Board 8 > Politics Containment Topic 120: A Nationally Lampooned Vacation

(+) Yeah! (+)

Eddv posted...

FFDragon posted...

King George III did nothing wrong.

He really didn't.

The American Revolution rests on a lot of lies and propaganda that arent strictly true.

Of course. My point was that "the law is the law is the law" is intellectually lazy and incredibly ignorant of American history, which has been constantly defined by protesting against the law.
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Bearing in mind that in Nazi Germany, being Jewish/Gay/Romani was illegal, killing any of the aforementioned groups was legal.

So remind me how laws should be the sole basis of morality again?
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Jakyl25 posted...

Here's another fun hypothetical for Corrik

Would the slaves have been right to rebel against their owners, to the point of violence if necessary?

Or should they have just waited for government to sort it out?

I think the slaves rebelling was a fair choice and one I woild have probably made if I was under a bad owner.

Rebelling was basically choosing death. And, I think there are many scenarios where I would prefer death over potential situations of being subservient.

Many slave populations in the past rebelled. Spartacus. The jews in Egypt. Not uncommon and certainly understandable.
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Oh man, I literally got modded for calling Corrik out on thinking he was worthy of being sole arbiter of deciding who deserves to live
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Corrik posted...

Jakyl25 posted...

Here's another fun hypothetical for Corrik

Would the slaves have been right to rebel against their owners, to the point of violence if necessary?

Or should they have just waited for government to sort it out?

I think the slaves rebelling was a fair choice and one I woild have probably made if I was under a bad owner.

Rebelling was basically choosing death. And, I think there are many scenarios where I would prefer death over potential situations of being subservient.

Many slave populations in the past rebelled. Spartacus. The jews in Egypt. Not uncommon and certainly understandable.

But illegal. And by your stances, therefore immoral.
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Corrik posted...

What I said was that the jobs were under the table or small business most likely. And, I said if the guy who is saying he was a kmary manager is saying that full time kmart employees do not get insurance then he was lying. He admitted full time did and said he was referring to employees in general. Which I acknowledged in my initial post that many companies try to limit you to like 1 hour below full time precisely for the reason to not give you coverage.

i looked this up in my politics containment topic archive. a few clarifications:

1) the kmart manager in question was SEP.
2) the bold part is a bullshit fabrication by corrik. SEP said that kmart employees don't get insurance, corrik said "if you're talking about full time employees you're lying" and SEP never responded to him. that was it. so SEP never "admitted full time employees did" or "said he was referring to employees in general."
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Mr Lasastryke posted...

Corrik posted...

What I said was that the jobs were under the table or small business most likely. And, I said if the guy who is saying he was a kmary manager is saying that full time kmart employees do not get insurance then he was lying. He admitted full time did and said he was referring to employees in general. Which I acknowledged in my initial post that many companies try to limit you to like 1 hour below full time precisely for the reason to not give you coverage.

i looked this up in my politics containment topic archive. a few clarifications:

1) the kmart manager in question was SEP.
2) the bold part is a bullshit fabrication by corrik. SEP said that kmart employees don't get insurance, corrik said "if you're talking about full time employees you're lying" and SEP never responded to him. that was it. so SEP never "admitted full time employees did" or "said he was referring to employees in general."

He does later on. I suggest you keep looking.
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Regaro posted...

Oh man, I literally got modded for calling Corrik out on thinking he was worthy of being sole arbiter of deciding who deserves to live

Probably got modded for calling me a piece of shit. Why spin it? Lol. Just stop with all the nonsense spinning here.
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Corrik posted...

He does later on. I suggest you keep looking.

no, he doesn't. SEP himself also said so in a later politics contaiment topic:

It was me, and I never replied to you because you didn't reply until like, several hours later.

Nice to see that you can make stuff up, though.

i guess you're accusing him of being a liar when it comes to this?
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Peace___Frog posted...

Corrik posted...

Jakyl25 posted...

Here's another fun hypothetical for Corrik

Would the slaves have been right to rebel against their owners, to the point of violence if necessary?

Or should they have just waited for government to sort it out?

I think the slaves rebelling was a fair choice and one I woild have probably made if I was under a bad owner.

Rebelling was basically choosing death. And, I think there are many scenarios where I would prefer death over potential situations of being subservient.

Many slave populations in the past rebelled. Spartacus. The jews in Egypt. Not uncommon and certainly understandable.

But illegal. And by your stances, therefore immoral.

Think we are applying apples to green apples here. Yeah, same idea, but being applied in ways I necessarily would not agree upon.
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Mr Lasastryke posted...

Corrik posted...

He does later on. I suggest you keep looking.

no, he doesn't. SEP himself also said so in a later politics contaiment topic:

It was me, and I never replied to you because you didn't reply until like, several hours later.

Nice to see that you can make stuff up, though.

i guess you're accusing him of being a liar when it comes to this?

I am not accusing anyone of anything. Just read the topics. It comes back up later on. You all want so deep in your heart to try and toss labels or attribute things to me where they don't apply to me.
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You have straight up put words in my mouth multiple times. Please stop your high horse act.
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Corrik posted...

Just read the topics. It comes back up later on.

for christ's sake, i DID read the topics and it DIDN'T come back up later on. you think i'm talking out of my ass here without actually reading the topics?

we have several people here saying you're full of shit - including one who has all the topics readily available and can easily verify that you're full of shit - and you just keep going "NOPE HE ADMITTED FULL TIME EMPLOYEES GET INSURANCE CAN'T HEAR YOU LA LA LA." this is pointless.

just realize that if you don't admit to being wrong about this, you're accusing at least me and SEP of being liars. i do not appreciate this at all.
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Corrik's attempts at deception and gaslighting are pathetic as usual.
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https://twitter.com/TIME/status/895096548056543232

California crops rot as immigration crackdown creates farmworker shortage https://t.co/a02OCLZfah

Who could have predicted this?
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Peace___Frog posted...

You have straight up put words in my mouth multiple times.

same. corrik said i gave obama and hillary preferential treatment in comparison to trump (after "reading my posts for a year"), which is hilariously wrong.
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Peace___Frog posted...

https://twitter.com/TIME/status/895096548056543232

California crops rot as immigration crackdown creates farmworker shortage https://t.co/a02OCLZfah

Who could have predicted this?

wow that wall is actually doing a pretty good job of keeping people out, isn't it
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Mr Lasastryke posted...

Corrik posted...

Just read the topics. It comes back up later on.

for christ's sake, i DID read the topics and it DIDN'T come back up later on. you think i'm talking out of my ass here without actually reading the topics?

we have several people here saying you're full of shit - including one who has all the topics readily available and can easily verify that you're full of shit - and you just keep going "NOPE HE ADMITTED FULL TIME EMPLOYEES GET INSURANCE CAN'T HEAR YOU LA LA LA." this is pointless.

just realize that if you don't admit to being wrong about this, you're accusing at least me and SEP of being liars. i do not appreciate this at all.

I think you likely missed it as it happened in a disjointed conversation later on. I feel I could find it relatively quickly if I was looking at the topics myself. That said, if I am mistaken and he did not admit what I said earlier, then yes he is absolutely lying as a Kmart manager and saying that full time employees of Kmart are not offered insurance.

I know there is no way SEP could possibly even take that stance honestly, nor do I think he was.

I am pretty sure that was stated later by him, though to be honest I can rarely separate half of you from others in dinstinction. Lasa and Lapis might as well be the same person in my eyes.

Really the only ones I separate is Tony, Suprak, Kenri, eddv, and Peaf. Each for different reasons.
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banananor posted...

Peace___Frog posted...

https://twitter.com/TIME/status/895096548056543232

California crops rot as immigration crackdown creates farmworker shortage https://t.co/a02OCLZfah

Who could have predicted this?

wow that wall is actually doing a pretty good job of keeping people out, isn't it

Seems like great news that there is all these jobs available for those who need them then.
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No one wants them apparently.
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Corrik posted...

I think you likely missed it as it happened in a disjointed conversation later on. I feel I could find it relatively quickly if I was looking at the topics myself. That said, if I am mistaken and he did not admit what I said earlier, then yes he is absolutely lying as a Kmart manager and saying that full time employees of Kmart are not offered insurance.

admittedly i have not read every single post after the kmart debate, but i did read the topic after the debate, and i ctrl+f'd both the words "kmart" and "manager" and didn't find it. plus SEP himself literally said that he never admitted to full time employees getting insurance, so either he's flat-out lying or he completely forgot that he admitted this shortly after he supposedly did so. i find both of these scenarios unlikely. so yeah, i'm 99.9% sure that him admitting that never happened.

in fairness, i do think it would be nice if SEP would clarify if he was talking about employees in general or part-time employees. that way we can finally put a stop to this debate - there's no need for it to drag on over several months.
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FFDragon posted...

No one wants them apparently.

I find it hard to believe that 4 percent of america is unemployed and probably a quarter to a half of that if not more is on welfare and that not a enough of these people live in areas of California with these jobs.
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Feels > reals in prime display
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The American born workers are totally on their way. They're just lost getting to the fields and everyone they ask for directions speaks Spanish.
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Do you know what happens when demand of workers outpaces supply of workers? Wages increase to attract workers
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Yet those jobs remain unfilled and the crops continue to rot.
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In Canadian (and likely American) society the general feeling is that farming is beneath them. There are farms offering double the minimum wage and yet people are not interested.

With cheaper labour in other countries farming is just not a viable business without foreign workers.

This leads to a lack of food security.
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If you argue that a implies b and we see a happening but not b, at what point must our assumptions be challenged and adjusted?

Furthermore, you're operating at a macroeconomics 101 level with all of your simplifying assumptions. You cling to the ideas that workers have full information, that there are no barriers to relocation, and that workers only care about the paycheck and not the work they'd be doing.
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Mr Lasastryke posted...

in fairness, i do think it would be nice if SEP would clarify if he was talking about employees in general or part-time employees. that way we can finally put a stop to this debate - there's no need for it to drag on over several months.

I wasn't really making a specific remark on it as much as trying to feel out what Corrik was actually implying. For instance, he had it on a list as a job where he "received health insurance." So I tried to probe deeper, because K-Mart is very specific.

K-Mart does not "give" you health insurance. K-Mart lets you purchase a very barebones, hugely expensive plan if you're full time. So yes, he's right that full time employees have access to insurance. However, K-Mart doesn't have many full time positions, least of all cashiers, so I was trying to feel out if he ACTUALLY had insurance under them or just knew some people did and was thus trying to use it to boost his list. And it's certainly not one that I'd use to highlight as "Real jobs give you health insurance," because pretty much nobody actually buys into the plan, anyway. It's intended that way.

The reason I dropped it after he took forever to reply was because I no longer had a way to know if his answers were genuine or Google'd at that point.
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Corrik posted...

Jakyl25 posted...

Here's another fun hypothetical for Corrik

Would the slaves have been right to rebel against their owners, to the point of violence if necessary?

Or should they have just waited for government to sort it out?

I think the slaves rebelling was a fair choice and one I woild have probably made if I was under a bad owner.

Rebelling was basically choosing death. And, I think there are many scenarios where I would prefer death over potential situations of being subservient.

Many slave populations in the past rebelled. Spartacus. The jews in Egypt. Not uncommon and certainly understandable.

Okay so it's cool for slaves to rebel because they have no representation in government.

Are the abolitionists wrong for illegally helping them escape?
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Sucks about the crops but its poor management. They chose to hire illegal workers probably to underpay them. It puts a strain on people trying to run their businesses fairly. You need to get rid of all the illegals to create a proper system and wages will correspond.
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Corrik posted...

Sucks about the crops but its poor management. They chose to hire illegal workers probably to underpay them. It puts a strain on people trying to run their businesses fairly. You need to get rid of all the illegals to create a proper system and wages will correspond.

Well, as long as you are fine with paying higher prices or relying on other countries to feed you...
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Corrik posted...

Do you know what happens when demand of workers outpaces supply of workers? Wages increase to attract workers

lordloki12 posted...

Yet those jobs remain unfilled and the crops continue to rot.

When theory meets reality without factoring time and effort. But also the stigma of menial labor. "I have a college education, why am I cleaning the toilet" feeling. If it pays as well as a mechanic or surgeon, welcome to a socialist utopia. But more likely, a mechanical solution will arise (see: Roomba ver#1041) and a new low-managerial job opens.

Jakyl25 posted...

so it's cool for slaves to rebel because they have no representation in government.

Humans love slaves... or at least an established, easy-to-follow heirarchy. Stability and efficiency at the cost of repression. Aren't morals just reinterpretations of religious philosophy? Until then, foreigners (also women and gays and the disabled) are just soulless heathen akin to cattle to live or die at the whims of the moral high-fathers?

Lying and ambition are a sign of an exemplary child, or to the extreme, a dangerous adult.
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North Korea releases imprisoned Canadian pastor

http://www.cbc.ca/news/world/canadian-pastor-released-1.4239910

North Korea has freed a Canadian pastor who was serving a life sentence of hard labour, one day after a Canadian delegation arrived to negotiate his release.

KCNA, North Korea's official news agency, said on Wednesday that Hyeon Soo Lim had been "released on sick bail… from the humanitarian viewpoint."
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Farm owners are so used to the low wages they pay that they refuse to pay the higher wages demanded by American workers. Going from $10/hr to $20/hr (which is probably where you'd need farm labor wages to be to attract Americans) is a 100% increase. Plus, they'll have to provide health insurance, a matching social security contribution, and if Americans are injured on the job, they are ready to sue. In total, we're probably looking at a 150% increase to costs, minimum.

And, I'm not sure $20/hr is enough. You can make almost as much driving an Uber, which is vastly more pleasant. It's driving around in a nice air-conditioned car vs. backbreaking labor in the hot sun.

Now, if we don't allow illegal immigrants to do the farm jobs, eventually wages will stabilize at a rate Americans will accept, once farm owners adapt to the new reality (with a big cut to their profit margins). Or, if they cannot turn a profit at any wage acceptable to Americans, then the farms will mechanize or shut down. If more mechanization is too expensive, we'll end up cutting our farm production and exporting less food. If it's extreme enough a shift, we might become a net importer of food.
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charmander6000 posted...

Well, as long as you are fine with paying higher prices or relying on other countries to feed you...

What country doesn't? Beef, veggies... it's a global juggling game like debt trading.
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_Kaz posted...

charmander6000 posted...

Well, as long as you are fine with paying higher prices or relying on other countries to feed you...

What country doesn't? Beef, veggies... it's a global juggling game like debt trading.

I mean becoming more reliant.
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red sox 777 posted...

Now, if we don't allow illegal immigrants to do the farm jobs, eventually wages will stabilize at a rate Americans will accept, once farm owners adapt to the new reality (with a big cut to their profit margins). Or, if they cannot turn a profit at any wage acceptable to Americans, then the farms will mechanize or shut down. If more mechanization is too expensive, we'll end up cutting our farm production and exporting less food. If it's extreme enough a shift, we might become a net importer of food.

Are any countries net exporters of food? The concept seems odd to me, even for countries with a cash crop (bananas, whitefish, etc.).

Also, another possible reality is that produce becomes "organic" (as in locally sourced) and prices raise significantly across the board.
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_Kaz posted...

red sox 777 posted...

Now, if we don't allow illegal immigrants to do the farm jobs, eventually wages will stabilize at a rate Americans will accept, once farm owners adapt to the new reality (with a big cut to their profit margins). Or, if they cannot turn a profit at any wage acceptable to Americans, then the farms will mechanize or shut down. If more mechanization is too expensive, we'll end up cutting our farm production and exporting less food. If it's extreme enough a shift, we might become a net importer of food.

Are any countries net exporters of food? The concept seems odd to me, even for countries with a cash crop (bananas, whitefish, etc.).

Also, another possible reality is that produce becomes "organic" (as in locally sourced) and prices raise significantly across the board.

Yes, the United States is a huge net exporter of food!
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red sox 777 posted...

Farm owners are so used to the low wages they pay that they refuse to pay the higher wages demanded by American workers. Going from $10/hr to $20/hr (which is probably where you'd need farm labor wages to be to attract Americans) is a 100% increase. Plus, they'll have to provide health insurance, a matching social security contribution, and if Americans are injured on the job, they are ready to sue. In total, we're probably looking at a 150% increase to costs, minimum.

And, I'm not sure $20/hr is enough. You can make almost as much driving an Uber, which is vastly more pleasant. It's driving around in a nice air-conditioned car vs. backbreaking labor in the hot sun.

Now, if we don't allow illegal immigrants to do the farm jobs, eventually wages will stabilize at a rate Americans will accept, once farm owners adapt to the new reality (with a big cut to their profit margins). Or, if they cannot turn a profit at any wage acceptable to Americans, then the farms will mechanize or shut down. If more mechanization is too expensive, we'll end up cutting our farm production and exporting less food. If it's extreme enough a shift, we might become a net importer of food.

Most uber drivers make minimum wage or lose money.
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Paratroopa1 posted...

Excellent topic title

Vouch.



Also, I think Corrik's right about this K-Mart conversation being disjointed with a gap between topics...hard to remember and it might not be worth Lasa's time, but if he was just checking like three topics side by side by side then I don't know if that gets the rest of the conversation.

Not to defend Corrik's name-calling, to be clear -- I was called sick over the Kathy Griffin issue, so it happens.
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Corrik posted...

red sox 777 posted...

Farm owners are so used to the low wages they pay that they refuse to pay the higher wages demanded by American workers. Going from $10/hr to $20/hr (which is probably where you'd need farm labor wages to be to attract Americans) is a 100% increase. Plus, they'll have to provide health insurance, a matching social security contribution, and if Americans are injured on the job, they are ready to sue. In total, we're probably looking at a 150% increase to costs, minimum.

And, I'm not sure $20/hr is enough. You can make almost as much driving an Uber, which is vastly more pleasant. It's driving around in a nice air-conditioned car vs. backbreaking labor in the hot sun.

Now, if we don't allow illegal immigrants to do the farm jobs, eventually wages will stabilize at a rate Americans will accept, once farm owners adapt to the new reality (with a big cut to their profit margins). Or, if they cannot turn a profit at any wage acceptable to Americans, then the farms will mechanize or shut down. If more mechanization is too expensive, we'll end up cutting our farm production and exporting less food. If it's extreme enough a shift, we might become a net importer of food.

Most uber drivers make minimum wage or lose money.

Lose money for tax purposes or actually have negative cash flow?

I mean, I guess the vehicle cost will eat the profits.
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_Kaz posted...

Are any countries net exporters of food?

I mean, there has to be at least one by definition <_<
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HaRRicH posted...

Also, I think Corrik's right about this K-Mart conversation being disjointed with a gap between topics...hard to remember and it might not be worth Lasa's time, but if he was just checking like three topics side by side by side then I don't know if that gets the rest of the conversation.

i didn't just compare those topics - like i said, i also ctrl+f'd "kmart" and "manager." i did find a conversation about the kmart stuff that took place later than the initial one, but i didn't find a post in which SEP "admitted that full time employees get insurance" in either conversation.
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https://twitter.com/noahcrothman/status/895271779056398336

Trump Tweets will continue despite Kelly's pleas!
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The more I hear about John Kelly, the more I almost like the guy.
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http://www.cnn.com/2017/08/09/politics/kfile-ron-johnson-john-mccain/index.html

Man, how was Trump not the one to "go there" first.
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Mr Lasastryke posted...

HaRRicH posted...

Also, I think Corrik's right about this K-Mart conversation being disjointed with a gap between topics...hard to remember and it might not be worth Lasa's time, but if he was just checking like three topics side by side by side then I don't know if that gets the rest of the conversation.

i didn't just compare those topics - like i said, i also ctrl+f'd "kmart" and "manager." i did find a conversation about the kmart stuff that took place later than the initial one, but i didn't find a post in which SEP "admitted that full time employees get insurance" in either conversation.

I only talked about it in the Politics topics, so if it's not in there it didn't happen. And I don't remember it happening since I specifically made a post being like "Uh, I didn't?"
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scarletspeed7 posted...

The more I hear about John Kelly, the more I almost like the guy.

If Trump was removed from any authority, and the decision making was in the hands of Mattis/Kelly/McMaster I would feel infinitely better. Which is a weird thing to say because I understand that would basically be a military coup at that point, and that's typically something that doesn't go well for most countries.
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Jakyl25 posted...

http://www.cnn.com/2017/08/09/politics/kfile-ron-johnson-john-mccain/index.html

Man, how was Trump not the one to "go there" first.

I'm surprised it's taken anyone this long, honestly
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