds of chapters before entering the main story...and then the whole guild gets fodderized in the middle of an arc much bigger than them. I can't even begin to express how that could be called writing.
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swordz9 posted...

LapisLazuli posted...

swordz9 posted...

The key difference between them is Fairy Tail doesnt have a real goal. Theres nothing really to work towards so every arc can be its own adventure.

It's amazing to me that you consider this a positive.

Take away find the One Piece and this is literally how your favorite (or former favorite?) is...

I agree I don't think a shonen story needs a singular goal. Dragon Ball is one of the best still after all.
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Mac Arrowny posted...

LapisLazuli posted...

A cheap snack seems like an OK analogy, but I might say it's like a big hotpot that doesn't actually have anything in it.

How much of Fairy Tail did you read?

I watched up until the the alternate universe with evil Fairy Tail, and read until the end of that arc. I also saw most of some tournament arc while my roommate was watching it.
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pjbasis posted...

But still man FT has Raven Tail. The son of the guild master, father of badass Laxus, who turned evil for ???? reasons, introduced hundreds of chapters before entering the main story...and then the whole guild gets fodderized in the middle of an arc much bigger than them. I can't even begin to express how that could be called writing.

Itachi, brother of the child badass Sasuke, who is later revealed to be secretly not evil for ??? reasons, introduced (text only) hundreds of chapters before entering the main story...and then literally gives up his only real fight to make the 2nd worst main character even worse and set him on a path where he does awful shit and ultimately never has to pay for any of his crimes or attempted murders. I cant even express how that could begin to be called writing.

Rewriting my sentence is kind of pointless.

swordz9 posted...

who is later revealed to be secretly not evil for ??? reasons

Like, what's the point of this? Itachi was introduced to us as evil for the deed that he did, which mattered as soon it was mentioned, because it justified Sasuke's entire premise. You can't have Sasuke being a guy that wants revenge on his brother...unless you introduce his brother. The fact that there was a twist later that he wasn't entirely evil doesn't change that. We never get an explanation for why Ivan turned evil, even though Makarov is a really good guy! How does a father raise an evil son? You can't equate these.

swordz9 posted...

2nd worst main character even worse and set him on a path where he does awful shit and ultimately never has to pay for any of his crimes or attempted murders.

You're trying to compare apples and oranges. Sasuke is a main character. I agree that he wasn't handled correctly, but it has nothing to do with Itachi or Ivan. Ivan's role in the story had zero effect on anything, Itachi and Sasuke...obviously have huge impacts.

swordz9 posted...

and then literally gives up his only real fight

Did he give up? I thought he straight up lost. Either way, the main parallel I'm making is that Ivan amounted to literally nothing. A far worse crime imo. Don't try this lazy way of discussion with me. If you really wanna just say "opinions are opinions" be my guest. But if you wanna seriously defend your opinions (which is fine and good) then just do it.
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the difference between Naruto and FT is that Naruto had great world building with established shounen power levels so new characters can be slotted into positions on the totem and fights are entertaining because of that clarity

FT boils down to

"lol NAKAMA PUNCH"
"lol cuz she's Erza"
"I believe in my NAKAMA"
"lol because he's Laxus"
"lol because he's Shanks"
"hey big fight happened let's just have everyone in the guild together for a group photo look at how close we are!"
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Ivan was never even a major character to begin with though. He wasnt mentioned at all for a long time and then didnt come back for a while either. I never even felt like Raven Tail was super hyped up. They were just one of many big guilds the group would run into one day and ultimately they got the shortest straw of them by not mattering in the slightest.

Im pretty sure Itachi did give up which was why he did that forehead flick playing around thing. Probably doesnt matter since he wasnt gonna be around much longer after that fight anyways if I recall. Also Sasuke doing a complete 180 had EVERYTHING to do with Itachis secret reveal. Had that never existed he wouldve just been a guy who finally got revenge and then had to find new meaning to life instead of a guy who decided to go all Hitler

he found out his reason for revenge was a lie so he attempts to mend bridges

I mean do you really think his redemption wasn't going to happen? or did you want him to die for the things he did thus denying the main character's entire point which was to redeem Sasuke
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Ultimately our argument is stupid because neither series has great writing. One never really tried and the other tried way too hard and failed. Ill take super simplistic over overly ambitious resulting in disaster any day though. The result was I enjoyed Fairy Tail even though it never had a deep engaging plot and I ended up hating Naruto so much I quit reading it a few years before it ended.

swordz9 posted...

Also Sasuke doing a complete 180 had EVERYTHING to do with Itachis secret reveal. Had that never existed he wouldve just been a guy who finally got revenge and then had to find new meaning to life instead of a guy who decided to go all Hitler

This misses the entire point of Sasuke's character.

Getting revenge was never supposed to be something we celebrated as a viewer. His response to early childhood trauma was to hold onto it and channel it into a goal he could keep chasing. When he finally "acheived" it, it made complete sense that he actually had no way to live his life besides continually chasing revenge. The leaf being a more nebulous entity than individual makes it even more vague and better. And it was clearly planned from the start. Naruto didn't really make villains who went insane for no reason. A common theme in all of it was that the spoils of war created the villains of tomorrow to continue the cycle of carnage yadda yadda. The secret reveal had to happen that way, it doesn't make sense for the author to set up Itachi just to die and just...clean up Sasuke.

AND YES the real problem with Sasuke's character is that he did end up getting a clean ending. It never felt deserved, he never really felt like he got past his trauma. It's a really big failure, and why Naruto won't be gracing my top lists any time soon. But 40+ good volumes out of 70 ain't bad.
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GranzonEx posted...

he found out his reason for revenge was a lie so he attempts to mend bridges

I mean do you really think his redemption wasn't going to happen? or did you want him to die for the things he did thus denying the main character's entire point which was to redeem Sasuke

I mean that didnt USED to be the main characters entire point. It only became that when the series went all to shit...Sasuke absolutely deserved to die though.

Yeah, the Chuunin exam arcs were terrific and it's easy to see why Gaara got over so huge.

Akatsuki's initial introduction was also good, because it showed a darker side of the Ninja world that wasn't over the top the way Zabusa/Orochimaru were. They felt a lot more cold blooded and calculating, while Orochimaru was more or less an agent of chaos trying to build his own empire.

Post-Timeskip, I think Naruto had good world building, but too many characters and in the end, it got hard to identify with them since not many got much screentime.
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swordz9 posted...

Ultimately our argument is stupid because neither series has great writing. One never really tried and the other tried way too hard and failed. Ill take super simplistic over overly ambitious resulting in disaster any day though. The result was I enjoyed Fairy Tail even though it never had a deep engaging plot and I ended up hating Naruto so much I quit reading it a few years before it ended.

I can get behind this. Not telling you you have to like one more than the other. But I'm probably the opposite where I'll really appreciate something that is constructed intricately and flawed than something that is too simple to be enjoyable.
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Naruto was a solid 9/10 through the Pain arc. After that, hoo boy.

That's my two cents.
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I was never one of those people that cared about Naruto's extended cast in the first place.

All of Naruto's peers not being important in Part II is a big "who cares" to me. They served their function in the chuunin exam as rivals, and some of them got some nifty fights at the end against those sounds guys, but yeah could take em or leave em.
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Now who here has true patrician taste and placed Sakigake Otokojuku in their all time top 15 from that magazine.

Oh and more people need to read Sexy Commando Gaiden.
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What's the point of arguing about bad shounen, honestly.

Both these series are chump change compared to even Gash Bell. Hell, I'd take The Law of Ueki.
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On a different note I also think Fairy Tail DECLINED too.

It didn't really start out as stupid. The arcs were small and simple, and it was actually pretty charming and good at them. There was also a natural escalation until the Jellal/Tower of Heaven arc, and then it started going downhill when the story was supposed to enter its more hype moments, but it couldn't really capture any greater sense of urgency.
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I mean Narutos entire point used to be a hardworking loser trying to gain acknowledgment and he turned into somebody completely obsessed with trying to save his friend (how you can call a guy who tried to kill you multiple times and others you cared about friend is beyond me) no matter the cost to himself be it endangering his own life or groveling in tears begging others not to kill him. Along the way hes revealed to basically be ninja Jesus completing the destruction of his entire character

LapisLazuli posted...

Both these series are chump change compared to even Gash Bell. Hell, I'd take The Law of Ueki.

man you think Fairy Tail looks bad tho
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Law of Ueki has some pretty generic characters, yeah. No denying that.

Love how Gash Bell looks though!

The issue is that Fairy Tail characters all look like examples from a "How to Draw Manga" book.
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I remember seeing some of Gash Bell. I vaguely recall it anyways, but I never finished it I think. Actually Im not even entirely sure the English airing did finish, but I could be wrong.

pjbasis posted...

AND YES the real problem with Sasuke's character is that he did end up getting a clean ending. It never felt deserved, he never really felt like he got past his trauma. It's a really big failure, and why Naruto won't be gracing my top lists any time soon. But 40+ good volumes out of 70 ain't bad.

I thought he got past it after his Danzou fight

it's just the other villages had a boner for him and wanted to kill him

the whole thing fell apart during the Edo Tensei arc though, I enjoyed all the fanservice but the whole inheriting power fetish got boring real fast
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LapisLazuli posted...

Law of Ueki has some pretty generic characters, yeah. No denying that.

Love how Gash Bell looks though!

The issue is that Fairy Tail characters all look like examples from a "How to Draw Manga" book.

I just dont see this. What makes them look so generic to you? They all stand out as much as any other main shounen characters to me

swordz9 posted...

I remember seeing some of Gash Bell. I vaguely recall it anyways, but I never finished it I think. Actually Im not even entirely sure the English airing did finish, but I could be wrong.

Gash Bell got it worse than One Piece did, so the english airing doesn't really count, lol.
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swordz9 posted...

I mean Narutos entire point used to be a hardworking loser trying to gain acknowledgment and he turned into somebody completely obsessed with trying to save his friend (how you can call a guy who tried to kill you multiple times and others you cared about friend is beyond me) no matter the cost to himself be it endangering his own life or groveling in tears begging others not to kill him. Along the way hes revealed to basically be ninja Jesus completing the destruction of his entire character

It just seems like these things are huge problems with you when they're really kind of smaller things in the grand scheme. Naruto's central premise becomes the guy who wants to break the cycle of war for a longer portion of the series than "hard work" ever was. The last time that was relevant was probably when he beat Neji. It obviously makes sense that he would want to "heal" even Sasuke. It's like saying Kenshin should have killed that bad guy already!
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swordz9 posted...

LapisLazuli posted...

Law of Ueki has some pretty generic characters, yeah. No denying that.

Love how Gash Bell looks though!

The issue is that Fairy Tail characters all look like examples from a "How to Draw Manga" book.

I just dont see this. What makes them look so generic to you? They all stand out as much as any other main shounen characters to me

Don't really know what to say to this because it just seems obvious to me, nothing about how those characters look has any amount of would put in it to me. Hardcore sameface is certainly a factor.
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FT looks clean and there's nothing wrong with that. Are you going to complain about slice of life anime #598367489 having generic looking characters too?

Naruto's art looked really rough in the first half.

Unique =/= good
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GranzonEx posted...

I thought he got past it after his Danzou fight

Speaking of another fantastic fight. Sasuke got a lot of good fights.

Didn't he still almost kill Sakura/Karin after this?
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That covers like the entire pre-time skip though...the fact you learn Naruto was secretly probably the greatest prodigy of all time just makes all that stuff in the beginning he preached seemed terrible.

Not saying you're wrong. Hard work was definitely a theme, in the early chapters you could say it's the premise of his character.

But he does adopt other premises. He turns out to be Destiny McFated Hero, but whatever I liked seeing all his SSJ forms.
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pjbasis posted...

GranzonEx posted...

I thought he got past it after his Danzou fight

Didn't he still almost kill Sakura/Karin after this?

yea to distance himself from Team 7
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GranzonEx posted...

FT looks clean and there's nothing wrong with that. Are you going to complain about slice of life anime #598367489 having generic looking characters too?

Naruto's art looked really rough in the first half.

Unique =/= good

Unique does not equal good by default no. But the thing is....yes, I am going to complain. I find it very difficult to connect to generic looking characters no matter how good the writing is. If A Place Further than the Universe was the same show but looked like Fairy Tail I would not be watching it.

I'm always going to have that inherent bias. There are plenty of shows I have not tried or dropped that are well regarded because the character designs didn't do it for me.
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Also I don't know why that's surprising coming from me when I've said on many occasions that aesthetics my #1 most important feature when I rate anime. I care a lot about how things look, more than writing. Obviously a balance is needed, but how I weight those is clear.
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I just realized thats kinda funny because he loves Monogatari too and almost all the girls look identical in that at one point

I'll say that the Fairy Tail anime is definitely not the best looking anime, but the FT manga is really well drawn for a weekly.
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swordz9 posted...

I just realized thats kinda funny because he loves Monogatari too and almost all the girls look identical in that at one point

.....wow, what? That's not even something I could imagine being someone's opinion.
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GranzonEx posted...

yea to distance himself from Team 7

I mean he like literally tried to kill them though right? When I say get over his trauma I feel like that moment that lets you become a good guy again. Even at the endgame they have a final fight because he's still not willing to do that.
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swordz9 posted...

the fact you learn Naruto was secretly probably the greatest prodigy of all time just makes all that stuff in the beginning he preached seemed terrible.

This is actually what makes that series hilarious.
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swordz9 posted...

I just realized thats kinda funny because he loves Monogatari too and almost all the girls look identical in that at one point

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swordz9 posted...

I just realized thats kinda funny because he loves Monogatari too and almost all the girls look identical in that at one point

yea pretty much

he has a raging boner for Re:creators and that show looks like cookie cutter generic anime #89678945679
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pjbasis posted...

GranzonEx posted...

yea to distance himself from Team 7

I mean he like literally tried to kill them though right? When I say get over his trauma I feel like that moment that lets you become a good guy again. Even at the endgame they have a final fight because he's still not willing to do that.

he's a tsundere

irony being he's the best tsundere in Team 7
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GranzonEx posted...

swordz9 posted...

I just realized thats kinda funny because he loves Monogatari too and almost all the girls look identical in that at one point

yea pretty much

he has a raging boner for Re:creators and that show looks like cookie cutter generic anime #89678945679

This is also absurd to me. I mean, if you're arguing that the characters look like generic entries in their genre....I think that's not the case per re, but that is the whole POINT. As a result, though, the actual cast is a huge mixture of different characters and archetypes.

I guess people just have different views on what they consider "generic".
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well anyway I don't think I posted about a place further than the universe, it's good.

also watched three episodes of school babysitters. I thought the first episode was pretty good but I just found 2 and 3 boring.
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Whats so crazy about what I said? I thought the girls looked alike on purpose as part of the show being clever poking fun at harems people always go on about. Aside from like 2-3 of them they basically all have the same hair color tone and even cut their hair short in similar styles. That one blue weird loli probably stands out the most of all the girls and I dont even care about her design

LapisLazuli posted...

GranzonEx posted...

swordz9 posted...

I just realized thats kinda funny because he loves Monogatari too and almost all the girls look identical in that at one point

yea pretty much

he has a raging boner for Re:creators and that show looks like cookie cutter generic anime #89678945679

This is also absurd to me. I mean, if you're arguing that the characters look like generic entries in their genre....I think that's not the case per re, but that is the whole POINT. As a result, though, the actual cast is a huge mixture of different characters and archetypes.

I guess people just have different views on what they consider "generic".

I think we know what generic looks like

you're the only one saying generic is a negative in a medium with hundreds of thousands of entries
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Yes, I am!
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