Board 8 > Do you take umbrage with John McEnroe's comment on Serena Williams?

(+) Yeah! (+)

People are pissed at him for this NPR inteview!

GARCIA-NAVARRO: We're talking about male players, but there [are] of course wonderful female players. Let's talk about Serena Williams. You say she is the best female player in the world in the book.

MCENROE: Best female player ever — no question.

GARCIA-NAVARRO: Some wouldn't qualify it; some would say she's the best player in the world. Why qualify it?

MCENROE: Oh! Uh, she's not, you mean, the best player in the world, period?

GARCIA-NAVARRO: Yeah, the best tennis player in the world. You know, why say female player?

MCENROE: Well, because if she was in, if she played the men's circuit, she'd be, like, 700 in the world.

GARCIA-NAVARRO: You think so?

MCENROE: Yeah. That doesn't mean I don't think Serena is an incredible player. I do, but the reality of what would happen would be I think something that perhaps it'd be a little higher, perhaps it'd be a little lower. And on a given day, Serena could beat some players. I believe because she's so incredibly strong mentally that she could overcome some situations where players would choke 'cause she's been in it so many times, so many situations at Wimbledon, the US Open, etc. But if she had to just play the circuit — the men's circuit — that would be an entirely different story.

Who's going to join me in boycotting any store that sells his book?
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Straight-up accidentally deleted a post. GameFAQs Mobile is a heck of a thing.

It's a weird comment.
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He isn't actually wrong. She has only ever played one ranked guy - #298 in the world - and she lost 6-1.
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He's right.
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There's nothing false about what he said.
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I think 700 in the world is probably selling her short, even if I do agree with the general sentiment.
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Yeah, he's totally right.
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they need to play once she's ready after the baby
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I love that gatorade commercial "genders don't play sports, athletes do"

Then why do you need your own gender-based leagues lulz
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The Mana Sword posted...

I think 700 in the world is probably selling her short, even if I do agree with the general sentiment.

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I think 700 is a bit harsh. Scarlet's post above is true, but it's out of context. Serena wasn't even 18 when that happened. I have heard that that women's tennis balls are covered in some substance that makes them faster, so that would hurt serena's serve and overall play a bit, but prime serena I would be willing to bet that serena would beat the man, or any man in around 200. She's is one of the greatest women's players of all time. Serena's advantage over her peers is her build, but while that advantage goes away against men, it doesn't necessarily put her at a disadvantage against those lower ranked guys, I'm sure she would be on equal footing with them physically. Obviously this is just based on feel since I can't go down a list of the 300-200 ranked guys and say "Win, win, win" etc, but I just have a hard time believing that the top ranked woman for so long in her prime couldn't beat the 600th best man in his prime.

Of course, that's not to say she could go toe to toe with guys like fed or djokovic or nadal or murray, those guys are way out of her league. I'm just talking the fodder men.
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EndOfDiscOne posted...

GARCIA-NAVARRO: Some wouldn't qualify it; some would say she's the best player in the world. Why qualify it?

I agree with 700 being a bit harsh, but this is the most ridiculous comment in the interview
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MZero11 posted...

EndOfDiscOne posted...

GARCIA-NAVARRO: Some wouldn't qualify it; some would say she's the best player in the world. Why qualify it?

I agree with 700 being a bit harsh, but this is the most ridiculous comment in the interview

Absolutely.
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Yeah I love Serena, but she's not taking down Andy Murray or Novak, or Federer from a few years ago. Sorry, that's not how that works.
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I also have to believe that there's a very good reason we haven't ever seen Serena try to play a, say, Top 30-50 male player in the world.

Such an event could make a lot of money as an exhibition match given her fame or whatever. She'd be advancing the cause of feminism and what have you. So why wouldn't she go out there and give a press conference making an open challenge to such people? There's really no downside aside from "Is pretty certain she would lose."

Basically, if she really believed she could enter the mens draw at Wimbledon and be competitive, she would have done just that, or at the very least, attempted to do just that. She never has. Figure it out.
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https://youtu.be/ezwjJxXS718?t=288
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Why is this even a discussion? The only thing that could be argued is whether the number 700 would be completely accurate. She would be nowhere near the top 200, that's for sure.
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Oh and to be even more frank about this. We don't actually have "mens sports" and "womens sports" when it comes to league structure. What we actually have is "best players" and "best female players" leagues.

If someone with the stature of Serena Williams demanded to be allowed to participate in the qualifiers for a mens draw of a major tournament, I'm quite sure they would let her. Similarly, if an NBA team legitimately thought that a WNBA player could play at the NBA level, they'd give her a tryout.
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What he said is right and sexist, obviously
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Keep in mind that the one set she played against the 200th ranked guy occurred two hours after he had just played a full round of golf with friends and drank a few beers.

After the game, he said the only reason he lost a game was because of indifference on his part. I'm sure he just said that to save face in his own head, but the first sentence is undeniably true.
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It's factual, just lacks tact in this environment

Same applies for nearly all other sports
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voltch posted...

It's factual, just lacks tact in this environment

Same applies for nearly all other sports

Asuka could shoot beat Roman Reigns
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I think shed beat the 650th, but struggle with the 649th
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god i couldnt care less. i cant even think of anything i care less about
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SmartMuffin posted...

Oh and to be even more frank about this. We don't actually have "mens sports" and "womens sports" when it comes to league structure. What we actually have is "best players" and "best female players" leagues.

Does this extend to things like bowling and pool?
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The important thing is the actual truth, not context of the statement.

If she'd lose to that 700th guy, well, it's fair. Period. "Sexist" is a buzzword.
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Jakyl25 posted...

SmartMuffin posted...

Oh and to be even more frank about this. We don't actually have "mens sports" and "womens sports" when it comes to league structure. What we actually have is "best players" and "best female players" leagues.

Does this extend to things like bowling and pool?

I know nothing about how those leagues are structured, but I would assume so?

Are there female bowlers who are just as good as male ones, but are forbidden to compete in the top bowling league? I feel like that would be a scandal if true (and correctly so!)
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I mean we know that even NASCAR, which is about as red-tribe of a sport that will ever exist, welcomed female drivers with open arms (and an extensive marketing campaign).

Golf which is rich white men only territory has allowed female competitors on PGA tour events, haven't they?
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SmartMuffin posted...

I mean we know that even NASCAR, which is about as red-tribe of a sport that will ever exist, welcomed female drivers with open arms

hahahahahahahahaha
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SmartMuffin posted...

Are there female bowlers who are just as good as male ones, but are forbidden to compete in the top bowling league? I feel like that would be a scandal if true (and correctly so!)

I mean, there are women who can bowl a 300 game, and AFAIK they don't play championships with men. Someone correct me if this is false since I haven't checked in many years.
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Also I like that there is starting to be a small push for combining actors and actresses into singular award categories.

It certainly would help the Oscars run time!
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I wish they would combine actors and supporting actors because let's be honest - supporting actor roles are always better than lead roles.
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foolm0r0n posted...

What he said is right and sexist, obviously

So what should he have said?
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She could beat prime roger Federer obviously
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EndOfDiscOne posted...

GARCIA-NAVARRO: Some wouldn't qualify it; some would say she's the best player in the world. Why qualify it?

Actually this is the more offensive comment.

Forget even mentioning Federer, Nadal, Djokovic or Murray because it would be an asinine suggestion to say the least. Just try imagining Serena playing someone like Del Potro, Raonic or even a Fognini or a Verdasco. I don't see any scenario where she doesn't get double bagelled.

This female revolution thing for Women's sports is great and I love that women are treated equally important as men like they should but there is a certain point where you just draw a line.

Just imagine these ridiculous male/female match ups in your head and tell me they are equals with a straight face.

Federer/Serena - 5 set Wimbledon Match

Best NBA team/Best WNBA team - Series Playoffs (sorry don't watch basketball but I know the ridiculous difference between the NBA and WNBA teams)

Barcelona F.C/FIFA Women's Dream Team

Cain Velasquez/Amanda Numes - UFC Heavyweight Championship

Brock Lesnar/Charlotte - WWE Championship
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Axl_Rose_85 posted...

EndOfDiscOne posted...

GARCIA-NAVARRO: Some wouldn't qualify it; some would say she's the best player in the world. Why qualify it?

Actually this is the more offensive comment.

Forget even mentioning Federer, Nadal, Djokovic or Murray because it would be an asinine suggestion to say the least. Just try imagining Serena playing someone like Del Potro, Raonic or even a Fognini or a Verdasco. I don't see any scenario where she doesn't get double bagelled.

This female revolution thing for Women's sports is great and I love that women are treated equally important as men like they should but there is a certain point where you just draw a line.

Just imagine these ridiculous male/female match ups in your head and tell me they are equals with a straight face.

Federer/Serena - 5 set Wimbledon Match

Best NBA team/Best WNBA team - Series Playoffs (sorry don't watch basketball but I know the ridiculous difference between the NBA and WNBA teams)

Barcelona F.C/FIFA Women's Dream Team

Cain Velasquez/Amanda Numes - UFC Heavyweight Championship

Brock Lesnar/Charlotte - WWE Championship

actually, this post kind of gets to the point of it

people will call floyd mayweather or andre ward the best boxer on earth, but there's no way they could handle anthony joshua or wladimir klistchko

so in that sense, calling serena #1 is understandable, even if she wouldn't beat everyone she was matched against
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Axl_Rose_85 posted...

Brock Lesnar/Charlotte - WWE Championship

wouldn't this one just depend on the script?
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Kenri posted...

Axl_Rose_85 posted...

Brock Lesnar/Charlotte - WWE Championship

wouldn't this one just depend on the script?

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Axl_Rose_85 posted...

Best NBA team/Best WNBA team - Series Playoffs (sorry don't watch basketball but I know the ridiculous difference between the NBA and WNBA teams)

This might be the biggest beatdown of them all. I'm not sure the best WNBA team would even score a basket outside of just heaving it full court and hoping it goes in.
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Emeraldegg posted...

Axl_Rose_85 posted...

Best NBA team/Best WNBA team - Series Playoffs (sorry don't watch basketball but I know the ridiculous difference between the NBA and WNBA teams)

This might be the biggest beatdown of them all. I'm not sure the best WNBA team would even score a basket outside of just heaving it full court and hoping it goes in.

Surely a Superbowl winning side against the top Women's American Football side would be even crazier?
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woodman posted...

Kenri posted...

Axl_Rose_85 posted...

Brock Lesnar/Charlotte - WWE Championship

wouldn't this one just depend on the script?

Asuka would shoot beat Brock Lesnar in a fight.
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Emeraldegg posted...

Axl_Rose_85 posted...

Best NBA team/Best WNBA team - Series Playoffs (sorry don't watch basketball but I know the ridiculous difference between the NBA and WNBA teams)

This might be the biggest beatdown of them all. I'm not sure the best WNBA team would even score a basket outside of just heaving it full court and hoping it goes in.

What about best female WNBA player vs. Menji
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He might have exaggerated the ranking, but he's right. He was asked the question point blank and he answered it, so I have no issue with him saying it. It was a bad question more than anything else.
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Up here in snowy Canada, the Women's National Hockey Team (arguably the best in the world, toss up with the USA), plays "warmup" matches against AAA high school kids (essentially high school All-stars from whatever city they are in), and the women routinely get beat
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LeonhartFour posted...

He might have exaggerated the ranking, but he's right. He was asked the question point blank and he answered it, so I have no issue with him saying it. It was a bad question more than anything else.

Yeah this is where I'm at. The concept (the best women can't beat the really good men) is right, but he acted flabbergasted that the question was even asked, so he probably just pulled a number out of his head. Even if the number itself was too low imo
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700 doesn't even sound that low to me. That's a pretty good ranking.
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SeabassDebeste posted...

people will call floyd mayweather or andre ward the best boxer on earth, but there's no way they could handle anthony joshua or wladimir klistchko

so in that sense, calling serena #1 is understandable, even if she wouldn't beat everyone she was matched against

I don't know much about boxing but I still think this is a bad analogy.

The point isn't that Serena can't beat 100% of men she might be hypothetically matched against. The point is that she couldn't beat anyone in the Top 50 (uncontroversial) - 700 (maybe controversial).

My guess is that Floyd Mayweather probably could beat, or at least could be competitive against, the #500 heavyweight boxer in the world.

You could cut things however you wanted to for Serena - by weight, by playing style, by surface, by whatever. It doesn't matter. The top 100 men at any given variable among those will still smoke her.
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If you want to argue that Serena is the most accomplished or most dominant tennis player relative to her competition, that's an argument that can be made. It just depends on how you define "best," I guess. If it's "could beat anybody ever," then Serena's not in the discussion.
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LeonhartFour posted...

If you want to argue that Serena is the most accomplished or most dominant tennis player relative to her competition, that's an argument that can be made. It just depends on how you define "best," I guess. If it's "could beat anybody ever," then Serena's not in the discussion.

I mean it's like saying that the Uconn womens basketball team is the "greatest basketball team ever" because they won 100 games in a row over the course of 3 years or whatever it was. I mean okay, maybe they are the most dominant relative to their competition, but they'd still get smoked by any Division 2 mens team.
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I've always associated "the greatest" with enduring legacy and "the best" with how their physical and mental acuity combines with their skill at a specific sport.
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