Board 8 > All-Purpose Wrestling Topic 415: Feel the GLOW. On Netflix.

(+) Yeah! (+)

Ok. That part IS dumb.
---

Jon Jones/Brock Lesnar

Who you got?
---

Whichever takes it more seriously
---

Dave's right though in that there really is no good time to actually do this fight

Brock's PED suspension clock just restarted as he agreed to be randomly tested again, and that won't expire until December

And then we're in the WM build which WWE isn't going to let Brock take time off during.

It would have to wait until sometime after WM when his contract expires.
---

All this means, is Brock can again have both give him a truck load of money.
---

SmartMuffin posted...

1.) Fabulous Moolah - 10,778 (674)
2.) Trish Stratus - 828
3.) Beth Phoenix - 571

This is so goddamn ridiculous.

This stat kind of validates her Hall of Fame for me.
---

https://twitter.com/ObserverQuotes/status/891502234210639873

This has to be in my Top 5 favorite @ObserverQuotes ever
---

PrivateBiscuit1 posted...

So Bo Dallas is insane.

Just listen to Talk is Jericho.

Holy shit you weren't kidding.

Motherfucker is certifiable.
---

SmartMuffin posted...

https://twitter.com/WNSource/status/890695785976877057

Kane looks like Nelson Muntz is about to drop a HA-HA on him

Is that his house? Please tell me that is his house.

I want Kane to have two Velociraptor statues in his yard.
---

WWE Network is at 1.5M paid subscriptions at the end of Q2

Their churn rate is still hilarious to me. Since WM 604,000 people fell off and 598,000 people signed up.

4 MILLION IS THE GOAL
---

I like to pretend that new people are signing up all the time, curious to try the new service.

Then they watch a pay-per-view.
---

scarletspeed7 posted...

I like to pretend that new people are signing up all the time, curious to try the new service.

Then they watch a pay-per-view.

It's certainly possible. The Smackdown after Battleground was much better than Batteground itself. Why subscribe if the PPV content is inferior to the on air content.

(Or if you're a fool like me and forget to cancel the 3 month free trial-- guess I'm watching Summerslam but I think I might've gotten it anyway. Would've liked to have timed the subscription to be just before Summerslam though!)
---

So I'm firmly convinced that in all of their efforts to post WCW content and create that Monday Night Wars show a couple years ago, Vince discovered what they actually did on Nitro and has started to recreate it. Because I really feel like the last several pay-per-views have been WCW pay-per-views. By that, I mean that WWF would build to pay-per-views on their shows, and WCW would build to their shows on pay-per-view. The PPVs just feel so much more meaningless than the shows now.
---

Well I guess the answer is get more talent since that appears to be the most cost effective way of improving subs........yeah I got nuthing for them.
---

WWE has more talent than they know what to do with though.
---

WWE doesn't know what to do with any talent any more. It's not a quantity problem.
---

That's the point.

They can't grow themselves, but if you stop everyone else from growing, you'll at least stay top.

Biggest fish in a diminishing pond.
---

I would associate WWE's problem to the same people being at the top forever making it harder to build new stars. However, WWE has no choice because no one cares about their new stars. And by no one I mean the people watching RAW and Smackdown during airing because ratings continue to decline. This may also have to do with less and less people having cable too.
---

Don't know if it's been posted here, but this is an amazing, wonderful read on the journey of Becky Lynch's character and touches on all the incredible moments and promos that happened over the past few years.

https://www.cagesideseats.com/wwe/2017/7/31/15944106/it-meant-something-becky-lynch-identity-and-wrestling-wwe-smackdown-live-womens-champion

Literally just got to the post-MitB Smackdown with tears in my eyes about damn good she is.
---

Becky Lynch is pretty much the last true babyface that people cheer.
---

I think if WWE had abandoned ship on their homegrown stars they could've had real stars by now.

Like if you have these new guys like AJ Styles, Samoa Joe, Nakamura, etc booked at a level well above the NXT guys, they'd actually feel like stars. The Shield quite frankly, when split up, should be a midcard act. But when you're putting them at the same level of guys who quite frankly aren't real stars, then it just makes these new talents look cheap rather than elevating your existing guys.
---

I would argue that AJ, Joe and Nakamura are well-booked. Just not well-written (Joe is probably the best written of the three).
---

Well, the problem is not so much that they're not booked well.

The problem is guys who clearly aren't stars are booked too well.

Like if you have Samoa Joe in a competitive feud with Seth Rollins or Roman Reigns, it damages his Star Power because Seth Rollins has been made out to be Joe's equal and Rollins and Reigns are damaged goods. If you have AJ Styles booked competitively with Kevin Owens, Bray Wyatt, etc etc, it damages AJ Styles because these guys are not stars.

They had it right with AJ Styles for a while-- Cena is about the only guy who SHOULD be able to touch hot stars from outside the circuit. He's really the only truly credible homegrown star WWE has aside from maybe Orton. (And Brock obviously, but I don't really consider him homegrown either at this point)

Basically WWE needs to cut ties with their midcarders with belts and accept they're not going to be a big deal because they've ruined them, but they refuse to, which constantly ruins any future attempts to build any new stars.
---

Like put it another way.

Didn't AJ Styles feel like a big deal even as recently as this past year's Royal Rumble?

Now? He's just a guy. Do you think he's gonna feel like a big deal now if he enters a feud with Cena? Is his talent just that high that he can go right back into a feud with him and bring back the star power he once had? Because I don't think so.
---

I actually think AJ feels like a star feuding with people beneath him, honestly.
---

That may be. I'm honestly not sure which it is right now.

But how long can he do that before he's tainted by the stink of Kevin Owens (I like KO but he's long been ruined). And if he started his WWE career by feuding with these guys beneath him for an extended period of time, does he feel like a star to you?

Put it the other way-- say Joe went pretty much directly into this feud with Brock Lesnar. How much bigger of a deal is he right now. I do think Joe has some potential as he didn't debut too long ago and I think he won that feud vs Rollins, but if enters an extended program with Roman and is booked 50/50, I don't see him feeling like a big deal for long.

Point is they just need to treat these indie guys raised through NXT like the midcarders they are. They do that and everything falls into place I feel. As it is I think Nakamura is doomed, and Samoa Joe and AJ Styles are at risk the longer Roman Reigns and Kevin Owens continue to battle competitively with them.
---

Wow, when did people go from saying they don't do enough with their homegrown stars to saying they push them too much
---

I don't really think this is common thinking and have only really felt this was the case recently.

Like they've been trying to make Roman Reigns, Seth Rollins, etc a big deal for how long? They really just have this aura of midcardyness to them now imo. I think the only untainted homegrown guy they have right now is Braun Strowman.

Notice I didn't even mention Finn Balor. That guy's already ruined due to feuding with midcarders too long.
---

Lopen posted...

Point is they just need to treat these indie guys raised through NXT like the midcarders they are. They do that and everything falls into place I feel. As it is I think Nakamura is doomed, and Samoa Joe and AJ Styles are at risk the longer Roman Reigns and Kevin Owens continue to battle competitively with them.

I don't think KO can ruin AJ at this point. The feud is probably done after SummerSlam. I think Reigns is utter cancer and kills his opponents unless they consistently beat him.

Nakamura is doomed and it has nothing to do with booking at all.
---

Maybe Owens can't, but where does AJ Styles go from there. I feel like if it's anyone but Cena or Orton (or maybe Mahal if he actually takes the title) it's not good for him right now.
---

AJ is AJ: he's as big a star as he wants being on Smackdown. Bring him to Raw, and he won't be, despite him being the only non-Brock/Cena/Hardys person to get insane crowd reaction (for this era anyway). I think the crowd is smart enough to know he can't be in world title matches "all" the time. But look what happened when Jinder won the title. Guess who stayed in the main events of SD: AJ. He's been the Smackdown constant, even though it is obvious he doesn't need any title to be as over as he is.

Am I saying he's a Taker type who doesn't need titles to be over? No, it's just people know he is the best wrestler they have. The crowd knows it, Vince knows it, and unless he goes on a crazy losing streak, he's in that Jericho situation where the crowd will NOT let him not be a main event star.

He also had the misfortune of sidestepping the Wyatt/Jinder situation Orton had to. AJ is not a mainstream star, but he's the guy that makes everyone better. He got a MOTN out of Shane fucking McMahon, after no one wanted him in that situation. WWE will keep him as a star.
---

I think AJ can feud with anyone if he beats them every step of the way. There's nothing wrong with Finn feuding with Samson, so long as no match goes Samson's way.
---

It's not so much Finn feuding with Samson, as much as the accumulating feuds he's had up through this time. He's been damaged by not interacting with any real stars (Brock and Cena are really your only options) in his run.

I mean, he's a "star" the same way Roman Reigns and Seth Rollins are "stars" right now but I don't think these are the type that are gonna move the needle. Just like an AJ Styles who is "a Chris Jericho type who will always be over" isn't either. AJ can be better than that, but he won't be unless he's booked in a really commanding way-- much moreso than he is now.
---

I think you're making more out of this KO feud than is necessary. You can't always put guys in big feud after big feud. AJ spent quite a while in high profile feuds; the idea that he's against KO and potentially should have great matches on the midcard for a while is fine.
---

But WWE is in a "brand > stars" model. Meltzer can keep waxing poetic, but Vince made it this way. AJ is one of the more fortunate ones. That's all you can hope for at this point. Vince cut Punk's balls off despite being the last guy to shift merchandise. He did that with everyone else too. He just can't do that with Brock because it's obvious Brock made his name outside with UFC.

I don't think there's anything wrong with being a "star" in WWE's new model. I think we overinflate the value. People have to win, and people have to lose. I'm grateful AJ is not one of the 50/50 guys. He's more like 75-25, if even less. Only 4-5 other guys get that treatment. Cena and Orton haven't in EVERY main event or EVERY title match either, and haven't been that way for about 3 years now. Does that make them any less marketable?
---

I think you need to have AJ be constantly in high profile feuds when you're in the situation WWE is in. You can afford not to when you actually have depth on your roster. But having a bunch of Roman Reigns and Seth Rollins isn't going to move the needle. This may be the model they're "trying" for but that doesn't mean it's a good thing. It means this model is probably largely what's killing them, long term.
---

Being in the top feud all the time turns AJ into another Roman. The smartest move is to give vacations. What you want is guys to feel special. Special comes from things being different. Different is running a variety of stars with more sporadic appearances.
---

Well, there's a big difference between putting a guy who the fans love and accept as a top guy in the top feuds constantly and trying to shoehorn a guy who gets midcarder reactions into those feuds.

Stone Cold Steve Austin was not "another Roman." Booking a guy like Roman is not a bad thing they just chose the wrong guy (or more accurately, the wrong time-- give Roman a push a year earlier and I think he would've done much better) to do it with.
---

What feuds has AJ been in that "haven't" been high profile?

3 straight main events with the WWE title from TLC to EC
Shane at Mania
MITB ladder match
US title being slotted in every SD main event (with Jinder only taking ME spots during PPVs; what was Jinder's only SD main event? Harper?)

He's bound to face either Cena again or Nakamura. That's not a bad year if you ask me.
---

But WWE is in a "brand > stars" model. Meltzer can keep waxing poetic, but Vince made it this way.

No, Vince WANTS this to be the model, but it isn't. Meltzer isn't "waxing poetic" so much as he is quoting financial information. The fact of the matter is that the periods of time when the business has been the most profitable have been the periods of time when they've had big stars. The fact is that you can notice significant bumps to ticket sales, merch sales, and TV ratings that generally track with Hogan, Austin, and (to a lesser extent) Cena.

Vince hates this for pretty obvious reasons and is trying his damndest to make it so he can enjoy the benefits of Austin-level cash without having Austin-level personalities and demands to meet, but it doesn't work that way.
---

Then what? Say you pick a "different guy." That still leaves you with 100 other people just "aren't" that. You can't please everybody. How many people want how many different people to have that "big run" or whatever? For some of us, AJ would be the guy. Others wanted Bryan, Punk, or whomever. If you want Owens or Cesaro or Joe...there's just so many spots for so many people. So few get that chance at the world title. Even less would be an undisputed #1.

I certainly think Vince and HHH both picked the wrong guy. But god knows asking us our opinion would be just as dumb. We'll give you the "anyone but Roman" answer.
---

Because you cant force it.

The fan narrative about Cena has always just blatantly forgotten that fans asked for Cena and even as a portion of the fanbase turned agaunst him, mostly they kept asking for more Cena.

No one has ever asked for Roman except when they thought it might mean no Batista.
---

Listening to fan reactions, and just following those, is the easy way. It requires some amount of flexibility. That's why I think Roman would've been much better off if he axed Batista a year before he did, despite "not being ready."

I mean for all you say about guys like Owens, Ceasro. Those guys, it has never been the right time. Maybe that's booking. Maybe that's the guy. With guys like AJ, Bryan, Punk, and maybe even Samoa Joe or Braun Strowman, the time has come, and it has been capitalized on to varying degrees, but it hasn't quite been converted into a big deal due to lack of follow through. But it could be. But to really follow through, whatever the next big star is has to be put on a level well above these guys who clearly aren't a big deal. And that just hasn't been the case.

But I think the more you've got guys like Reigns and Rollins and Wyatt and Owens as "main eventers," the harder it is to ever make a star. Those guys need to be booked firmly below any guy you want to make a star, cause their brand is permanently damaged-- otherwise you can't make one.
---

Lopen posted...

scarletspeed7 posted...

I like to pretend that new people are signing up all the time, curious to try the new service.

Then they watch a pay-per-view.

It's certainly possible. The Smackdown after Battleground was much better than Batteground itself. Why subscribe if the PPV content is inferior to the on air content.

(Or if you're a fool like me and forget to cancel the 3 month free trial-- guess I'm watching Summerslam but I think I might've gotten it anyway. Would've liked to have timed the subscription to be just before Summerslam though!)

Vince GOT YA
---

Jakyl25 posted...

Vince GOT YA

I'm only slightly upset. I think WWE Network is actually worth it at $2.50 a month, even with the bad product we've got. And I was gonna get Summerslam anyway if Strowman got a title shot, which appears likely (would prefer something that wasn't a 4 way though)

Of course I need to just realize that you can cancel the day after you get it and still have the subscription. Won't get me again.
---

scarletspeed7 posted...

I think AJ can feud with anyone if he beats them every step of the way. There's nothing wrong with Finn feuding with Samson, so long as no match goes Samson's way.

Too late
---

I guess kitamura will be an interesting experiment for njpw in how to create stars from the ground up.

Guy doesn't have genius level wrestling iq like naito or okada.

He's just uuuh Batista if Batista had Jack swagger's or Chad gable's amateur wrestling background.

But they have high hopes for him, so let's see which path they take to try and turn him into a main event attraction.
---

I don't see how your model works out at all long term Lopen. Your idea of what defines someone as a "big deal" and how easy it is for that label to disappear pretty much ensures that it's impossible for anyone to get the treatment you want. If AJ Styles got the booking you want, he would have feuded with Orton at some point and be on Lesnar right now and then after Summerslam he wouldn't be a big deal because there's literally no one else.
---

Well, the key is once AJ is established as someone who is a big deal, you no longer need to have him constantly facing the guys who are established, as he himself is then established.

You can then use him in the Brock/Cena/Orton spot, along with those guys, to help elevate the next guy. But if you cut his legs out before he's firmly established as a big deal, by putting him at the level of Rollins or whatever, then he never reaches that level.
---

I hate to tell you this, but AJ is one guy who is definitely established.
---