Board 8 > ~FIGHT!~ Rikku, Tira, Yu Narukami, Doomguy, Bass.EXE vs. Ryu

(+) Yeah! (+)

I responded to what you said there as to why it's relevant he didn't have any explicit training scene in the rest of the post. I'll ask you to read the rest rather than repeat myself.
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Akihiko dodges bullets in the prologue to his Arena chapter. Granted not in the sense of "Going around the bullets" so much as "Reads the twitching of a gun in someone's hand and moves in the proper direction to not be there when it goes off", but still pretty crazy
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Wanglicious posted...

taki's one of those that i'd take over him without magic. with it... closer fight, depends on where they're at/what they're doing. but she should be capable of dealing with his higher speed. most of the rest shown there, they'd lose.

Would absolutely take Mitsurugi over him, too. The dude is light of foot enough to literally run over individual row boats while chopping arrows out of the air and having rifle bullets strike off of him.

I just don't buy the hype for Crono's speed since nothing suggests he could keep it up, and speed =/= reaction time, anyway.
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Like to put it in more simple terms

Bog standard RPG progression is enough to make you decent

Someone like Crono to get the hype he gets from some? Needs to be more than a bit more
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i'd take Crono over Mitsurugi simply because Frog exists. if Crono's been fighting with and sparring with a guy who's stronger, faster, and more agile, then there's little reason to think Crono couldn't beat Mitsurugi too.
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Wanglicious posted...

i'd take Crono over Mitsurugi simply because Frog exists. if Crono's been fighting with and sparring with a guy who's stronger, faster, and more agile, then there's little reason to think Crono couldn't beat Mitsurugi too.

That's still getting into hypotheticals.

Did they spar? How hard did they go at it? Etc. etc.

There's nothing concrete there.
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I like how there's just assumed sparring time, even assumed details of how it went,given to Crono where fighting game characters need everything explicit

Who has the double standard again?
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while technically hypothetical, you do have Frog himself explicitly state direct interest in fighting Crono when they run into each other the first time. it's not visibly shown to you but it's extremely likely that it happened. both have an interest in it, there's respect between 'em, etc. though if anything i think you'd take issue to my saying Frog is a better Mitsurugi.

Lopen posted...

where fighting game characters need everything explicit

where'd i say this.
you shouldn't need to resort to lying about someone arguing against you.
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I mean, here's my problem with it.

We don't know if Crono sparred with Frog. We don't know how hard they went at it if they did, who won, etc. It's one big question mark.

We do know Raphael fought Nightmare. We know Raphael almost won. That's concrete.

Going "Well, Crono spars with Frog who is better, so he'd beat Raphael" just seems silly because it's arguing hypothetical, unknown facts over feats we already know.

I'm not saying Raphael would beat Crono, but "Crono spars with Frog" is not a feat to list for why he wouldn't because it's not a feat that legitimately exists.
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Wanglicious posted...

while technically hypothetical, you do have Frog himself explicitly state direct interest in fighting Crono when they run into each other the first time. it's not visibly shown to you but it's extremely likely that it happened. both have an interest in it, there's respect between 'em, etc. though if anything i think you'd take issue to my saying Frog is a better Mitsurugi.

Well I didn't feel the need to humor that. >_>
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Wanglicious posted...

where'd i say this.
you shouldn't need to resort to lying about someone arguing against you.

Never said it, but never given credit to anything but that was explicitly stated as a fight or feat to a fighting game character to my recollection. Part of the reason you trash Tira at that -- cause general lore doesn't paint her a joke but she's low on wins and feats.

Hell I don't think you've ever hyped Ken's sparring time with Ryu and that IS explicit
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Lopen posted...

Honestly that Tank is of questionable quality anyway. It's from well before the tech of legit tanks and the general feeling of that whole segment is kinda that the castle is full of buffoons. Do we actually know he cut through it or did he hit it till it fell apart.

whats the tank made of, paper?
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...actually looking at the script, there's two points where it's directly addressed.

the first time, when they finish the first time in 600 AD.

Frog: Crono, you've the makings of a great swordsman.

and the second, when they return back to 600 AD.

Frog: Ah, Crono! What brings you here? Come to practice your swordplay?

after that, Frog becomes a permanent party member.


StealThisSheen posted...

I'm not saying Raphael would beat Crono, but "Crono spars with Frog" is not a feat to list for why he wouldn't because it's not a feat that legitimately exists.

and i'm not talking about Raphael but Mitsurugi specifically. Frog is an agile, strong, and skilled swordsman who relies mostly on surprising strength and technique. Mitsurugi is a less agile, strong, and skilled swordsman who relies mostly on strength and technique. that's the overlap. considering Frog himself wants to do it and we're dealing with a silent protagonist who seems to say yes to everything and is seen training in the opening vid, it's extremely likely that this was a regular occurrence. basically Crono should be used to dealing with that kind of fighter and Frog is a better version.
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Sticks his sword into the metal of it, there are electrical sparks, swings his sword to the right, the tank explodes. Putting SNES graphical limitations aside, it seems heavily implied he cut the damn thing in half
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Wanglicious posted...

Mitsurugi is a less agile, strong, and skilled swordsman who relies mostly on strength and technique

Actually, Mitsurugi's whole thing is wanting to prove that the sword is better than the gun, so he trains in speed/agility as well, as evidenced by the fact that he is literally running over individual rowboats in water as if it's second nature in the SC2 opening. WHILE chopping arrows in half as they're being fired at him. And getting hit by rifle fire. And he doesn't even stumble. Now THAT is a feat over "They probably sparred maybe." >_>
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Lopen posted...

Never said it, but never given credit to anything but that was explicitly stated as a fight or feat to a fighting game character to my recollection. Part of the reason you trash Tira at that -- cause general lore doesn't paint her a joke but she's low on wins and feats.

...general lore is the biggest reason why i don't respect the SC universe, it's really low. there's a few people with higher power but it's a terribly weak universe, so being rather unimpressive there doesn't translate very well. first question is always the scale involved and the second is how they're doing what they're doing. the second tends to value feats and personality more, which fighting games do tend to be full of, though often this is of questionable canon. do think fighters have been better at that issue lately though.

Lopen posted...

Hell I don't think you've ever hyped Ken's sparring time with Ryu and that IS explicit

pretty sure this is wrong as i do respect Ken's fighting capabilities.
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pretty sure this is wrong as i do respect Ken's fighting capabilities.

Confirming that I remember Wang hyping up the fact Ken broke a punching bag with one hit and explaining why that was hype in M3.
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KanzarisKelshen posted...

pretty sure this is wrong as i do respect Ken's fighting capabilities.

Confirming that I remember Wang hyping up the fact Ken broke a punching bag with one hit and explaining why that was hype in M3.

I remember this too

Never remember him hyping Ryu and drawing that back to Ken though
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Wanglicious posted...

Frog: Ah, Crono! What brings you here? Come to practice your swordplay?

Hey now. What if that's Frog just being a smug asshole because they did spar and he beat Crono so badly that now he's rubbing it in.

"Ah, Crono! What brings YOU here? Come to... Practice your 'swordplay?' Mya-haha, if you can call it that!" -Smug Frog, Bastard AD
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This topic sure did get Wang'd.
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I also feel like in terms of RPG mechanics, the mere fact that Crono is a guy who endgame is going to critical hit 90% of the time at base probably speaks well of his skill even if the plot doesn't stop to address it. Off the top of my head, kind of like the Myrmidon classes in Fire Emblem where we can pretty well imply their skill by how they fight, even if the story never stops to handhold you and go "This dude is pretty good with a sword"
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Crono is legit as fuck, and only haters don't think he is great.
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StealThisSheen posted...

Actually, Mitsurugi's whole thing is wanting to prove that the sword is better than the gun, so he trains in speed/agility as well, as evidenced by the fact that he is literally running over individual rowboats in water as if it's second nature in the SC2 opening. >_>

well, it was for those games. then he kinda went on to standard "i want to be the strongest!" type logic. which still ain't bad. but i assume you're suggesting that he's got quicker reflexes than Frog (agility still probably goes to the frog since... he's got weird Froggy mobility to him), which seems possible, sure. he's a katana fighter too after all and that's the field Crono should be best at (katana fighters > sword fighters in speed according to typical anime tropes).


for what it's worth, i don't know much about him from SC5 beyond he went nuts and focused on being the strongest. did he have some massive improvements there?
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Wanglicious posted...

for what it's worth, i don't know much about him from SC5 beyond he went nuts and focused on being the strongest. did he have some massive improvements there?

Well, he fights even with Algol, who is basically a god that was on of the first/longest wielder of Soul Edge and actually resisted its influence to use it for good and gave it most of its power. He also created Soul Calibur. And uses replicas of both/the power from both as his weapons.

The fight abruptly ends/Algol disappears before the fight concludes, though, so Mitsurugi basically spends V looking for him to finish the fight.
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So, I wanna chime in that the whole "Is a Persona magic?" argument seems kinda silly, because the easiest way to solve that is Silence in the games seals you from using ANY Persona skills (physical included), and in Persona 4 Arena, the Silence status also stops you from summoning your Persona even for regular attacks.

Also, I don't think Yu is particularly impressive at all without his Persona, even in Arena. His best stuff is easily double-teaming both sides with Izanagi, spells, or the electric slide, none of which he's doing without the Persona. Like I've got low Crono respect, but no-magic from both sides, I'd take him over Yu. Yu with no persona is stomped by a lot of 2/weeks handily.
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Lopen posted...

Never remember him hyping Ryu and drawing that back to Ken though

to be fair, Ryu and Ken are significantly apart and i'm not sure what there is to do there since... what would it be? that he's trained with a better version of himself? ideally you'd be referencing a different kind of fighter, something more like Sol/Ky (rivals), Kyo/Terry (two guys just kinda there mostly on the same side), etc. hell, i'd expect Team KOF to have had their asses kicked by Terry a bunch of times that yeah, it'd be relevant if they fought someone who had a somewhat similar style.
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KJH posted...

So, I wanna chime in that the whole "Is a Persona magic?" argument seems kinda silly, because the easiest way to solve that is Silence in the games seals you from using ANY Persona skills (physical included), and in Persona 4 Arena, the Silence status also stops you from summoning your Persona even for regular attacks.

The argument isn't "Are Personas the game's form of 'magic'." It's whether it's actually magical in nature, or if it's more spiritual.

The consensus we've come to is the latter.
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He has a point though, if Personas are entirely non magical and all from within why would silence have any effect on the summoning of them at all?
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MenuWars posted...

He has a point though, if Personas are entirely non magical and all from within why would silence have any effect on the summoning of them at all?

I would assume because the game wanted a status effect that keeps you from using them. I don't think much thought was put into it. Maybe "Well, they shout "PERSONA" when they summon them, so... Silence!" at best.
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So a game mechanic that counters the lore... I dunno what to think about that, so I'll just say meh cus it's irrelevant.
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No reference to Silence is ever made in the storyline, anyway. The only time a Persona is ever "sealed" from being used is in Persona 4 Arena, when the characters see their shadows and thus mentally trick themselves into thinking they can't summon their Personas because of it.
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I'd say that's another good reason that they're not magic and that "Silence" is just a game mechanic added for difficulty's sake: Persona users have been shown to be able to mentally trick themselves into not being able to summon their personas.

If it was just magic, the summoning should still happen regardless. But when Yosuke sees his shadow, for instance, he believes that his Persona became his Shadow again, and because of this belief/uncertainty, he isn't able to successfully summon his Persona until afterward. That feeds into the whole inner strength/belief again... Because once he thinks he's beaten his Shadow, he can summon again just fine... Even though he always could and the only thing holding him back was his own uncertainty.
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Status ailments in Megaten are a big deal, though. If summoning a Persona had nothing at all to do with magic, they'd simply seal spells instead of physical skills too.

Like, there's major characters that die in games like Soul Hackers directly as a result of Silence status infliction. Or Charm inflicted in cutscenes of SMT4. Or paralysis in SMT1.
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KJH posted...

Status ailments in Megaten are a big deal, though. If summoning a Persona had nothing at all to do with magic, they'd simply seal spells instead of physical skills too.

Like, there's major characters that die in games like Soul Hackers directly as a result of Silence status infliction. Or Charm inflicted in cutscenes of SMT4. Or paralysis in SMT1.

SMT and Persona are not the same thing, though. Applying one's guidelines to the other doesn't work.

I doubt Silence was used in Persona as "We need to show they're magic!" It was "We want a way to seal the Persona for gameplay reasons." Only sealing half of their attacks doesn't make sense to begin with, so using "Well, it seals them all" doesn't mean much.
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looking at status effects, KJH has an unusual point here.


in Persona 3, Panic was the status that would prevent Persona usage.
http://megamitensei.wikia.com/wiki/Status_Changes_in_Persona_3

in Persona 4, this was changed with the addition of Silence.
http://megamitensei.wikia.com/wiki/Status_Changes_in_Persona_4

if you go back to the first Persona, it has Panic and Mute. aka, Panic/Confusion and Silence. it's Mute (Silence) that prevented usage of Persona.
http://megamitensei.wikia.com/wiki/Status_Changes_in_Persona


so there's a valid point being made here. P3 is the odd man out here where that status split doesn't exist. when it does, it seems to lock them down under Silence. P4A does the same thing too.
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I still don't think a gameplay mechanic that isn't referred to in story and isn't even consistent between games should override the lore, though. >_>
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I said Megaten though. It's still a part of the multiverse, I even included Soul Hackers in there! SMT If and Devil Summoner very directly connect to Persona games (like, characters from one show up in the other and everything). There's even a whole incident of fighting a devil summoner in one of the Persona 2 games with comments made on the difference between the persona users and devil summoner, like directly bringing up magnetite.

If you had all magical power sealed in any Persona game, you unquestionably have your entire Persona sealed. Every single thing points to that in the games.
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KJH posted...

If you had all magical power sealed in any Persona game, you unquestionably have your entire Persona sealed. Every single thing points to that in the games.

But "magical power" is never referenced as even being a thing in Persona. And every other status effect has to do with mental/emotional status and not being able to cope with something, like Fear, Rage, Despair, Exhaustion, Hunger, etc. Why would Silence be different? I think you're just getting stuck on it being called "Silence."
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well, it seems that whenever Silence appears it's attributed to locking them down and the only times it doesn't are... once in P3? that's it? Atlus had a chance to separate it from that completely but actively went back to it with P4, P4A, P4AU, and P5.

it's not something to blatantly ignore, that's definitely odd. it's been called Silence, it's been called Mute. gotta remember older Persona games were a lot closer related with demons so maybe there was something different about their summoning too. this could also mean that the difference in summoning for P3 and P4 is more fundamental; whereas in 3 it's more of a psychic connection and related to Nyx/shadows, it may be the odd man out and the other entries use more of a magical base.
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Again, though. Exhaustion. Despair. Confusion. Fear. Rage. Hunger. Dizzy.

Those all fit a theme.

You're arguing "Silence" is the standout. It just doesn't make sense that it's like "Here's all these status effects that impact mental state......... And then here's one that randomly targets magic that is never referenced anywhere."

I literally think they just called it Silence because that's the RPG standard for an effect that effectively seals the "magic" of the game.

I was joking before, but I'd sooner think they thought "They have to shout 'Persona!' when they attack with a Persona, so if they can't shout that, they can't attack" than think Silence is put in to specifically infer actual magic when it'd be the only thing that does, and is never referenced anywhere but gameplay.
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Wanglicious posted...

this could also mean that the difference in summoning for P3 and P4 is more fundamental; whereas in 3 it's more of a psychic connection and related to Nyx/shadows, it may be the odd man out and the other entries use more of a magical base.

Eh, the P3 and P4 cast have interacted in two games, now, and have never suggested anything is different. And P5 goes even further in the direction of mental/psychic relations since it's literally about going into places created by people's minds and changing their cognition.
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Also, for the record, I'm pretty sure the attacks that cause Silence in Persona 5 are Psio/Psychic element.

Sorry for the triple post.
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well no, if it targets your ability to use magic that's still impacting your mental state. the two shouldn't be viewed separately there, the inability to use one of your senses should be considered as that too.

the unusual point about it is that the only game where this split doesn't exist is P3, meaning they actually brought it back. if P1 and P2 focused more on actual demons and P3 focused on the self, why is it back in P4?
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I really don't get the argument though. There's never a plot instance of silence being cast on the party, but in gameplay you can have it cast on you and it has very obvious effects, and they even translated that to real time with Arena. In a related Megaten game, a boss that casts silence spells fatally wounds another important devil summoner and he attributes it afterwards entirely to the silence and not being able to cure it.

The implication of Silence/Mute is as universal an RPG mechanic as Poison. No magic, and summoning a Persona for anything (even for things other than spells) gets stuffed by it. Like two completely different gameplay systems for this same exact character corroborate it, it's use in plot is untested either way, and other games in the series have treated plot status ailments as real deals.

Also, Poison's not a state of mind and is a Persona status ailment. >_>
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oh. P5 added a psychic element?
hm. so would that mean silence/mute in the Persona series is different than Silence/Mute in the rest of megaten in that it neutralizes a psychic effect as opposed to a magical one? or maybe it'd impact both?

i mean going back to the idea of "you can't summon a persona if you don't believe you can" type logic, if the users themselves don't feel they can summon it due to being silenced, they can't. would be a magical effect that creates a mental block on the persona user as opposed to anything fundamentally related to magic.
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Wanglicious posted...

well no, if it targets your ability to use magic that's still impacting your mental state. the two shouldn't be viewed separately there, the inability to use one of your senses should be considered as that too.

the unusual point about it is that the only game where this split doesn't exist is P3, meaning they actually brought it back. if P1 and P2 focused more on actual demons and P3 focused on the self, why is it back in P4?

I'd say the reasonable explanation for why it's not in P3 is that you can't control your party in P3, so if it existed the game would end up damn near impossible at times because you'd have no way to cure it yourself without an item.

You can control your party in 4 on, so it's reasonable to be back in.
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KJH posted...

and other games in the series have treated plot status ailments as real deals.

Persona is literally a different series. Like, they flat out said it is.
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Wanglicious posted...

i mean going back to the idea of "you can't summon a persona if you don't believe you can" type logic, if the users themselves don't feel they can summon it due to being silenced, they can't. would be a magical effect that creates a mental block on the persona user as opposed to anything fundamentally related to magic.

I'd say this is the actual case, since we actually do have storyline examples of Personas being "sealed" by the user not believing they can summon it.

When Yosuke fights his shadow, the fight has you in a permanent "Silence" effect, pretty much, since you can't use your Persona. Yosuke literally stopped himself from using it because he didn't believe he could.

There was no magical reason for it. And if there actually was, I assume "General Teddie" would have done that. Instead, he had to trick them into doing it to themselves.
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StealThisSheen posted...

I'd say the reasonable explanation for why it's not in P3 is that you can't control your party in P3, so if it existed the game would end up damn near impossible at times because you'd have no way to cure it yourself without an item.

that can't be right, the status effect "Panic" in P3 did what Silence does in the other games.
Silence just didn't exist there, kinda wrapped up/altered into that one. then it exists again.

but if you think of silence/mute as mental blocks, it'd make sense. this isn't affecting your ability to cast magic per se, it's your thinking that you can cast it. the same way as, say, your thinking that you're mad (rage), hungry (hunger), or scared (fear). your mental state is altered in each of these and your actions change in each condition.
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Wanglicious posted...

that can't be right, the status effect "Panic" in P3 did what Silence does in the other games.
Silence just didn't exist there, kinda wrapped up/altered into that one. then it exists again.

but if you think of silence/mute as mental blocks, it'd make sense. this isn't affecting your ability to cast magic per se, it's your thinking that you can cast it. the same way as, say, your thinking that you're mad (rage), hungry (hunger), or scared (fear). your mental state is altered in each of these and your actions change in each condition.

To be fair, I'm pretty sure Panic ends on its own, whereas Silence doesn't?

I could be wrong.

Definitely agree with the rest, though. It also makes sense of why "Despair" can kill you.
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