Board 8 > Hearthstone Discussion Topic: Knights of the Frozen Throne

(+) Yeah! (+)

New, better topic title
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New topic, needs a question. Best card from the new expansion so far?

I'll say Defile in constructed and Bonemare in arena.
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Well, Defile is the best card for Wild constructed definitely. Standard, it still depends on Warlock being viable in Standard. I have hopes, but nothing's guaranteed.

In arena, I'm still not as hot on Bonemare as most people (as I said last topic, it's such a win-more card, especially if you aren't Pally or Shaman). Plague Scientist is definitely my pick.
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moorabi looks fun.
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Freeze Shaman seems really bad but it looks like goofy fun with Moorabi. Maybe some janky build with elementals.

I also want to get off Discolock's wild ride
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Rogue 3 mana 3/2 weapon is gonna be great
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tag I guess
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VeryInsane posted...

Rogue 3 mana 3/2 weapon is gonna be great

I thought this too but my friend pointed out that they already have a 3 mana 3/2 weapon called Deadly Poison. Now I'm not sure. And since the effect is one turn, realistically you're only going to save around 2-4 life? I dunno.
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i drafted two of the worst decks ever back to back.

But I opened a GOLDEN Awaken the Makers. Priest is one of the only classes I actually have a decent amount of cards for... so one day... I can use this card.
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is this brawl slanted in rag's favor? I played four and rag won every time.
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Tag.
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bng_mmmk posted...

is this brawl slanted in rag's favor? I played four and rag won every time.

Seems that way. I got Nefarian three times in a row, and barely eked out a win the third time.

I'm not sold on Defile. Looks like Maelstrom Portal to me -- Arcane Explosion with upside. But what does it accomplish if the board is all 2+ health minions? Yeah, occasionally you'll get this beautiful cascade, and it's certainly not a bad card. It'll be played. But best card in the set? I sure hope not.
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That's a major nerf to Defile, given the number of deathrattle - spawn a creature effects in the game.

It also wouldn't solve the problem because, unlike e.g. Magic, triggers are allowed to interrupt effects midway through (c.f. volcano + hydra, or mad scientist + SI-7 agent + Mirror Entity).

Some triggers, yes. But anything that would cause Defile to go infinite? Because that's basically the problem we're trying to contain. The only triggers I can think of that would add to the board (Patron, Hogger v2) would create a minion that ties up a board slot, so eventually you'd cap out and no new guys would hit the board.
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HeroDelTiempo17 posted...

VeryInsane posted...

Rogue 3 mana 3/2 weapon is gonna be great

I thought this too but my friend pointed out that they already have a 3 mana 3/2 weapon called Deadly Poison. Now I'm not sure. And since the effect is one turn, realistically you're only going to save around 2-4 life? I dunno.

Maybe, but if you're running it you probably are also running Deadly Poison. I think it'll have a place.

-Priest Resurrect seems really strong. I can see a value Priest running it, or one that's planning on cheesing people with Barnes shenanigans.
-Frost Lich Jaina and Sindragosa have some good synergy at least. Still think burn package is better, but what do I know
-Defile is... ok? I don't think it's the savior card everybody wants it to be because a lot of minions have 2 health right now. I guess it combos really well with Possessed Villager, but a 2 card combo that deals 3 damage is basically just around the same as hellfire.
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azuarc posted...

bng_mmmk posted...

is this brawl slanted in rag's favor? I played four and rag won every time.

Seems that way. I got Nefarian three times in a row, and barely eked out a win the third time.

I'm not sold on Defile. Looks like Maelstrom Portal to me -- Arcane Explosion with upside. But what does it accomplish if the board is all 2+ health minions? Yeah, occasionally you'll get this beautiful cascade, and it's certainly not a bad card. It'll be played. But best card in the set? I sure hope not.

1) Warlock has ways to deal 1 damage to get things to cascade
2) Pirate Warrior is a deck. Patches is a card.

azuarc posted...

That's a major nerf to Defile, given the number of deathrattle - spawn a creature effects in the game.

It also wouldn't solve the problem because, unlike e.g. Magic, triggers are allowed to interrupt effects midway through (c.f. volcano + hydra, or mad scientist + SI-7 agent + Mirror Entity).

Some triggers, yes. But anything that would cause Defile to go infinite? Because that's basically the problem we're trying to contain. The only triggers I can think of that would add to the board (Patron, Hogger v2) would create a minion that ties up a board slot, so eventually you'd cap out and no new guys would hit the board.

If creatures aren't being removed from the board, their deathrattles won't trigger.

Though one of the Blizzard guys showed up in a Reddit thread and said they put in an arbitrary cap for the rare Patron or Cruel Dinomancer setups, so yeah now they've got no excuse.
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boss brawls are the best
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It can be tough in that position as a hunter. If you just keep shooting you might win, but if your opponent does anything to heal in the next 3-4 turns you might have screwed yourself out of a win by not spending enough mana elsewhere.
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Got an 8 win arena as a hunter with a deck I dont really think was good. I did however get insane rng off of primalist. Like got Call twice, a dank explosive shot, etc. Saved me several times. Also, players being bad also saved me.

Now I have a rogue deck... it's jade rogue (almost) in arena.
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I wish I could get matched against bad players in arena. in both of my free runs I drafted mediocre decks and then proceeded to match against mages or priests with answers every turn who just destroyed me. actually, I take that back, I did play one person who made a misplay and it did cost him the match which was fairly satisfying. still 2-3 and 1-3 don't really feel all that great. even if they were my free runs.
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...Seriously, Blizzard? It's a generic 2-drop at Epic in arena, has no place in zoolock, doesn't have a place in Control Warlock because that deck really doesn't want to win in fatigue, there aren't put-a-card-on-top-of-owner's-library cards to combo with it... As far as I can tell, it's just insurance against the possibility of Exodia decks running rampant, and Exodia decks aren't even tier 2!

(granted having a generic 2-drop at epic in arena actually makes it better than 50% of epics but THAT'S NOT THE POINT)
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I already know I'm going to be playing some Priest or Mage, get down to the final card of my deck as Exodia which is always a necessary one because what else would it be, and have them deck me with this from an earlier Kabal Courier.
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UltimaterializerX posted...

It's not meant to be a wincon. It's meant to be an annoyance. I *love* effects like this. It'll mostly not win you the game, but those moments when it hits the second Jade Idol, Alex, Antonidas, Free From Amber, the Ungoro pack from Elise, or that kill spell they need to win the game, it will be GLORIOUS.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E7oMBq1vkCM

If it were a Demon, this might be okay. As it is, there's no good reason to have it naturally in your deck (remember: odds of the next card being key are the same as the odds of it being the last card in the deck)... meaning we just get BS scenarios like the one Camden just described.
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I dunno, it just seems like it's going to be like Fel Reaver and it's not gonna be that big of a deal. It's just going to be as if that card discarded is in the bottom of that player's deck.
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I like it.
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VeryInsane posted...

I dunno, it just seems like it's going to be like Fel Reaver and it's not gonna be that big of a deal. It's just going to be as if that card discarded is in the bottom of that player's deck.

mathematically speaking it doesn't give you a huge advantage to play this card. something like Dirty Rat is actually more consistent if you want to tech against combo decks. this will more often than not just be a river crocolisk which is not a playable card in constructed.

the issue from a design perspective is that when this card is played it will have VERY swingy outcomes. you could burn the opponents novice engineer and essentially thin their deck for them, or you could burn their antonidas and instantly win the game. this is even more swingy than the tuskarr totemic, a card which was HATED during the entire time it was in the standard cycle. something to keep in mind. although TT had a consistently high power level and was played, while this card will have a consistently low power level and likely not be played.
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oh yeah and Camden's point is pretty important too. in a game like Hearthstone which has an assload of cards that generate cards that generate other cards for you, there is going to be some very real salt when this card is just gifted to your opponent by chance and they use it to completely by absolute dumb luck just mill an important card from your deck.
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the issue from a design perspective is that when this card is played it will have VERY swingy outcomes. you could burn the opponents novice engineer and essentially thin their deck for them, or you could burn their antonidas and instantly win the game. this is even more swingy than the tuskarr totemic, a card which was HATED during the entire time it was in the standard cycle. something to keep in mind. although TT had a consistently high power level and was played, while this card will have a consistently low power level and likely not be played.

The big difference between this and Tuskarr is that Tuskarr actually affected the board state by giving a free Totem Golem/Flametongue/Mana Tide over 40% of the time which is exceptionally good. This won't, it will most likely be as if Antonidas was the last card in the deck. Most Hearthstone games don't go to fatigue and I believe the average game ends around turn 8 or 9?

Also, as depressing as it can be to burn Antonidas, there are alternate win conditions a Quest Mage can produce, especially against Warlock who have limited heal and burn health with their hero power.
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I mean that was just one random example

say I'm playing paladin and I have 4 health left, and this card burns my forbidden healing and I lose the game
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also it's not "as if" antonidas was at the bottom of the deck. antonidas was right there. this card PUT HIM at the bottom of the deck. it's not like the effect is just like an oh well it happened and I got unlucky. it's "during the times when I did get lucky and I did draw antonidas, the opponent uses RNG to undo my good fortune"
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Again, it will be as if it was the bottom of the deck and you wouldn't draw it. Would be infuriating, but usually that's what Hearthstone losses are these days.

Anyway, this card is potentially cool:

https://hearthstone.judgehype.com/image/762437/

Like a mini imp gang boss with a weaker body but stronger tokens
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It's not going to be as good in limited as IGB because it has to survive, and that one-less-power isn't insignificant. A lot of the time, it reads "3-mana 1/4, summon a 2/2 during your next turn"; I'd much rather have a 3/4 straight-up. For constructed, it feels like it wants to be in decks running whirlwind effects, but those same effects are hurting its tokens, so...

Interesting card, though.
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I like that card. It has always bothered me that hearthstone doesn't have cards that either remove from your opponents hand or deck. There's so much removal for played cards but not for cards your opponent is holding

I like the Gnomish Vampire. I think your hate on it is a little overblown VI. It could destroy win conditions, or maybe not. It's a good card that maybe you don't always want to run if you don't really value what it does very much. Thats basically the ideal design imo

As for that val'kyr, it might be better than IGP because of all the whirlwind effects. At this point, playing against a warrior is "expect the board to take 1 damage every turn" so I would expect the valkyr to get two procs off most times if your deck is intended to make use of it (which it should be if you included it...)

also


THE GAME BEGINS

.
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I don't hate it, but I don't think it's good and I don't think it will see play. Crocs just don't do much on the board for any Warlock archetype right now, and I've played enough Miracle Rogue and Freeze Mage to recognize that them burning one card, even if it is a key card, is essentially like them not drawing it during the game. Or hell, it's way more likely for them to not get the combo card, in which case they're one card closer to it so in that case even then it's too risky to play.
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UltimaterializerX posted...

Played ranked without caring about winning is great,

c'thun warrior all day er'ry day
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I'd bet good money your opponent has an Air Totem on the board.
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I think the one thing we can all agree on with Gnomish Vampire is that it'll be a major feature on Trolden videos all throughout this expansion. Because it feels bad either way and people are gonna flip out.
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MariaTaylor posted...

oh yeah and Camden's point is pretty important too. in a game like Hearthstone which has an assload of cards that generate cards that generate other cards for you, there is going to be some very real salt when this card is just gifted to your opponent by chance and they use it to completely by absolute dumb luck just mill an important card from your deck.

The thing is, I'm not even mad about this possibility. I like the fact that they're putting these kinds of things into the game, even if it's a step to solving a problem that doesn't really exist right now(One day, years from now, aggro won't be so prevalent. Right?). It's just, I know it's going to happen. Not just Ant getting burned, but him literally being on the bottom of my deck and then getting burned.

VeryInsane posted...

The big difference between this and Tuskarr is that Tuskarr actually affected the board state by giving a free Totem Golem/Flametongue/Mana Tide over 40% of the time which is exceptionally good. This won't, it will most likely be as if Antonidas was the last card in the deck. Most Hearthstone games don't go to fatigue and I believe the average game ends around turn 8 or 9?

Also, as depressing as it can be to burn Antonidas, there are alternate win conditions a Quest Mage can produce, especially against Warlock who have limited heal and burn health with their hero power.

The version of Quest Mage I usually play has literally zero other win conditions, and on turn 8 or 9 I've already went through the majority of my deck. I guess I could get lucky and Tome into burn and a second Tome which gives me more burn, or I could play all of the Apprentices and my opponent just has no way to deal two damage to any of them, but combo is the only win condition in the 30 cards my deck starts with.
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HeroDelTiempo17 posted...

I think the one thing we can all agree on with Gnomish Vampire is that it'll be a major feature on Trolden videos all throughout this expansion. Because it feels bad either way and people are gonna flip out.

yeah it's just like TT in this regard. many times it is played the person playing it will be disappointed (because it did nothing), or the person who got milled will be disappointed (because it had a devastating effect).
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HeroDelTiempo17 posted...

I think the one thing we can all agree on with Gnomish Vampire is that it'll be a major feature on Trolden videos all throughout this expansion. Because it feels bad either way and people are gonna flip out.

Only if a Rogue gets it off of Hallucination and burns Jaraxxus. Because I still don't see Warlock running a vanilla 2/3.
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VeryInsane posted...

HeroDelTiempo17 posted...

I think the one thing we can all agree on with Gnomish Vampire is that it'll be a major feature on Trolden videos all throughout this expansion. Because it feels bad either way and people are gonna flip out.

Only if a Rogue gets it off of Hallucination and burns Jaraxxus. Because I still don't see Warlock running a vanilla 2/3.

You can also get it from Kabal Courier and our good old friend eSportal in Wild. Plus you probably pick it in arena. And there will always be someone playing it for the memes.
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I'm going to be the one here to make the bold claim that Gnomish Vampire is a card others are going to sleep on. I think there's a lot more to this card than you're giving it credit for, and the only thing maybe holding it back from being a major nuisance is the class limitation. I was amazed how many streamers thought Dirty Rat was going to suck, and I knew it was going to be anything but. I expect GV to be similar, assuming warlock can find a way to drag matches out and/or get a mill game going.
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if there's a fatlock deck it will see play

if not, it won't

mathematically speaking the discard effect as written is just not very good
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If they get a card that's like

Battlecry: Put a minion on top of its owner's deck

it would be okay

two card silence/assassinate
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