Board 8 > ~FIGHT!~ Rikku, Tira, Yu Narukami, Doomguy, Bass.EXE vs. Ryu

(+) Yeah! (+)

I mean, play Persona 2 and tell me it's not related to other Megaten games. They flat out tell you that it is. >_>

Also as for the psychic stuff in P5, that's not right either. Psychic's not a related element at all to the Forget status, which is what stops all skill use there. The only relation it has to status ailments is that Psychic attacks do additional damage against enemies inflicted with Mental status ailments, but Forget is a Physiological status ailment.

http://megamitensei.wikia.com/wiki/List_of_Persona_5_Skills#Ailment
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Was Silence replaced by Forget in P5?
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i honestly don't remember P3 enough to know if it wore off by itself.



...and i guess to loop it back around to this specific instance, assuming the mental block hypothesis is correct, magic being removed from the field... shouldn't affect Yu because it's not directly applied to him?

he personally isn't blocked by it, he's not muted himself. it's just that there's no magic.
alternatively, it could affect him because he'd effectively block himself, thinking "no magic, no persona" and is now screwed.


and yeah, the first two Persona games are definitely not "other series," they're flatly megaten, with demons and all. back then, Silence/Mute probably was related to a magical effect, the summoning system was weirder and so was gaining access to another persona. they're as different series as devil summoner/survivor are from the main one. P3 is where things changed and it took on a very different tone as well as different enemies. P4 continued that. don't know P5.
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Yeah. It's body-based, like hunger, sleep, and dizzy. Also caused by the same spell as always (Makajam).
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Wanglicious posted...

and yeah, the first two Persona games are definitely not "other series," they're flatly megaten, with demons and all. back then, Silence/Mute probably was related to a magical effect, the summoning system was weirder and so was gaining access to another persona. they're as different series as devil summoner/survivor are from the main one. P3 is where things changed and it took on a very different tone as well as different enemies. P4 continued that. don't know P5.

As of P3 on, Atlus has been pretty adamant that it's different.

And... Yeah, I think that changes things, since Silence is gone in P5 and replaced by "Forget."

So it doesn't exist in P3/is part of Panic. It's Silence in P4. And it's Forget in P5.

So it's not even consistent in name/existing. >_>
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KJH posted...

Yeah. It's body-based, like hunger, sleep, and dizzy. Also caused by the same spell as always (Makajam).

Then doesn't that suggest it's not magic based? >_>
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They've not been adamant about it being different. They continue to have references, and even Mitsuru's family backstory is tied to the Nanjos of P1/P2, along with Igor continually being there.

The only thing they've done is wrote poorly in reference to other materials, because despite P5 even having posters of Rise and the Dancing All Night hamburger girl in it, the events that take place during that year in Tokyo are somehow completely ignored by the canonically established above-the-law Shadow Operatives? Like that's more of a glaring omission than any lack of involvement on the P1/P2's cast, especially considering P2's end that almost explicitly forbids that group from doing anything more.
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I think being body-based does more to say it's not a state of mind or emotions like you were saying it was earlier with rage/despair/etc. since those really are a different class of ailment.
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Okay. Let's say they're all related completely. Does it actually matter?

Silence does not exist in P3.
Silence does exist in P4, but never has any plot impact and P4A actually has the party have to be tricked into thinking they can't use their Personas instead of just... Sealing them
Silence has been changed to Forget in P5 and is a Physio attack/ailment, but the name "Forget" is more in line with it just being a mental block like in P4A
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KJH posted...

I think being body-based does more to say it's not a state of mind or emotions like you were saying it was earlier with rage/despair/etc. since those really are a different class of ailment.

They're still things that impact the mind. If you're hungry, dizzy, etc., you're not going to function right.

And there are other more magic-like classes, like Curse and Allmighty, but it's not one of those.
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We aren't arguing over Yu being silenced. We're arguing over his magic being sealed applying to Persona use, which Panic does in P3, Silence does in P4 and P4A (the games Yu is in), and Forget does in P5.

Nevermind any of the differences could just as easily be a matter of localization, but any time those status ailments hit, a Persona user just flat out cannot use their Persona.

Like there's nothing that points towards them being able to use personas if their magic is sealed and everything pointing towards them not being able to. All you've been able to say is that it doesn't happen in plot, but that seems really weird to then err on "well, they'd probably be totally invincible to it then" instead of what's closest to their gameplay. A sort of example is that in gameplay, characters clearly get hurt from taking enemy attacks. In plot, you see things like Akihiko at the start of P3 get hit by a shadow and breaking a rib as a result, which is a severe enough injury he's out of action for at least a month even with healing magic and medical care. Even without that happening, you wouldn't assume the P3 cast in plot would've been totally unharmed by shadows attacking them physically.
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The argument isn't "Can their magic be sealed"

Th argument is "Is what they do magic to begin with"

If it's not magic, then it's not going to be sealed like magic would be.

Nothing in game actually suggests the Personas are magic. They may USE magic, but the summoning itself has never been suggested to be magic, and the things that "seal" them haven't been magical in nature.

So saying "They can't use them if their magic is sealed" doesn't mean anything since the Persona world doesn't call it magic or infer it's magic. You're saying it's magic based on what "Silence" does in other games. But nothing else in the games suggests it's magic or that the "Silence" in P4 even works the same way. Silence stops the Personas, just like Panic and Forget. But there's no saying WHY it does it or how, and going "Well, magic, because it's that way in FF and stuff" doesn't fly.
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Are biotics chi?!?1?!1
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I mean, here's the thing. If Personas are magic and Silence actually seals them from using magic... Why does nobody just do that? Why go to the convoluted plan of making them think they can't use their Personas if they can just be sealed because they're magic?

That seems like a pretty big reason for why it's strictly a gameplay thing and isn't supposed to have that kind of logic to it. If there's legitimately a way to seal magic/Personas with Silence and it's not just a gameplay thing, why don't the villains do it? Why did "General Teddie" have to trick them?

It's much more logical that Silence/Forget are just gameplay representations of causing them to forget/think they can't access their Persona.
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You're kinda going ad hominem with saying nothing in the game suggests that persona are magic. Nothing suggests they AREN'T magic, given they get sealed by anti-magic status inflictions and are the sole source of using magic. That's a lot more to go off of than just saying they aren't magic because you don't believe the gameplay (which still doesn't really address the rest of it).
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KJH posted...

given they get sealed by anti-magic status inflictions

Tell me where it says Silence or Forget is an anti-magic status infliction.
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...That is a HUGE leap in logic.

Like, if they could be poisoned, why wouldn't the villains just poison the party to death? Since they didn't, that means the entire party must be immune to poison entirely.

The more logical reason is to inflict a status ailment like that, the characters have to not only be exposed to an ailment attack, but for it to be a permanent ailment (which it isn't), to successfully inflict it in the first place (ailments are rarely guaranteed), for the targets to not resist/null it (which some can), for them to have no means to heal it (there's items to cure status ailments), and for the one doing it to manage to do it to the entire team and successfully get away without being beaten to death.
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We've wasted enough time on this. We'll just have to agree to disagree.

You're just assuming Silence literally seals magic in Persona because that's what it does in other games, but nothing says that's what it does in Persona. Storyline situations suggest that "sealing" a Persona is done by making the user think they can't do it, or making them forget that they can, and not just by sealing some magic source. And P5 even changed the name to "Forget" which further fits the storyline instances.

I don't think we're going to change each other's minds, though, so we're good here.
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KJH posted...

The more logical reason is to inflict a status ailment like that, the characters have to not only be exposed to an ailment attack, but for it to be a permanent ailment (which it isn't), to successfully inflict it in the first place (ailments are rarely guaranteed), for the targets to not resist/null it (which some can), for them to have no means to heal it (there's items to cure status ailments), and for the one doing it to manage to do it to the entire team and successfully get away without being beaten to death.

You know, it's almost like gameplay and what actually happens in the story are often two different things or something. I mean, while you're trying to apply battle logic to story logic, why didn't the party just use a revival item on Shinjiro? I mean, if it happens in battle, then it applies to everything, right?
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man, it took you 4 minutes to go back on that.
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Wanglicious posted...

man, it took you 4 minutes to go back on that.

I intended to go to bed and didn't. >_>
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I don't know why this topic now has 300+ posts

and I don't intend on reading a single post to find out
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"Let's discuss the merits of Ryu." "Let's discuss Tira vs Crono again." "Let's argue Crono's merits in general." "Let's argue over the mechanics of Persona summoning."
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Personas are not magic. 'Silence' is the universal RPG lingo for not being able to use skills. It has nothing to do all the lore explicitly stating that Personas are spiritual. Dumb argument.
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I mean, personally I think Silence is universal RPG lingo for not being able to cast magic. Spiritual and magical aren't mutually exclusive, though. There's plenty of games where magic requires a spiritual aspect to cast it well, or that there's various schools of magic that all have their own unique methods for using them. Persona are beings brought into the world initially by magical means and the only way for humans to cast spells. This feels like Battler level denial to think magic has NOTHING to do with these creatures manifesting.
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what in the hell happened here
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trdl23 posted...

This topic sure did get Wang'd.

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I am so proud my stomp fight got the most posts of the week.
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Get in on the fun, what random character or mechanic do you want to discuss? I only got in by like post 275, so it's never too late to hijack the thread.
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Anyway you want the mind blowing reason silence does that in some games

These Persona kids play video games and Silence does that in video games and they think of their Personas like magic and they like to shout PERSONA!!! Thus mental block.

So it all comes down to whether Yu has played Final Fantasy 6 or not.
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hey man, if being me'd means that instead of a snoozefest you talk about various mechanics about those in the match, different levels of respect, and relate to recent, relevant matches, it should happen more often...!

honestly the one thing not talked about as much since Crono took focus was the issue of Yu, though that's in part because people seem to agree that he's not as good as Akihiko, Mitsuru, or the robots.

but i'd still take Ryu over Yu and Tira.

Lopen posted...

So it all comes down to whether Yu has played Final Fantasy 6 or not.

oh sure, it's always Terra's fault.
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Same on the Ryu > Yu, Tira front but it's irrelevant when they're not the only ones here he has to deal with. For example Ryu > Berserker Doom, he'd be much better off using weaponry against him and attack from afar, because I only see Doomguy being able to land a hit on Ryu if he's already engaged in combat with someone else, and well... Doomguy's berserking so it's not like he's gonna wait for the opportunity.
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I actually agree Doomguy would initially be warded off fairly easily, but he's not going down easily at all, so Ryu turns him aside, gets distracted by others, then it's RIP AND TEAR time
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I feel like "Crazy man with absurd physical strength charging right at you" is the kind of thing Ryu's probably dealt with easily in like, Balrog
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I take Ryu > Doom 2 Berserker Doomguy 100% of the time. I also take him over Persona-less Yu Narukami 100% of the time (maybe even with the persona as long as it's restricted to physical attacks). And lolTira.
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I mean are we talking Yu with a Persona? Cause that easily beats Ryu

Also *in canon* Yu beats Akihiko. Might best Mitsuru as well. The robots are too much though, they're obviously really strong.
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Yeah id Weltel is absurd, even if you relegate it to just Weltal ability it's a fight that Ryu would struggle with 1 v 1. Add in Bass with boosted powers and phasewalk and the poor guys in for a rough ride. Albeit a fairly swift demise as once Doomguy gets on top of him in the hubbub he'll just be torn to shreds.
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Ryu would beat Akihiko too, though. Akihiko's more focused on his own physicality than persona use, and Ryu would unquestionably stomp Akihiko into the dirt, even with Persona involved.
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This 'Ryu' is a beast...... can no one stop him..?
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Akihiko would easily beat Ryu unless you think he's enough of a meathead to ignore his Persona so they can have an HONORABLE DUEL.

Personas are strong.
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What's the basis on that? Akihiko clearly values physicality WAY above his persona strength, to the point that when trapped by those invisible walls in Arena, he resorts to punching his way out of them instead of summoning his Persona against them. All of his training, his moveset strengths and weaknesses, and even his design suggest that too. Even when he was singleminded in becoming powerful in P3, despite being a Persona user he thought his best course of action was obsessive physical training.

He's strong enough that his Persona doesn't add so much to him anymore, and the gap between him and Ryu is huge.
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Wow what a bargain, Ryu can beat everyone and he's only a 3/week
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'Akihiko prizes his own physical strength' -> 'Akihiko's Persona doesn't add much to him' is a huge logical leap. Akihiko likes training his body because it means a lot to him on a personal level, not because his Persona doesn't matter anymore. Having a Persona is a HUGE deal and effectively makes the user's physical prowess matter a lot less. Almost everyone in the Persona series is completely untrained before getting a Persona, but upon getting a Persona they become capable of great things. Case in point: Mitsuru is likely stronger than him and she doesn't train at all. One of the strongest party members in P4 is Yosuke, and he works at a supermarket. Personas are mental projections.

Without a Persona, Akihiko is more or less a B-tier Street Fighter. With a Persona he can fight the physical embodiment of death.
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Yeah, Akihiko is basically Teenage Ryu for all intents and purposes
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And by that I mean he has the obsessive training thing down already but isn't really there yet trainingwise
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KamikazePotato posted...

Mitsuru is likely stronger than him and she doesn't train at all

calling BS on that.
she's not going out there fighting bears or something but she's totally training too.

and i'd take Ryu over Akihiko or Yu 1 on 1, with or without their persona. it's the kind of fight Ryu would be good at against honestly weaker opponents with a neat bag of tricks on their side. he's shown much better reflexes than either of them and his skill level is one that would make Akihiko jealous. Mitsuru's more questionable because she'd definitely focus on range more but for those two? the fight goes to hand to hand sooner than later and the only thing Persona are going to do is get kicked in the face.
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Ryu would break his fist on a Persona. They're extremely far above anything he has or ever will deal with.

Mitsuru MAYBE trains some but the vast majority of her time is spent on strategy and being a leader. She's just insanely talented at everything.
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KamikazePotato posted...

'Akihiko prizes his own physical strength' -> 'Akihiko's Persona doesn't add much to him' is a huge logical leap. Akihiko likes training his body because it means a lot to him on a personal level, not because his Persona doesn't matter anymore. Having a Persona is a HUGE deal and effectively makes the user's physical prowess matter a lot less. Almost everyone in the Persona series is completely untrained before getting a Persona, but upon getting a Persona they become capable of great things. Case in point: Mitsuru is likely stronger than him and she doesn't train at all. One of the strongest party members in P4 is Yosuke, and he works at a supermarket. Personas are mental projections.

That's not a logical leap when he's literally using his own physical strength instead of his persona in a situation in which people's lives are at risk. He's not that much of an idiot, and if anyone knows how strong he is physically and how strong his own persona is, it'd be himself.

It's also even more telling in that most of your party members are for the most part untrained, so it's no wonder that given a Persona, it's their most effective weapon (especially against Shadows, which the plot inconsistently pushes as things that can only be defeated by Persona-users). But that's like saying a mage in a game is inherently stronger than a physical fighter with no magic could ever be.

It's also like Devil Survivor, where the Harmonizer program makes the humans who use it capable of surviving attacks from demons and damaging them with their own attacks, yet conventional gunfire without harmonizers active does almost nothing to demons and will completely wreck the people who use harmonizers in a fight. Having one strong weapon doesn't make you instantly stronger than someone who's better at something else instead.

Without a Persona, Akihiko is more or less a B-tier Street Fighter. With a Persona he can fight the physical embodiment of death.

And this, this is just loaded as hell. This is extrapolating out beating Kefka as universal hype for the entire FF6 playable cast, except they don't even particularly BEAT Nyx.
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Akihiko's answer to being mugged by a guy with a gun and a guy with a knife was to kung-fu them while waxing poetic about not being able to find worthy opponents. Just saying, *that* is his personality in a nutshell
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Akihiko uses his own physical strength instead of a Persona because it's what he does. He trains and he moves fast and he likes punching things. He still loses to Yu, because a Persona means a lot more.

Mages aren't inherently stronger than physical fighters but Personas aren't magic, and they in fact are inherently stronger than people in general, by a lot

Guns don't wreck harmonizer users in Devil Survivor, you fight people with guns and win

Beating Kefka is a gargantuan 16-man affair, and Nyx is stronger than Kefka regardless

Ryu's status in mercs topics these days is stupid, he's gone from one of the more underrated mercs to being one of the most overrated
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