Board 8 > Scarlet Ranks 225 User-Nominated Super-Villains: Part II

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scarletspeed7 posted...

I completely disagree. The great runs are far outweighed by the bad ones, the nonsensical ones, the Frank Miller ones, the constant desire to provide "THE DEFINITIVE TAKE."

Joker is immortal now. Does that even make sense for the character? No. Not at all. But now we have an answer for how he always comes back! Except we didn't need one. These constant tinkerings have made the good meaningless.

That's fair. A character that's bad 90% of the time and good to various degrees 10% of the time is still mostly bad. But I tend not to focus on the bad stuff because to me it's not even worth focusing on. I'm not gonna tell someone that overall, Watchmen is kind of a wash because it some mediocre cash-ins. It's just a question of how much baggage you're willing to accept and I guess I'm willing to put up with a lot more.

I view the immortality thing differently from the multi-personality aspect. The personality shifts close a dumb plothole no one cared about, but it also opens up the character to different interpretations, because creativity is what Joker needs to be good. The immortality angle closes a dumb loophole no one cared about....and that's really it. It wasn't even used well in the story it featured in! So I guess I understand where you're coming from.
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Any thoughts as to The Killing Joke Joker specifically? I've never read it but have heard all the praise.
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No write-ups today, sorry. Although I imagine we all need some time to digest the death of the Joker.
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I'm curious how you feel about the takes on Joker in film and TV/Video Games. Like Romero, Nicholson, Hamill, Ledger, whoever the dude in Suicide Squad's name is.

It seems like they're all fairly consistent to themselves despite being pretty inconsistent with one another-- for instance despite thinking the Nicholson Joker is ass, he's not a character who changes wildly and without reason throughout the movie which seems to be your main issue with Joker. I assume any given portrayal would be accurate to the comic character to varying degrees since he's had so many writers that change how he acts, but I'm curious if any of the incarnations that weren't in comics painted a consistent character you would've enjoyed significantly more than comic Joker if he was consistently used in that way.

Are any of them particularly good to you? Bad to you?
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#105 - Owlman (Thomas Wayne Jr.) Nominated by: Jesse
First Appearance: Justice League of America #29 (Aug. 1964)
Created by: Gardner Fox and Mike Sekwosky

Fundamentals: 7/10
Track Record: 7/10
Scarlet Factor: 5/10

Owlman, the doppelganger of Batman, the probable main character on the show Gotham, is an adequate character. Well designed, the conceit of the A-List evil twin schtick was perfected with the Crime Syndicate. You'll never duplicate it as successfully as this group. Sure, there are other foil characters out there, but this is the most enduring version of the Ultraman concept. Owlman, however, is probably my least favorite member of the CSA. Consider for a moment that other characters not only have twisted mirror image backstories but also power sets that serve as a foil as well. The Johnny Quick and Power Ring have an extra layer that intrigues me. With Batman, "guy with gadgets" is about the extent you can run. Furthermore, Batman has more doppelgangers than anyone else. It's hard to care about Grant Morrison's Owlman when he's already worked with other foil Batmen. Hell, just a list should give you pause: Wrath, Man-Bat, Prometheus, the Knight, Thomas Wayne of Earth-2, Simon Hurt, etc.

What I mean to say is that Owlman falls beneath his comrades because the pool is diluted. Unlike Superwoman and Ultraman, there are many alternate options to use in Owlman's stead. Superman has 2 (Cyborg Superman is not a foil, don't pretend that he is). Wonder Woman doesn't really have any at all aside from Superwoman. The Flash has many, but Johnny Quick is quite different from the others. And the lore of Power Ring has superseded the simple concept of a doppelganger.

Owlman is left out in the cold.
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scarlet, you can settle a discussion I had a few weeks ago with someone. What's the biggest name male superhero to not have at least one female knockoff (ex: Batwoman, X-23, etc), discounting the Fantastic Four and Cyclops?
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Lopen posted...

I'm curious how you feel about the takes on Joker in film and TV/Video Games. Like Romero, Nicholson, Hamill, Ledger, whoever the dude in Suicide Squad's name is.

It seems like they're all fairly consistent to themselves despite being pretty inconsistent with one another-- for instance despite thinking the Nicholson Joker is ass, he's not a character who changes wildly and without reason throughout the movie which seems to be your main issue with Joker. I assume any given portrayal would be accurate to the comic character to varying degrees since he's had so many writers that change how he acts, but I'm curious if any of the incarnations that weren't in comics painted a consistent character you would've enjoyed significantly more than comic Joker if he was consistently used in that way.

Are any of them particularly good to you? Bad to you?

To be honest, I see the performances as separate entities, but I tend to see the character as one lump sum. That's the danger - I see James Bond as a sum of his parts as well. It's all part of the same shared experience. Does it bother me that there are inconsistencies with Jokers in film? Not as much as comics. That said, I don't see too many portrayals of the Joker that aren't, frankly, skin deep and forgettable. I have Ledger and Hamill. Anything else is one and done.
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Anagram posted...

scarlet, you can settle a discussion I had a few weeks ago with someone. What's the biggest name male superhero to not have at least one female knockoff (ex: Batwoman, X-23, etc), discounting the Fantastic Four and Cyclops?

Do I count alternate universes?

If not, the answer is Iceman.
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Thanks.
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scarletspeed7 posted...

I have Ledger and Hamill.

Well these are the only two Jokers I really like so that's good.

But I'm just curious like, if you were to have "Ledger Joker" or "Hamill Joker" as the character depicted in comics... fairly consistently (so as to not give them unfair amounts of cred for consistency-- just put em on par with decently written villains in this regard), are either one of them one of the strongest villains on the field-- or about what place would they be in? Or is that too difficult to separate out for you? Or is there a comic book version of Joker from a certain writer that beats both?

Basically I'm just trying to figure out how much Joker's inconsistency is damaging him here vs like, an ideal Joker, if that makes sense.
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I don't think Ledger is an ideal Joker. I think he's a fantastic one-shot villain. The problem is that the Joker needs to be pathetic at his core. I think Hamill's Joker was needy and codependent at heart.
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#104 - The Will Nominated by: Eddv
First Appearance: Saga #1 (Mar. 2012)
Created by: Brian K. Vaughan and Fiona Staples

Fundamentals: 7/10
Track Record: 7/10
Scarlet Factor: 5/10

Go read Saga. That is all.
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But I don't know who's in it besides this guy and that cat.
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You know it also has a robot from a previous write-up. That should realistically be all you need.
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That is a pretty cool cat.
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#103 - Carmine Falcone Nominated by: Eddv
First Appearance: Batman #404 (Jul. 1987)
Created by: Frank Miller and David Mazzuccelli

Fundamentals: 7/10
Track Record: 7/10
Scarlet Factor: 5/10

Conceptually, I love the low-level mobsters in the world of Gotham City. They actually matter more than the super-villains. The Joker plans these grand and elaborate events for Batman. Do they matter to the average Gotham citizen? Probably not. But Maroni? Falcone? Bertinelli? These motherfuckers are what should scare you. Their goons are extorting your business for protection money. Their street toughs shadow restaurants and bars that you KNOW you should never enter. Their kid is getting preferential treatment at your daughter's school, and you just know that little Jimmy Falcone got into the AP program and stole a spot from your daughter, but you're never going to do anything about it. You know that if you made any mention of it, a little punishment might come your way. It's better to shut your mouth and accept that life is unfair in a city gripped by organized crime. There was a shooting near your school. Was it Mr. Freeze? No, it was a shoot-out between the Street Demonz and the LoBoyz.

That's why I think Falcone matters. Because no matter what Poison Ivy does this quarter, it's not what affects you. Clayface isn't assuming your identity. Catwoman isn't breaking into your house. No, what you're afraid of is one of Falcone's men busting down the door one night demanding you hide him from a rival gang member and a shoot-out destroying your dining room. The lawlessness of Gotham City exists on a microscale in a more macro-scale showdown between gang leaders. You need Falcone to exist for Batman to exist. Joe Chill wasn't Scarecrow. He was a goon, a thug, a bandit. He was the kind of guy who thrives in a city controlled by a Falcone.
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So question, when it comes to Gotham alone, how did you like the whole mobster stuff? Would you keep Falcone/Maroni ahead of Penguin, or was he portrayed well enough for you to like how he was growing?
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When it comes to Earth-3 (aka the TV show Gotham), I would put Penguin and Falcone (and I guess Maroni) in the column of "good".

Also, Penguin is definitely a part of the mobster crowd and very far from the super-villain crowd in his depiction on the show.
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scarletspeed7 posted...

You know it also has a robot from a previous write-up. That should realistically be all you need.

A Prince Robot!

Seriously, go read Saga.

Lopen posted...

That is a pretty cool cat.

Lying.

Not actually lying but I had to make the reference.
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If Batman and Flash switched cities, would they be able to handle each other's rogues?
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Yes. No question.
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Oh boy, Batman would wipe the floor with the Rogues.

Not as much as the Flash wiping the floor with Batman's pitiful villains.
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The Flash is no match for Kite Man.
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Does Batman have just a straight super scientist villain? I know he has villains who specialize in mind control science or ice science or whatever, but does he have someone who just does generic evil science like Luthor or Sivana? Because I figure Batman has no ability to handle Reverse Flash and I don't know enough about Grodd, all of my knowledge of him is from the Justice League cartoon where he's also a super scientist.
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Batman can beat Reverse-Flash.
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scarletspeed7 posted...

#104 - The Will Nominated by: Eddv
First Appearance: Saga #1 (Mar. 2012)
Created by: Brian K. Vaughan and Fiona Staples

Fundamentals: 7/10
Track Record: 7/10
Scarlet Factor: 5/10

Go read Saga. That is all.

Man why do people do this, this never makes me want to check out the source material
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Pram_the_Oracle posted...

scarletspeed7 posted...

#104 - The Will Nominated by: Eddv
First Appearance: Saga #1 (Mar. 2012)
Created by: Brian K. Vaughan and Fiona Staples

Fundamentals: 7/10
Track Record: 7/10
Scarlet Factor: 5/10

Go read Saga. That is all.

Man why do people do this, this never makes me want to check out the source material

Because I was told that if I had very little to say about the villains, I should do short write-ups so I didn't burn out my interest in this project. But please, continue.

Thank goodness you didn't nominate anything.
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Marvel Ares out first, expected.

I actually think I like him better as an Avenger anyway but I wanted both Ares on my list.
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Oh yeah Krona too.

I don't remember why I nominated him.

Don't like his shifting height and look.
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#102 - Queen of Fables Nominated by: Raka
First Appearance: JLA #47 (Nov. 2000)
Created by: Mark Waid and Bryan Hitch

Fundamentals: 6/10
Track Record: 7/10
Scarlet Factor: 7/10

Regina Mills in comic book form.

Queen of Fables wears fancy dresses and makes all the boys want to kiss Wonder Woman. If that's not enough to entice you to read a Justice League, story I don't know what will. In fact, this should be the plot of the next Justice League movie. Just blow up the Darkseid trilogy. Let's have the Queen of Fables turn Metropolis into Ye Olde Metropolis and watch the sparks fly.

There's really not much to say here; Queen of Fables was designed by Bryan Hitch, so you know there's a high level of quality here. She was created by Mark Waid, so you know there's a certain unique flair for the dramatic. And she runs around bringing the stories inside of any book she touches to life.

She was defeated by being trapped inside a tax book once. That really should be enough of an explanation for why comics are awesome.
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#101 - Prince Brandish Nominated by: trdl
First Appearance: Fables #95 (Jul. 2010)
Created by: Bill Willingham and Mark Buckingham

Fundamentals: 7/10
Track Record: 6/10
Scarlet Factor: 6/10

It's extremely rare for me to actually hate a villain. To truly have heel heat with me, you've really got to go above and beyond. You have to allow me to set aside the fact that I'm reading fiction and actually do something that pisses me off so much that literally the confines of fiction do nothing to stop the sheer fucktonery of animosity I experience. So livid do I become that if the boundaries of physics and reality did not separate us by a page, I would leap through the page and bop you one good right on the chin.

That is Prince Brandish.

Now, I'm not sure if I hated the storyline or if the villain himself actually caused me to hate him for his actions, but I prefer to believe the latter. Just utterly, utterly unforgivable. This guy came onto the page as what I thought was a poor man's Prince Charming, but Brandish turned out to be a heinous, despicable dick, and that's all for our benefit.

Willingham capture something special here.
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I hate characters often... though once again... you've added another character on this list of characters that are making Fables just that more interesting to me. Granted, my problem is I often hate characters meant to be hated, and there are very few cases where I like the character because of it.
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#100 - Roxy Richter Nominated by: Raka
First Appearance: Scott Pilgrim Gets It Together (Oct. 2007)
Created by: Bryan Lee O'Malley

Fundamentals: 6/10
Track Record: 7/10
Scarlet Factor: 6/10

Another solid character from Scott Pilgrim. I think that, generally speaking, Roxy is a great villain character. She was actually vastly superior to this version in the film, but even here you can't help but determine that unlike most of the other Evil Exes, she actually misses Ramona. It's nice to see Ramona kind of matter for once in a story, too.

I really can't comment too much on these Evil Exes because they are really nothing more than bursts of great personality that flare out quickly. That's the nature of a one-shot villain done well; they leave you wanting more, but there's not much else to say.
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WickIebee posted...

I hate characters often... though once again... you've added another character on this list of characters that are making Fables just that more interesting to me. Granted, my problem is I often hate characters meant to be hated, and there are very few cases where I like the character because of it.

Fables is brilliant. Go read it.
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I definitely agree. Although I will say that the ending didn't really resonate with me and I think Willingham was really exhausted at that point. I'm glad they're finding ways to keep it alive with the Telltale series and the Everafter mini-series.
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scarletspeed7 posted...

I definitely agree. Although I will say that the ending didn't really resonate with me and I think Willingham was really exhausted at that point. I'm glad they're finding ways to keep it alive with the Telltale series and the Everafter mini-series.

Yeah, the ending was "fine" but pales compared to everything else. There were tons of loose ends to wrap up, and Willingham didn't have the gas in the tank to give each its due.

What's this Everafter series?
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davidponte posted...

The Flash is no match for Kite Man.

Speaking of Kite Man I just read Batman #27 and it's easily my favourite issue of King's run so far.
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#99 - Mister Sinister (Nathaniel Essex) Nominated by: MarquessLess
First Appearance: Uncanny X-Men #227 (Sep. 1987)
Created by: Chris Claremont and Marc Silvestri

Fundamentals: 7/10
Track Record: 6/10
Scarlet Factor: 6/10

There was a fantastic version of Mister Sinister that adopted and raised the Summers boys as his own children. This is not that version.

There was a fantastic version of Mister Sinister that was just a crazy guy who believed a figment of imagination named Apocalypse was a death god demanding he tear the world asunder. This is not that version.

Even prior to his rebirth as Sinister, Nathaniel Essex was obsessed with genetics and mutation. After meeting Apocalypse and being reborn, Sinister has sought to perfect life through manipulating DNA. He is willing to do whatever it takes to achieve this perfection, including working for and against Apocalypse, killing hundreds of mutants, working with the Nazis, and experimenting on his dead son. The cold war between Sinister and Apocalypse is probably the most intriguing relationship amongst X-Men villains, and I wish it as featured more prominently in the franchise.

Sinister has also taken a particular interest in the Summers bloodline, believing it to be a key to creating a being powerful enough to permanently destroy Apocalypse. His thirst for knowledge and power never fully satisfied, Sinister shows up whenever he needs more information for his twisted experiments. This lust for knowledge really highlights the Victor Frankenstein nature of Sinister, and it allows X-Men, a series rife with villains seeking to exploit the mutant gene, to have yet another villain with a redundant motive. However, this is the very best version of a story constantly featured in the Mutie franchise, so much love to the Earl of Essex.
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#98 - Man-Bat (Kirk Langstrom) Nominated by: bullhogderbaxer
First Appearance: Detective Comics #400 (Jun. 1970)
Created by: Frank Robbins, Neal Adams and Julius Schwartz

Fundamentals: 8/10
Track Record: 5/10
Scarlet Factor: 6/10

Man-Bat is probably the greatest character to debut in an anniversary issue.

As you're probably already aware at this point, I love foils. I love complementary characters. Man-Bat is certainly a foil to Batman, one that lets the animalistic cowl overtake the human beneath. That's important for a number of reasons. Without the rational mind, Batman is a beast - consider that Batman already walks a fine line between society and anarchy. Between justice and retribution. But remove the compunction to fulfill society's need for a protector and a policeman, and Batman could easily stray down this path. It's a path without civilization.

Man-Bat has quietly mirrored Batman in many ways; he's developed a Batwoman and a Robin of sorts, and he even had a Bat-Cave of his own for a while. Man-Bat is the type of character where, if you really wanted to, you could explore a Jekyll and Hyde type of sensibility. Or a Hulk. What I love about Man-Bat is that there's really no going back for him (for the most part). That little piece of human trapped in the mind of the monster weeps for what he's lost from time to time. I think that's heartbreaking and fantastic. For all the other times, however, we get mediocre stories sadly. But when Man-Bat is done right, it's done fantastically well.
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The only thing I remember Man-Bat for is that he's the first villain featured on Batman TAS.
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Quite cool info that he's been used as a complete foil with having his own Batwoman and Robin. I only knew him from TAS, where he was just... Not much.
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Which of Spiderman's villains could Batman not handle? Because most of them it feels like he could manage.
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Was he? I though Scarecrow was the first
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On Leather Wings was the first episode produced, and in fact, The Cat and the Claw Part 1 was the first episode ever aired.
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Bump.
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Anagram posted...

Which of Spiderman's villains could Batman not handle? Because most of them it feels like he could manage.

I'm pretty sure of this, he can manage all of them a lot quicker than Spiderman can. A better question is which of Batman's villains would kill Spiderman first ;)
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Honestly, Spider-Man has no chance against Prometheus.
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What are the limits on Spider-Sense, anyway? I remember it once triggered when Galactus decided to go to Earth, but I don't remember it triggering on something so broad again.
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Anagram posted...

What are the limits on Spider-Sense, anyway? I remember it once triggered when Galactus decided to go to Earth, but I don't remember it triggering on something so broad again.

The limits on Spider-Sense are, "Hey, I'm a new writer! I'm going to overhaul Spider-Sense since it is not consistent from creative team to creative team. This time, we're going to have Spider_Man get triggered by massive universe altering events even though they do not present as immediate threats to Spidey. Then next week, Venom wont register as a threat.
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